Kaze's List Testing Station

[windwalkerranger]

Dec 31, 2021 13:22:43 GMT No One said:

You run out of stuff (and also HQs): like replace the dimas/scythed, and now you don't have stuff that wants to play midfield, you're losing out on scoring pressure, and also durability. You get single target damage, but that's something you've already got, while you lack ability to take out multiple targets and threaten multiple objectives. Like you could either have 2 units that need to play together, and if one dies the other isn't too hard to deal with after (though not trivial to be fair), or 2 units that can play apart and both are problematic to remove.

Also you're a measly 7" and care about terrain, so sling isn't even a surefire delivery.

Yeah all true. But the search for an alternative already started with the challenge of moving hierodules around in the standard terrain layout. It was to the point that I wondered if dima's were the better choice (instead of scythed hiers). In that particular game I wanted to have a bunch of T8 so I preffered hierodules and they performed admirably, except maneuvering. It was bad to the point that I had to give up on Maleceptor protection.

But I hear you. Was thinking of pairing this guy up with a malanthroph and a duo of shooty fexes, followed by the swarmlord. I thought that could create an acceptable level of presence in the mid, but I definately will run out of stuff. And have no idea about the supporting crew for this.

[piersonsmuppet]

Would you need the Malathrope for support with Carnifex having built-in -1 to-hit? Another Fex would probably offer more to the block, and is another shooting bodyguard for OOE. In a non-FW list, a block of 3-6 hybrid Fexes backed by OOE could be a decent mid-board presence.

[windwalkerranger]

Dec 31, 2021 15:46:17 GMT piersonsmuppet said:

Would you need the Malathrope for support with Carnifex having built-in -1 to-hit? Another Fex would probably offer more to the block, and is another shooting bodyguard for OOE. In a non-FW list, a block of 3-6 hybrid Fexes backed by OOE could be a decent mid-board presence.

I wanted the malanthroph to carry the warlord trait required for this trick to work. It could be replaced with a broodlord, I guess... 

[piersonsmuppet]

Jan 1, 2022 15:33:55 GMT windwalkerranger said:

I wanted the malanthroph to carry the warlord trait required for this trick to work. It could be replaced with a broodlord, I guess... 

Is the WLT needed? W/ +d3A, full rr hits, and Levi exploding 6’s, OOE avgs 14 hits when rr’ing 1-4’s (Nothing in Rules preventing Gen’d attacks from getting exploding 6’s since it’s a new attack roll).

[kazetanade]

Rate rules section has something about new attacks generated cannot generate additional attacks. I think it can generate additional hits though. Just be sure to check that one out right before trying.

I'm a super not fan of the 6" exploding 6s wlt. It works for SM because they have volume from their units. The setup for theirs is already a bit awkward sometimes- it will be even more awkward for us.

OOE has 5A base? I think tagging +d3A and rerolls is enough, since you get a +2 in his kit for charging, so 5+ exploding on 2+ to hit as is. The WLT gives you 2 hits more, which a lot of work for not big gain.

I see 2 main problems with OOE - the first is HQ slots, as the relic holders have a fair bit of oomph in our armies, we'd have to trade one out. Assuming SL and 2 Flyrant builds, you could trade out the 2nd Hulk/Voidrant for him, and work with less psychic.

The second is protecting OOE until he's in range. I have issues getting a Dimachaeron far enough until people come into midfield, and he has 24" of movement. Granted, big base, but ignore terrain. With 7" on OOE, he needs to only do his thing from midfield, and I find this unequivocally hard to set up safely.

If I was going to run him, I'd do it as a Melee Fex wing - 3 cheap Fexes and him barrelling down a flank together. Understand this is 600pts tied up, so you need some really tight work on the other side to project threat at the same time. Screw midfield pressure support- just run them up and threaten the door.

[niiai]

Malaceotor and zonathropes can give you more spells outside the hq slott. If that is what you are into.

[windwalkerranger]

Jan 2, 2022 5:51:32 GMT kazetanade said:

Rate rules section has something about new attacks generated cannot generate additional attacks. I think it can generate additional hits though. Just be sure to check that one out right before trying.

I'm a super not fan of the 6" exploding 6s wlt. It works for SM because they have volume from their units. The setup for theirs is already a bit awkward sometimes- it will be even more awkward for us.

