2000p leviathan brigade

[spreelock]

Hello, I'd like some feedback for my list, not entirely sure if I'm doing it right. My biggest concern is melee, but otherwise I think this list has some good balance. I'm super hyped about the new leviathan, so I'd like to include the new stuff.

Leviathan brigade
-hq- hive tyrant (heavy venom cannon, monstrous boneswords) 195 (warlord: swarmleader, relic: adaptive neural lobe, power: onslaught, catalyst)
-hq- tervigon (massive talons, stinger salvo, synaptic link upgrade) 205 (power: catalyst)
-hq- tervigon (massive talons, stinger salvo, synaptic link upgrade) 205 (power: catalyst)
-troop- termagants (30, 15x devourer, 15x fleshborer) 180
-troop- termagants (30, 15, devourer, 15x fleshborer) 180
-troop- ripper swarms (3) 36
-troop- ripper swarms (3) 36
-troop- ripper swarms (3) 36
-troop- ripper swarms (3) 36
-elite- lictor 37
-elite- lictor 37
-elite- hive guard (6, impaler cannon) 270
-fast- gargoyles (10) 70
-fast- gargoyles (10) 70
-fast- raveners (6, talons, rending claws) 132
-heavy- biovore 50
-heavy- biovore 50
-heavy- trygon prime 175

Total 2000 / 12 CP

Tactics; biovores and 2x rippers hold backfield objectives, termagants go for flanking objectives supported by tervigon. Lictors and 2x rippers deep strike for scoring secondaries. The hive tyrant, hive guard and gargoyles secure the center of the board. The trygon prime and raveners deep strike as a counter melee threat.

Secondaries;
- retrieve octarius data
- engage on all fronts / linebreaker
- psychic interrogation

So, how is it doing? I've not decided yet about adaptive physiology, either dermic symbiosis for trygon prime, or enhanced resistance for hive guard. Also, should I include an additional warlord trait?

[No One]

So, there's no reason for this to be a brigade. While I think gargs/ravs could have a place with the new obsec strat, 3 (and non-MSU rav) seems too much: unless you have a solid plan for these, don't include. Similarly biovores, and the pile of MSU rippers. Rippers just...don't contribute much. 2 lictors should generally be sufficient for secondaries, and terms are generally better for screening. A ripper or 2 for additional engage/take advantage of good hiding spots is fine. 4 is a bit much.

Then we get to damage:
- Hive guard: good
- Devilgants: again good, but 15/15 is a bad split, I'd just go 20/10, and the terv game plan hurts their ability to be damage dealers
- Trygon prime: mediocre. Also take AG. Not sure it's worth the pts for prime, but you're Levi, so...maybe?

That's...it really. Tyrant is support (take MRC, boneswords are just bad outside of relic), tervs are support, rest is tech.

Without making massive changes to the list, I'd suggest dropping a terv (or taking an extra gaunt squad I guess): if you get a gaunt squad wiped (they will), you've got a 200 pt deadweight. Drop the ravs (or a garg and go min ravs), the biovores, and most of the rippers.

With the pts, just...take more damage things. Melee's eh without Swarmy, but you could run something like warriors+broodlord instead of the tyrant. Upgrade the tyrant to flyrant to actually do something, more devilgants, more HG etc.

Other things: relics, -1 to wound and 5+ regen probably only things worthwhile. Adapt, just dermic on trygon, maybe a terv or enhanced resistance if still double terv: redeploy WLT may be worth instead, but don't think so with your list.

