HQ tax?

[niiai]

I am having a hard time fielding what HQ to use.

I used to play hand flamer acolytes in trucks with ridge runners in the 8th codex, with ridge runners backup.

But the new codex is all the hype train. I am loving all the new toys. Come one come all!

That means purestrains genestealers, abberants (who did amazing last game) rockgrinders and of course ranged ridgerunners for ranged support.

You opservant disciples of the four armed emperor and pauper princesses might see that none of those units are in fact core.

In the lists I have build I have mostly reduced the troops to be small units that do actions, or put out crossfire tokens and trigger exposed.* Neophytes, Accolytes and hyrbid Metamorphs and bikes are our 'only' core units.**

Magus can cast spells. Patriarch can cast spells and fight. But the rest do nothing out of core: Primus boosts core. Iconward only resurect core, and do not give genestealers +1 to charge. Alphus only boost core.

I guess it is not so much a rant, as an inquiry into how you use your HQ in your list building? Maiby I just stubbornly in sist on using the wrong units.

*Throwing away 60 point Accolytes to put out crossfire tokens and trigger exposed might not be very cost effective. Thoughts are welcome.

** I actually do not mind our core units. The accolyte carried me on their back in the old codex as one of the most versatile units in the game. Neophytes and bikes have several potensial uses. Only hybrid Metamorphs are quite limited. I am just not using many of these.

[kazetanade]

I think you're using the wrong cult, and less the wrong HQs. With the way your list is building, you can probably afford to have less HQs.

If you're using a lot of Purestrains and Abbies, I'd consider a TH list over PP. The S+M boosts are helpful. Likewise, it gives your Patty + Primus the ability to be both smash characters that you can use in a pinch, when normally you may not want to. It also benefits Grinders, just not the Abbies as much since they don't get THAT much of a boost for S9, unless you face a lot of Crusher Stampede.

If you're planning to use 3 RockGrinders like me, then another consideration is Impassioned + Industrial Affinity. This makes Abberants hyper accurate, makes Rock Grinders effective in both phases (and hyper accurate in melee), makes the best Acolyte weapon stand out even more, makes Neophytes really flexible - it buffs almost every element of the army except for Purestrains, who get a fringe benefit vs -1 to hit in combat.

In most cases, the Patty is overpriced and not really effective, so unless you want multiple WLT (so far there hasn't been a real push IMO for it), you can make use of a Primus and Magus as base HQs. The Magus is a want for sure with Unwilling Orb and Gestalt Consciousness.

If you don't use CORE that much you could probably even not use the Primus, but having 1 or 2 CORE units on the ground is helpful for positioning and giving your Primus + Nexos something to do. Bikes are a great candidate for this, benefitting from both of Primus' abilities easily even if its just a small kill unit of double demos.

[niiai]

Perhaps I should have said less. In my list core units mostly hold objectives /trigger exposed.

None of the non psyker HQs do anything. I am not paying 80 points to give 10 Neophytes re-roll 1. Instead I would just take more Neophytes for 60. I am not taking to many HQ. I am taking the two I need to run a detachment.

[wormlord666]

I think the core matter is an all or nothing deal in many cases. Either you go for example, all in on it and bring the correct characters for what you need, or else you skip the core buffs and then you can just run minimal HQ.
I´m not sure about your list, but one option might be to go to two patrols instead, have two patriarchs and no other HQ. Patriarch do more than Magus if you decide to make them fighty and play them aggressively. If you need a back field support psyker then magus is good.

[kazetanade]

You meant to ask how others are using their HQs?

Primarily I'm bringing a Magus and a Primus. The Primus buffs my bikes and my RRs possibly on T1, then buffs my Neophytes on T2 onwards.

That T1 bike buff is a big deal - if you can get off xfire and xposed (maybe I can call it XX?), its T1 6 shot bomb with 3+ rr1s 2+ rr1s ap-3 3D, which can be done again during the fight phase. This should kill any kind of obj holding unit that isn't a horde, and might possibly break non-Transhuman targets. This kind of reliability is SUPER important for gsc to survive early game.

The Alphus is just a sniper- she's OK, her buff is a bit wonky due to some change in mechanics somewhere during the design stage, her best target is for Big Bike Squads who aren't just a xfire proc or directed demo man - which exists in primarily a CORE orientated list under Pauper Prince banners. Or for 20 Neophytes in general, just to avoid the need for natural xpose (again bypassing the need for a dedicated XX unit).

Iconward works less easily, but could be a sidepunch no one is expecting in a big brained ds game with good old FAE. The icon effect also lends itself to the PP list with big bikes or Neophytes/Acolytes just regenerating.

Patriarch is the super odd one out. I can't find a good use for him since he's hitting prowess kinda sucks. It's not good, it's not bad, it kind of just exists, and he gives no notable buffs to the entire GSC faction which is a wtf moment (Fearless down to ignore attrition modifiers feels kinda awful if not completely irrelevant). He's only useful if you want multiple WLTs, which is a thing to consider in named Cults cuz their WLTs are pretty decent.

