9th Edition Space Marines

[pingelpop]

Hey guys,

so sometimes I lose faith in balancing in Warhammer. I know that Space Marines are always a bit stronger and we currently still have an 8th edition codex. But what's going on with the order tactics alone?
Black Templar have a 5+ FnP and are allowed to re roll advance and charge rolls? In that sense, just a better mix of the Leviathan and Behemoth hive fleets?
Just a quick question if this is really the seriousness of Games Workshop ^^
Apart from that the Space Marines have many more rules per order and are already very strong from the profile values.

[No One]

Space marines are in a meh spot and to be honest I'd say our comp builds are better than their comp builds (though their casual builds are better than our casual builds). But also yes subfaction bonuses have improved drastically from their garbage state when our rules were printed, and SM get a lot more rules than our 8th ed Codex (they also get a mono faction bonus and a mono subfaction bonus): the flip side is that GW realised that 2 CP double tap was a mistake and stopped printing it, so SM don't get any super fun toys like that. Also note it's a 5+++ against MW only.

[niiai]

You are comparing apples and oranges here. Saying black Templars have x and y and we have squares makes no sence.

Space Marines have different streght and weaknesses then nids. Black Templars take some awful wow to get their bonuses. And they can not take psyker. One of nids better parts are that we have good psyker. Comparing them makes little or no sence.

Show me the hive guard that can shoot twice that is in the Space Marine codex. Good luck. Even eradicators only have 24" range and they need line of sight. Show me the SM versions of Swarmlord. They do not have it.

[infornography]

SM version of Swarmlord is Bobby G. Sure they aren't quite apples to apples, but they fill the same battlefield role of a unique character that acts as a force multiplier and beatstick in one. Bobby G of course costs more and is WAY better at it.

Overall though, I do agree that the codecies are adequately different that it is hard to compare cleanly. Also as for the argument that Space Marines are always better, that is not true. 5th and 6th edition they were solidly mid-tier. You had to have a VERY tuned list for them to do well. I don't know about 7th because I had put the hobby on hold that entire edition.

Warhammer 40k balance has always been tenuous. There are always factions that are clearly stronger than others. Tyranids have been king of the hill a couple times, though those times don't tend to last very long. Ideally Tyranids would be somewhere around the middle to bottom of the top tier armies. If they go above that the nerfs are fast and over compensating. If they end up below that they languish unloved and forgotten for years.

[niiai]

Two fun stories. Played a friend's friend in 8th edition. (I guess he is my friend to. Ronny, if you are reading this you are great!) Anyway, he had Bobby G, that was before GW started with points increase. He cost less then the Swarmlord, and he was better in every conceivable way. He had two points increases since then. And 9th edition has canned souo lists.

Second fun story: Tyranid where so dominating out of the 8th edition gates. A lot of 8th edition was about screening for deepstrike. But competetive tyranids basicly ran lists compiled of ripper swarm and flyrant. I think the norm was 8 flyrant. They could run 9, but I think they needed more troop slots or ran out of points. They had a minimum footprint and most of the army started in deepstrike. Tyranids where singel handedly* responsible for two rules changes. Have to start 50% or army on the table (got even more updated in 9th.) And you can only take 3 of each non tyranid units. So don't say nids are bad across the bord. We have had our days in the sun like Icarus. (The fool made his wings out of wax. We all know you make them out of the digested protein and bone of your foes!)

*There might have been other armies doing the same. But the hive tyrant was so good. He did all phases, movement, smiting in the psykick phase (no smite increases back then, so that might be a 3rd rules change), charges and fighting in the melee phase. Moral phase we ignored. Wow that was some wild days, I am very glad all those restrictions where put into place (or I would have to buy 7 new flying hive tyrants.)

[infornography]

I think they went overboard with the restrictions because Tyranids went from a top tier army to a lower midtier army almost overnight. And it did NOT last long.
The rule of three was LONG overdue though. That should have existed in every edition since they started really jacking with FOCs/detachments.

Bobby G was straight broken when 8th dropped. I think they went too far with his point increases too, but GW gonna GW.

[hivefleetkerrigan]

+1 on rule of three. I remember a thread from early 8e where a player was asking "what do I do if I'm facing tyranids? They're bringing 4 hive tyrants"

The top response was "bring 5 hive tyrants"

[LordPathos]

Jan 5, 2022 16:09:03 GMT hivefleetkerrigan said:

+1 on rule of three. I remember a thread from early 8e where a player was asking "what do I do if I'm facing tyranids? They're bringing 4 hive tyrants"

The top response was "bring 5 hive tyrants"

That'll learn 'em.

[gigasnail]

I think I had six in a list once. Good times. It really was a one trick pony codex though.