[spreelock]

Hey, thanks for the feedback. You're right about brigade, it's not necessary, but that's just how I've built it. The trygon and raveners are dedicated melee counter, so that's my plan, I'd rather not change them. Biovores are nice utility asset to camp at backfield, and summon some spore mines to harassment and movement block shenanigans. And they can fire out of LoS, so again, I'd like to keep them. Rippers and gargoyles are throw-away units, used to grab objectives and board control, I could trade couple of rippers, but that doesn't net much points. Speaking of points, I had ~30 points to spare, so I added some devilgaunts and tyrants boneswords. 15-15 mix of gaunts is quite nice, tervigon can summon extra ten with fleshborer each turn, so opponent would have to kill at least 15 before devourer gaunts are perished. The tyrant is mostly for support the hive guard, and boneswords have reliable damage, plus an extra attack. The reason I asked for feedback was exactly the damage output, I think this plays very well objectives and the mission, but as you've mentioned, more damage dealers could perform better. As for the relics and other stuff, I'm quite set with the trait and relic, and probably go for dermic symbiosis on trygon (it's the weakest of monsters, so that should make it more durable).

[No One]

spreelock said:

15-15 mix of gaunts is quite nice, tervigon can summon extra ten with fleshborer each turn, so opponent would have to kill at least 15 before devourer gaunts are perished.

By 20/10 I mean 20 devilgants: since as you say, it's just the 10 to res, it doesn't really help you much to have extra fleshborers.

The tyrant is mostly for support the hive guard, and boneswords have reliable damage, plus an extra attack

They don't: you're S6 AP-2. MRC cost 20 pts less, and are...I think it's always better unless you spend the CP to voracious, at which point...I think boneswords are about the same. Alternatively if you really want flat 3 and don't mind spending for voracious, take a talon: trade 1 attack for rr 1s (which with 4 attacks, is slightly less on average but more reliable) and an extra AP.

But I think just save the pts and swap some rippers for a warrior squad with link.

As for the relics and other stuff, I'm quite set with the trait and relic, and probably go for dermic symbiosis on trygon (it's the weakest of monsters, so that should make it more durable).

That was aimed at extra WLT/relic.

[zimko]

Oct 19, 2021 7:34:26 GMT spreelock said:

The trygon and raveners are dedicated melee counter, so that's my plan, I'd rather not change them. 

Does this mean you're planning to start the Trygon on the board? Neither of these two units are melee counters. A Trygon might be considered a tactical missile if you give it Adrenal Glands and attempt a charge from deep strike, but raveners can barely melee themselves out of a plastic bag. Are you sticking to this plan because these are the models you have? That's fine but if you'd like to improve your list then I suggest using genestealers as a melee counter instead, preferably with Swarmlord on the table but you could also just hide the genestealers until they're needed for some close encounters.

And why stick to a brigade? There's no benefit over just taking a battalion and having more flexibility with your force organization chart.

[piersonsmuppet]

Oct 19, 2021 7:34:26 GMT spreelock said:

Hey, thanks for the feedback. You're right about brigade, it's not necessary, but that's just how I've built it. The trygon and raveners are dedicated melee counter, so that's my plan, I'd rather not change them. Biovores are nice utility asset to camp at backfield, and summon some spore mines to harassment and movement block shenanigans. And they can fire out of LoS, so again, I'd like to keep them. Rippers and gargoyles are throw-away units, used to grab objectives and board control, I could trade couple of rippers, but that doesn't net much points. Speaking of points, I had ~30 points to spare, so I added some devilgaunts and tyrants boneswords. 15-15 mix of gaunts is quite nice, tervigon can summon extra ten with fleshborer each turn, so opponent would have to kill at least 15 before devourer gaunts are perished. The tyrant is mostly for support the hive guard, and boneswords have reliable damage, plus an extra attack. The reason I asked for feedback was exactly the damage output, I think this plays very well objectives and the mission, but as you've mentioned, more damage dealers could perform better. As for the relics and other stuff, I'm quite set with the trait and relic, and probably go for dermic symbiosis on trygon (it's the weakest of monsters, so that should make it more durable).

You're really handicapping feedback by saying that you'd really not change most aspects of the list. If you are concerned about damage, the parts you have mentioned not wanting to change are the worst offenders (Biovore, Ravener, Trygon). 