If you're doing mostly non-core builds, then building a Patty/Magus batt is decent for HQs, giving you access to a support psyker who mitigates MW from psychic and someone who can aggressively claim Psychic Interrogation for scoring. Ditto x2 for FotHM lists. Patty/Primus is also a strong combination in TH specifically to get 2 characters that hit for decent damage at decent strength and decent reliability.

Instead of HQs though - you should be looking at how to maximize some of the crazy characters. I had COMPLETELY missed out on how good the saboteur is, and not because of her gun! But because she can come in and reliability deal 4D MW to EACH VEHICLE/MC MODEL within 4" of her, and also deal 1D MW to each INFANTRY MODEL within 4" of her. Other than fearing auspex, this pretty much cuts people in half on arrival.

Melee sanctus is another one - he's bashed as bad cuz of the sniper sanctus utility, but his MW output is not to be scoffed at.

[wormlord666]

I suppose you use Lying in wait on the sabotour to place 3,1” outside an enemy and then place the explosive marker inside 3”, right? Sneaky trick. Could be great against elite infantry or vehicle heavy lists. It is expensive though, because she will die afterwards. I suppose she could sneak her way up the board as well and try to walk up to the targets. It would be hillarious if it could work. The look on that ork-players face when his buggies take 12mw from a tiny character would be wonderful to see.

[kazetanade]

Feb 10, 2022 9:24:00 GMT wormlord666 said:

I suppose you use Lying in wait on the sabotour to place 3,1” outside an enemy and then place the explosive marker inside 3”, right? Sneaky trick. Could be great against elite infantry or vehicle heavy lists. It is expensive though, because she will die afterwards. I suppose she could sneak her way up the board as well and try to walk up to the targets. It would be hillarious if it could work. The look on that ork-players face when his buggies take 12mw from a tiny character would be wonderful to see.

She's very anti-vehicle, and will hurt multi-model vehicle units or tightly clumped vehicles the most. Such as with Dreadnoughts crowding the centre, 3 man Talos units, GSC Ridgerunners, Crusher Stampede crowding around a Maleceptor/Malanthrope, Devilfishes and Hammerheads/Skyrays/Riptides hiding behind Obscurring, even Custodes Bikers or SM Melta bikers.

Then she gets a further 2d3 shots of S8 D4!! vs Vehicles, basically killing vehicles straight up. Vs Bikes she's basically a Atalan bike squad throwing a demo danger close. She's got a lot of potential, although yes she is a suicide character, much like the Kellermorph.

[purestrain]

Shes D3 vs vehicles, her bomb does 4mws to them.

I still think her best bet is to give her the relic pistol and setup long range attacks with exposed units from jackals and the like

[beetlejuice]

Feb 10, 2022 9:24:00 GMT wormlord666 said:

I suppose you use Lying in wait on the sabotour to place 3,1” outside an enemy and then place the explosive marker inside 3”, right? Sneaky trick. Could be great against elite infantry or vehicle heavy lists. It is expensive though, because she will die afterwards. I suppose she could sneak her way up the board as well and try to walk up to the targets. It would be hillarious if it could work. The look on that ork-players face when his buggies take 12mw from a tiny character would be wonderful to see.

This doesnt work. Plant explosives is an action that starts in the command phase. If you deploy at the end of the movement phase with lying in wait you have to wait until next turn to perform the action .

[niiai]

Feb 10, 2022 21:32:47 GMT beetlejuice said:

Feb 10, 2022 9:24:00 GMT wormlord666 said:

I suppose you use Lying in wait on the sabotour to place 3,1” outside an enemy and then place the explosive marker inside 3”, right? Sneaky trick. Could be great against elite infantry or vehicle heavy lists. It is expensive though, because she will die afterwards. I suppose she could sneak her way up the board as well and try to walk up to the targets. It would be hillarious if it could work. The look on that ork-players face when his buggies take 12mw from a tiny character would be wonderful to see.

This doesnt work. Plant explosives is an action that starts in the command phase. If you deploy at the end of the movement phase with lying in wait you have to wait until next turn to perform the action .

This is a miss nomer from her reveal when we did not have all the GSC rules.

Turns out, if you character has a command phase abilaty and you sett up underground, you can do it the turn they are revealed.

This is in fact some A+++ rule writing. Meaning we avoid a lot of 'could be good, but the timing does not work'.

As people looked at the sabotour the main 'trick' everybody point out (especially if you do not mention it exsplisitly) is that you can give her a relic gun! Now she gets crossfire bombs. It went some more weeks before the other shoe drops:

Play her with lying in wait. Perform her plant bomb abilaty when she is revealed. It is finished in the end of the movement phase. She can detonate in the end of the movement phase. Bingo bongo. We have the potensial first AOE rule in the game again. (I am not happy about this. As phasing out models takes such a long time. I am also not shure she is worth it at 100 points. Potensially with the relic gun as well.) But from a rules perspective it is all good.

[kazetanade]

You don't necessarily need the relic gun to make it work, although it does make her slightly more consistent with it - its more of getting the relic gun makes her a 1 model xfire xpose enabler like the Kellermorph while also doing damage on arrival.

