I cant beat this...

[dc0315]

Why dont any guard play lists similar to this?


++ Battalion Detachment 0CP (Imperium - Astra Militarum) [100 PL, 11CP, 1,820pts] ++

+ Configuration +

Battle Size [12CP]: 3. Strike Force (101-200 Total PL / 1001-2000 Points)

Detachment Command Cost

Regimental Doctrine: Regiment: Cadian

+ Stratagems +

Tank Ace [-1CP]

+ HQ +

Tank Commander [12 PL, 250pts]: Lascannon, Turret-mounted Demolisher Siege Cannon, Warlord
. 2 Multi-meltas

Tank Commander [12 PL, 250pts]: Lascannon, Turret-mounted Demolisher Siege Cannon
. 2 Multi-meltas

Tank Commander [12 PL, 250pts]: Lascannon, Turret-mounted Demolisher Siege Cannon
. 2 Multi-meltas

+ Troops +

Infantry Squad [3 PL, 55pts]
. 9x Guardsman: 9x Lasgun
. Sergeant: Laspistol

Infantry Squad [3 PL, 55pts]
. 9x Guardsman: 9x Lasgun
. Sergeant: Laspistol

Infantry Squad [3 PL, 55pts]
. 9x Guardsman: 9x Lasgun
. Sergeant: Laspistol

Infantry Squad [3 PL, 55pts]
. 9x Guardsman: 9x Lasgun
. Sergeant: Laspistol

Infantry Squad [3 PL, 55pts]
. 9x Guardsman: 9x Lasgun
. Sergeant: Laspistol

Infantry Squad [3 PL, 55pts]
. 9x Guardsman: 9x Lasgun
. Sergeant: Laspistol

+ Heavy Support +

Manticore [8 PL, 145pts]: Full Payload, Heavy Bolter

Manticore [8 PL, 145pts]: Full Payload, Heavy Bolter

+ Dedicated Transport +

Chimera [5 PL, 75pts]: Heavy Bolter, Multi-laser

Chimera [5 PL, 75pts]: Heavy Bolter, Multi-laser

Chimera [5 PL, 75pts]: Heavy Bolter, Multi-laser

Chimera [5 PL, 75pts]: Heavy Bolter, Multi-laser

Chimera [5 PL, 75pts]: Heavy Bolter, Multi-laser

Chimera [5 PL, 75pts]: Heavy Bolter, Multi-laser

++ Total: [100 PL, 11CP, 1,820pts] ++

He has more stuff, cant remember what. The jist is this. All Infantry in chimeras. Chimeras act as screens.tank commanders shoot 2d6 rerolling shots S10 ap-3 D6 damage. Manticores fire 3 damage flat, 2d6 shots at hive guard(essentially doing the job our hive guard do but better and far less renowned in the meta). You cant get to the commanders or manticores because of all the chimeras. T2 chimeras move up on objectives and once u destroy 1 or 2 the infantry pop put on the objectives. If they start 1st your monsters are dead, if you have blobs of Infantry your blobs are dead due to so much blast.

How do i counter this with lists which are great in todays meta?(Crusher stampede, hive guard, etc)

Edit: theres 2 atropaths for spells like +1 save & -1 to hit.

[kazetanade]

With a standard Crusher Stampede?

Harpy into the Manticores and keep them tagged. Dima into a tank com, spend cp to fight it into another tank com, don't bother touching the transports, or double shoot HG into a transport then into its contents. The transport trick is a pretty poor one if you don't fall for it, since it's easy to steal control from a single non-obsec model.

They went first? Position HG into or behind Dense so it's 5+ to hit on the Manticores. Problem mostly solved.

This shouldn't be a problem list for you honestly.

[dc0315]

If he starts 1st the dimas are both dead. Thats 6D6 shots at S10 D6 damage each. If i start 1st i cant touch the tank coms because theyre surrounded by chimeras, if i pop 1, infantry come out to take space for dima. Manticores are also surrounded by chimeras. And theyre 3 damage flat, if 6 go through from 4d6 shots on hive guard ive lost the unit, if 4 go through, the unit is useless.