One way to improve your damage would be to go to a 2/1 split for Warrior/Tervigon Links, but would require dropping some combination of Raveners, Rippers, and/or Biovores. Gants w/ BS 3+ and rr 1's to-wound are better than BS4+ and rr 1/2's to-wound (unless T3, but those are dead w/o buffs anyway). The Tervigon buff is honestly best on the HG, since the gants naturally rr 1's to-wound at 20+ models. So really only 1 Terv link is necessary, and slapping the -1 to-wound relic on that one wouldn't be a bad idea.

[kazetanade]

Biovores do not create movement block if:

1. The enemy is primarily infantry
2. The enemy has FLY
3. You generate less than 4-6 spores
4. You go second.

Play them understanding that they are a niche, occassionally useful tech piece that is overcosted and doesnt do very much if it hits. Note also that most backfield units can actually just cop a few of those shots or sporemines at no cost to them - in fact it takes a single bolter shot to kill them, so dont expect many armies to be particularly afraid or inconvenienced by them. They should be changed out for tools which are more effective if you can afford to.

If it's out of LOS shooting you're after, HG are much better at:

- Backfield objective camping
- Harassing the enemy (with meaningful threat and damage to backline units and threatening to remove or actually remove them off objectives)
- Taking out key targets so that movement block isnt even a required consideration.

The Trygon is interesting - he's a decent combat monster that's overpriced due to his transport function. He's expensive for output unless you also transport something that needs to get up close and personal, then make the charge with him and smash some face. He's reasonable starting on the board, but will die quickly if focused, and his main cost in transport/DS capabilities of course being wasted.

Ravs are not going to fight their way out of a paperbag. You'd need to tag them with reroll to hit, exploding hits, autowound on 6s, and then feed them into a blender where they'd perform worse than Genestealers without being as durable pt per pt, wound per wound, or output per wound. They're a bad pick for efficiency or good performance - just play Genestealers and run them out there to countercharge whatever's eating your face.

Where Ravs may have some value would be as a Shooting + Melee unit, rather than a pure melee unit - but that's contingent on them getting enough buffs to make their shooting meaningful and their combat impactful. Like all the rest, it takes a lot of buffs to make them do that. Genestealers currently require just a +1 to be a sizeable threat to all but the most efficient of statblocks, ie stuff like Bladeguard Vets and Ork Buggies, and the same buffs supercharge them to a marvelous degree.

Two Tervigons? Why? You dont even have 20 Boregants per unit to replace. That 2nd one is just a waste of space, for real.

You've got ONE shooting unit, and ONE decent, not even great, melee threat. Then you've got mountains of trash to throw at people, and 2 potentially useless units held in reserves eating up points. Your midfield holding is terrible with only Tervigons to keep Gants alive (and they wont keep anything alive honestly). I can basically tell you right now that nothing is going to go as per your plan when you put this on the table, and assuming you're building the army for it, you're going to end up with a lot of bad kits you wont be fielding often.

Summary:

1. Ditch the 2nd Tervigon. Even 1 is possibly too much, and I wouldnt make it without magnetizing its options to be a T-Fex when required.
2. Ditch the Ravs, get Genestealers instead. Get at least 16 of them.
3. You can assemble the Trygon/Prime; he's OK, just hard to use or maximize. Have a better plan and backup for him, cuz you're betting on a 50% or less chance of success on that 8" reroll.
4. If you want to play melee, get a Swarmlord into your fleet. He's our basic and more core enabler for melee centric/melee able builds due to his movement shenanigans.
5. Defensive builds need to STACK to actually get much value out of them. Each individual defensive buff contributes very little - but when you layer them on top of one another, they gain value multiplicatively. Considering your main defensive line is expected to be 60 Termagants, you may want to consider a Malanthrope + Tervigon at least to layer defenses on them. Ideally, you'd build around Malanthrope + Maleceptor + Cover + Leviathan + Tervigon to make it extremely hard for your opponents to just delete or chip away units, and force them to spend copius amounts of effort to remove even a single unit a turn. I remember a fair number of games won both old and new where enemies lost because they just couldnt muster the damage output to clear my Termagants or Hormagants, and small units leftover from earlier trashing just frustrates their game and scoring until the end.