OOE has 5A base? I think tagging +d3A and rerolls is enough, since you get a +2 in his kit for charging, so 5+ exploding on 2+ to hit as is. The WLT gives you 2 hits more, which a lot of work for not big gain.

I see 2 main problems with OOE - the first is HQ slots, as the relic holders have a fair bit of oomph in our armies, we'd have to trade one out. Assuming SL and 2 Flyrant builds, you could trade out the 2nd Hulk/Voidrant for him, and work with less psychic.

The second is protecting OOE until he's in range. I have issues getting a Dimachaeron far enough until people come into midfield, and he has 24" of movement. Granted, big base, but ignore terrain. With 7" on OOE, he needs to only do his thing from midfield, and I find this unequivocally hard to set up safely.

If I was going to run him, I'd do it as a Melee Fex wing - 3 cheap Fexes and him barrelling down a flank together. Understand this is 600pts tied up, so you need some really tight work on the other side to project threat at the same time. Screw midfield pressure support- just run them up and threaten the door.

Yeah, this is more or less what I was thinking about him and wanted to see your perspective. I had seen the power of double exploding 6's through my friend's custom Space Wolves list where even a single model reaching into melee was eating large volumes of units by themselves and wanted to replicate the results, hence the insistence on the WLT. What about putting the OOE into a tyrannocyte and deepstrike him, and try charge into melee with help of some secondary charge reroller strategems (there's one where a synapse unit shots a model dead in a unit, onto which your models can reroll the charge, and one where they can reroll it if the target unit is lready in melee with a synapse unit?)

[piersonsmuppet]

Jan 2, 2022 5:51:32 GMT kazetanade said:

Rate rules section has something about new attacks generated cannot generate additional attacks. I think it can generate additional hits though. Just be sure to check that one out right before trying.

OOE’s rules have additional attacks can’t generate additional attacks, and rare rules has additional hits can’t benefit from rules affecting attack roll. 5+’s gen additional attacks and 6’s gen additional hits, so just no rolling additional attacks for the additional hits gen’d from unmod 6’s.

[kazetanade]

7" rerollable is when you start to reach "reliable" charges. The rest are "decent" but not "consistent".

Having played GSC a lot in early 8th, failing that charge was so disastrous and damaging - because the units are geared in a way to be completely useless if you don't make them in, and they're so expensive, and are easy to kill. OOE is the same. I would say, try it if OOE is a low priority unit that is a "good to have" in the gameplan, and not crucial to success.

On a personal note, I do not ever rely on 8" rerollable charges to make game winning plays. Desperation plays, or "good to have" plays, sure. "Game winning" with low downside if fail, sure. 8" 3D6 discard 1 rerollable is about as good as it gets tbh and even then I wouldn't really want to do that too often (it's also extremely restrictive) on how to make happen). Let's not even talk about 9" rerollables, which I know breaks 50% chance to succeed.

One other way I can think of using OOE effectively would be in a mass FW kaiju list. When OOE is surrounded by huge monsters, he'll never get shot, and all FW MCs want to settle down in midfield or their zone rather than your own zone. Even just throwing him and SL forward amongst the monsters work. Or, if you have a single strong anchor, like a big unit of Warriors or TG, place him somewhere near that.


Edit: accidentally deleted, apparently OOE outpaces TG. That's a pretty big consideration considering damage rolls and the use of adaptation, and points. But ofc, OOE doesn't hold ground in the same way, so that's a toss up.

[niiai]

Old one eye stil benefits from look out sir. So if you have something he can move up with (gaunts, warriors) you are quite safe. He also have that super look out sir for carnifexes VS tricky people. But carnifexes suck.

[hivefleetkerrigan]

Jan 5, 2022 13:23:09 GMT niiai said:

Old one eye stil benefits from look out sir. So if you have something he can move up with (gaunts, warriors) you are quite safe. He also have that super look out sir for carnifexes VS tricky people. But carnifexes suck.

I'd you bring carnifex, his rules are better than look out sir. It's not that he gains lookout sir next to carnifex, it's that he flat out cannot be targeted if he's within 3" of one, even if he's in front of the other carnifex. Definitely a fun rule!