[asvic]

Feb 2, 2022 9:45:03 GMT dc0315 said:

If he starts 1st the dimas are both dead. Thats 6D6 shots at S10 D6 damage each. If i start 1st i cant touch the tank coms because theyre surrounded by chimeras, if i pop 1, infantry come out to take space for dima. Manticores are also surrounded by chimeras. And theyre 3 damage flat, if 6 go through from 4d6 shots on hive guard ive lost the unit, if 4 go through, the unit is useless.

Demolishers have a 29" threat range, just redeploy via wt or something, you can cover that distance easily with swormied dima.

[trashcan01]

Basically focus on playing the mission.
If his tanks are backed into a corner, all you need to do is keep him there and tag them with something (even Lictor would do).

You can also tri-point Chimera to keep your monsters safe from shooting, then give one of them Kraken for 1CP, fall back and charge.
Honestly, this Astra Militarum list looks good on paper, but I have a feeling that on the tabletop it's good for the first turn or two. Once you clear the screens and push the tanks in the lower bracket, it's a win.

Also, are you playing with enough terrain? With -1hit,5++/6+++ your monsters should be safe from shooting, even from 3 Tank commanders.
What shines the most against lists like this are Flyrants with their 4++/6+++.

[dc0315]

Feb 2, 2022 11:54:24 GMT trashcan01 said:

Basically focus on playing the mission.
If his tanks are backed into a corner, all you need to do is keep him there and tag them with something (even Lictor would do).

You can also tri-point Chimera to keep your monsters safe from shooting, then give one of them Kraken for 1CP, fall back and charge.
Honestly, this Astra Militarum list looks good on paper, but I have a feeling that on the tabletop it's good for the first turn or two. Once you clear the screens and push the tanks in the lower bracket, it's a win.

Also, are you playing with enough terrain? With -1hit,5++/6+++ your monsters should be safe from shooting, even from 3 Tank commanders.
What shines the most against lists like this are Flyrants with their 4++/6+++.

yeah Flyrants are ace from turn 2 onwards. The problem is with obscuring terrain it doesnt help the dimas or the hierodules. Ive played against it 3 times, 2 times starting 2nd. 2 dimas and the hive guard die turn 1 and 1 scythed hierodule is almost dead. There's not much getting back after that 1st turn. The manticores doing flat 3 damage all across the board. The tank coms blast away genestealers and monsters alike. And the way he places the chimeras, theres no way youre touching anything but chimeras 🤬

I just see IG doung so badly and i never see a list like this in big tournaments. A chimera per 10 man squad on objectives becomes hard to shift when youve got 6 of those too.

[dc0315]

Feb 2, 2022 14:01:16 GMT dc0315 said:

Feb 2, 2022 11:54:24 GMT trashcan01 said:

Basically focus on playing the mission.
If his tanks are backed into a corner, all you need to do is keep him there and tag them with something (even Lictor would do).

You can also tri-point Chimera to keep your monsters safe from shooting, then give one of them Kraken for 1CP, fall back and charge.
Honestly, this Astra Militarum list looks good on paper, but I have a feeling that on the tabletop it's good for the first turn or two. Once you clear the screens and push the tanks in the lower bracket, it's a win.

Also, are you playing with enough terrain? With -1hit,5++/6+++ your monsters should be safe from shooting, even from 3 Tank commanders.
What shines the most against lists like this are Flyrants with their 4++/6+++.

yeah Flyrants are ace from turn 2 onwards. The problem is with obscuring terrain it doesnt help the dimas or the hierodules. Ive played against it 3 times, 2 times starting 2nd. 2 dimas and the hive guard die turn 1 and 1 scythed hierodule is almost dead. There's not much getting back after that 1st turn. The manticores doing flat 3 damage all across the board. The tank coms blast away genestealers and monsters alike. And the way he places the chimeras, theres no way youre touching anything but chimeras 🤬

I just see IG doung so badly and i never see a list like this in big tournaments. A chimera per 10 man squad on objectives becomes hard to shift when youve got 6 of those too, plus 60 guardsmen.

[swarm492]

I know this isn't really the answer you want but if your back really is up against the wall and you feel there really isn't anything you can do after trying several times stop playing the list if its taking the fun out of the game.

Tell the player your not interested in playing that list. If they want to play and have fun they will switch it up. If all they want is to win they will dig their heels in.