[spreelock]

Hey guys, thanks for all the replies, I've read your comments and took alot of notes. So, as you've mentioned, there's no reason for going with brigade, so that's what I'm first correcting. And I don't yet have any models for Tyranids, I've sold my behemoth army couple of years ago (though I had some success with raveners back then, rerolling charges).

I wrote this second list, main focus on durability and more offence.

Tyranids leviathan battalion
-hq- hive tyrant (heavy venom cannon, monstrous bonesword and lashwhip) 185 (warlord: swarmleader, relic: adaptive neural lobe, power: catalyst, onslaught)
-hq- broodlord (synaptic link upgrade) 140 (power: catalyst)
-hq- broodlord (synaptic link upgrade) 140 (power: catalyst)
-troop- warriors (9, 3x venom cannon, 6x deathspitter, 9x boneswords, synaptic link upgrade) 276
-troop- genestealers (20) 260
-troop- genestealers (20) 260
-troop- rippers (3) 36
-troop- rippers (3) 36
-elite- lictor 37
-elite- hive guard (6, impalercannon) 270
-heavy- trygon prime (adrenal glands) 180
-heavy- trygon prime (adrenal glands) 180

Total 2000 / 12 cp

Secondaries;
- engage on all fronts/ linebreaker
- retrieve octarius data
- psychic interrogation

My tactics; rippers hold backfield objectives, warriors act as a screen for the hive tyrant and hive guard. Genestealers go for flanking objectives, supported by broodlord and trygon prime. Lictor deep strike for scoring secondaries.

So, now it has some less chaff, I'm also planning to use enhanced resistance for either hive guard or warriors. All the feedback is appreciated.

[piersonsmuppet]

GS (especially non-Kraken) almost require Swarm Lord in order to be effective. This list will actually have some trouble with ROD, you only have 1 unit (Lictor) that wants to be doing actions. The rest are too expensive to waste a turn of combat. Suggestions:

BL -> SL
2x20 GS -> 2x16 GS
1x3 ripper -> 1x10 Horms
2x Trygon Prime -> Trygon (only reason for Prime should be to take relics, wasted points here)

Prob will have leftover points, and maybe getting some Gargs or Sky Slashers to take advantage of rr 1's to-hit/to-wound could benefit with so many non-flying combat monsters.

[spreelock]

Hey guys, I altered my list a bit, still looking to improve it. I kinda like it now, not many things that I'd change. So how is it doing?

Tyranids leviathan battalion
-hq- hive tyrant (monstrous bonesword and lashwhip, heavy venom cannon) 185 (warlord: swarmleader, relic: adaptive neural lobe, power: catalyst, onslaught)
-hq- broodlord (synaptic link upgrade) 140 (power: catalyst)
-hq- broodlord (synaptic link upgrade) 140 (power: catalyst)
-troop- genestealers (20) 260
-troop- genestealers (20) 260
-troop- rippers (3) 36
-troop- rippers (3) 36
-elite- hive guard (6, impaler cannon) 270
-elite- lictor 37
-elite- lictor 37
-elite- venomthropes (3) 99
-fast- gargoyles (10) 70
-fast- gargoyles (10) 70
-heavy- trygon prime (adrenal glands) 180
-heavy- trygon prime (adrenal glands) 180

Total 2000 / 12 cp

Tactics; rippers hold backfield objectives, lictors and trygon deep strike for scoring secondaries. Gargoyles are objective grabbers and perform actions. The hive tyrant, hive guard, genestealers and broodlords form the main killing part of the army. Venomthropes support them by giving additional-1 to hit.

Secondaries;
- engage on all fronts
- retrieve octarius data
- psychic interrogation

CP allocation (17 during the course of game);
- 1x 5 turns relentless fury (exploding 6s for hive guard)
- 2x 5 turns single minded annihilation (hive guard shoot twice)
- 1 for adaptive physiology (enhanced resistance for hive guard)
- 1 reserved for situations
- extras generated by relic can be used for rerolls