I did miss that her gimmick triggers on 2+ vs bikes, but only does 1D, so its nowhere near as usable as I thought vs bikers.

As highlighted, GSC that come in from Underground, can use their command phase abilities on arrival. For the Saboteur this is probably a happy accident I'll be honest- her design is clearly "I am area denial" considering she has a strategem AND an ability built in to deny access to objectives, AND an ability to grab objectives safe from ranged reprisal. I don't think this will be FAQed away though so it's up to you if it's worth the hassle.

There's definitely a fair share of misses though. The Nexos is definitely one - the nexos passing ability only works on the Primus coming down from Deepstrike, as he only passes Primus Jackal and Clamavus, and both Jackal and Clamavus are nominated, meaning the opportunity to extend their range passed when they were placed (and you have to place them first anyway because Nexos needs to nominate them when nearby).

The Jackal is also a big miss, which you can tell from the Nexos' rules writing - she had some other buffs in place which were changed to a personal buff.

Personally, if the Nexos' rule replicated the effect instead of extended it, it would fix that problem immediately. But he's been given the best relic in our arsenal apparently so he'll stay even if he doesn't have that great a role in the army most times. I just view it as 50pts for xfire markers, and the rest are happy extra.

[beetlejuice]

Feb 10, 2022 21:49:39 GMT niiai said:

Feb 10, 2022 21:32:47 GMT beetlejuice said:

This doesnt work. Plant explosives is an action that starts in the command phase. If you deploy at the end of the movement phase with lying in wait you have to wait until next turn to perform the action .

This is a miss nomer from her reveal when we did not have all the GSC rules.

Turns out, if you character has a command phase abilaty and you sett up underground, you can do it the turn they are revealed.

This is in fact some A+++ rule writing. Meaning we avoid a lot of 'could be good, but the timing does not work'.

As people looked at the sabotour the main 'trick' everybody point out (especially if you do not mention it exsplisitly) is that you can give her a relic gun! Now she gets crossfire bombs. It went some more weeks before the other shoe drops:

Play her with lying in wait. Perform her plant bomb abilaty when she is revealed. It is finished in the end of the movement phase. She can detonate in the end of the movement phase. Bingo bongo. We have the potensial first AOE rule in the game again. (I am not happy about this. As phasing out models takes such a long time. I am also not shure she is worth it at 100 points. Potensially with the relic gun as well.) But from a rules perspective it is all good.

Underground: If a unit set up underground has any abilities that are used in your Command phase (e.g. Meticulous Planner), then the first time that unit is set up on the battlefield, it can use any or all of those abilities as if it were your Command phase

Meticulous planner: Meticulous Planner: In your Command phase, select one friendly <CULT> CORE unit within 9" of this model. Until the start of your next Command phase, each time a model in that unit makes an attack, re-roll a wound roll of 1.

Deploy Explosives: This model can perform the following action:

Plant Explosives (Action): One REDUCTUS SABOTEUR model from your army can start to perform this action in your Command phase. This action is completed at the end of your Movement phase. If this action is successfully completed, place a Reductus explosives marker within 1" of the model that performed this action and that model cannot perform this action again. If that model is destroyed, remove its Reductus explosives marker from the battlefield.


I still believe this doesn’t work. Underground let’s you use a command phase ability when set up, like pick this unit to get this. Explosives is explicitly different from such abilities by being an action that starts in the command phase. There is no mention of being allowed to perform actions in a later phase.

Could this be the neatest rules writing ever by GW to allow planting bombs from deepstrike immediately? Possibly

Is it a wishful thinking type of rules interpretation and more likely an exploit not neccessarily allowed raw even? Imho the more likely case.

Feel free to play it as you want. I would judge call this at every event and would not make a list with this gimmick if not pre event FAQed as allowed.

[wormlord666]

I believe you are correct, Beetlejuice, ” the drop-action-bomb-scenario” is probably not intended and will probably not stick, unfortunayely

[niiai]

The reducto sabotour has 5 abilaties:

Clandestine
Conseal
Deploy Exsplosive
Reductus Exsplosives
Unquestioning Loyality

One of these is a) an abilaty (as defined above) b) used in the command phase (it speseify the timing within the abilaty.) This abilaty is Deploy Exsplosives.

Those to requirements a) and b) are what the Conseal rule looks for. Therefore it qualifies. Also note that Conseal spesificlaly calls out 'as though it was the command phase.' You start doing the action.

Now you just follow the rest of the rules. The action is finished in the end of the movement phase. And you can denote the bomb in the end of the movement phase.

On thing that is slightly different then some of the other command abilaties is that it is an action. But nothing in conseal cares about that, it does currently allow it.

In this case it is Rules As Written. We do not know if it is Rules As Intended. And that goes for either side of RAI, considering how bad the plant Exsplosive abilaty is. However, I hardly see a 100 point sueside units that might deal damage as gamebreaking. It is probably better to stand in cover and shoot bombs the regular way with the relic gun.

[hivefleetkerrigan]

RAW, I'd allow it. I think GW will FAQ this one away though. It does look like a very fun niche play.