Your story reminds me of a local store I use to play at back in 5th edd when leafblower and air cav imperial guard was a big thing. The local guard player was really good and would travel for tournaments. He would bring his tournament army and use it if anyone wanted to take a crack at it. But he also brought another casual list just for fun pick up games.

He was a real nice guy.

[piersonsmuppet]

Prob need to work a malanthrope or some Venomthropes into the list. Mal will provide a more secure bubble, while Venoms will draw the Manticore fire from HG. Don’t forget Transhuman as well, Manticores go to 4+ vs Hive Guard, and 4x Venomthropes will survive 2x Manticores with Tanshuman. Another fix is to take ER on the HG, Manticore is AP2 so there is plenty of benefit. Those 2 Manticores only kill 1.7 HG through a -1 to-hit, transhuman, and a 3+ Sv in cover.

[afewveiws]

Ok so i had to look up the things in the list to know what to plan around but my play into this list would be to get stuck in fast. They cant shoot into melee and if you destroy a transport you can consolidate into something.

The threat from across the board is the manticore eagle missiles. Swarmy and some tgaurd can weather that storm once maybe twice. Maybe this is one of those cases of carnifexen for the win because the cannons are only allowed 1 target and the grinding advance dictates the second shot from the cannon most be at the same target so... more targets is better then thick targets in this match-up.

I could see the nid flyers doin well here and anything that can make contact with the eagle missile launchers... raveners maybe.

Alternative is to go heavier into hormagaunt squads (so sacraficing the monster mash special rules) and just drown them in bodies with a OOE to smash everything from the safty of charecter protection... this path also opens up gargoyles who might be able to fit their bases between all these tanks and shut down all the shooting for a turn... not sure though since i dont know how tight if a formation your opponent is using.

Its definitely a hard match up for our army mostly due to the sheer weight of fire they are able to drop on us but hey its a fun challenge.

Just try stuff and if you dont have what you need to try something, just proxy it up if possible.

[kazetanade]

1: Tank Commanders can't move if he's boxed himself in with Chimeras. Send a Harpy in and tag things, and the Dima will be safe. It's a max of 35".

2: Manticores hit on a 4+. Give your HG a malanthrope bubble, then Transhuman, and since you're playing heirodules/dima, you don't need that 2nd adaptation, give them ER, and the Manticores will do absolutely nothing. Literally (please do not swear) all. Your gameplan shouldn't be revolving around them anyway, but if you need them alive, it's more than possible.

3: You do NOT need to go balls deep with the Dima(s) on turn 1, especially if you go first. Run 2 Harpies so you have expendables to use first and target saturate.

4: once he opens a space (he inevitably has to in order to score with such a tiny list), the Dima goes in. The Dima is the one MC that can bypass all the blockers by jumping over them twice, and can even do so thrice by overrunning if there's a good target. If he doesn't open the space, he stays boxed in and scores (please do not swear) all. If he stays boxed in for 3 turns, he won't recover from obj.

3:

[nidzy]

I know how frustrating it is to get beat up by an off meta list that the internet tells you shouldn’t be good. This happened to me like 30 times in a row against tau during 5th and 6th when they were bad.

Good advice here though. In crusher those HG have a 5++ and can transhuman. Make sure they are leviathan for a good chance for one hg model to soak two of those 3 damage wounds.

I’ve beaten a guard list that had a lot of indirect fire and tanks with Forces recently. That list wasn’t as tuned as this list is but the concept still applies. In that case I killed 2 screening chimera chassis with hive guard, contents with stealers, using charge move and pile ins to get back and touch the artillery behind.

Also I recommend trying real hard to go first

[bigpig]

Can also consider the ignore AP1 and 2 adaptation for the HG. Or redeploy them off board and walk on turn 2 if he goes first. This is basically the "tailoring" issue that can come up when playing against the same group of people. Don't discount the "try to go first" advice. In these circumstances sometimes that is all that matters......

[piersonsmuppet]

Problem mainly sounds like the OP is doing a super aggressive deployment to win T1 if going first. Dimas have 24” Mv w/ SL and the Tank Commanders won’t be on the line if wrapped. Just deploy them 6” or more from your deployment line and they cannot die T1 when going second.