What if... really adaptable tyranids?

[trashcan01]

Hello hive,
was there ever an idea to make the Tyranids super adaptable in terms of changing or upgrading the stats or rules.
The very best example I can come up with are Genestealers, with their increased armor save but losing advance+charge trait.
Carnifexes are also amazing with their options and various builds. Custom Hive fleets are a great addition, and I feel it's just a tip of the iceberg in terms of representing Tyranids. While most of combinations of custom hive fleets are not competitive, some of them have great flavor and are loads of fun.

How would you feel if we could get options to upgrade the statline of our units to represent the adaptability of the Hive?

To have the option to drop Gaunts Toughness to 2, and for them to be a point cheaper? Or grant them Toughness of 4, and each model goes +2pts in price?

I'm aware it would make it a nightmare for the opponent to keep track of, but isn't that the Tyranid thing? Rapidly evolve, adapt and catch the opponent off guard?

The whole process could be simplified in terms that you can't tweak individual units, but the changes affect the whole roster. Meaning, you choose a Hive Fleet Trait that gives all Warrior units +1T and +4pts cost. So, on a 1000pt tournament, you could bring 900pts army and leave 100pts of adaptation pool, the same way as you would for certain stratagems.

One way of making the costs more categorized would be to use base size: small (Gaunts/Genestealers...); Medium (Warrios/Lictors...); Large (Fexes, Dimas), but I'm guessing it would need a lot of attention and math to prevent cheese and abuse.

[joysan76]

the option to build your own bugs statelines is not somethign new, was the thrid edition nid codex wrote by Andy Chambers if i well recall.

you had some units with gene fixed, not changeable and really specialistic, like Lictors and units with gene viarable with a really base stateline where you could add +1 here and there increasing their points value.

also weapons had variable statelines depending for the strength and the number of attacks by the owner stateline.


with the following edition (the 4) many of these rules has been simplified, i suppose because was too much ocnfusing for opponents seeing tyranid that i any match had different statelines or also in the same match may had an unit of gant with t2 and another with t3


Personally i hope too that with adaptive biology and bio fleet traits we can have a good chance to give usefull powers to our units, but these rules must be well worked or will be the usual surplus never used because... is better to set more models then less mdels wth a rarely used rule.

[yoritomo]

Yeah, that was the 3rd edition codex.

Sure, you had your “standard” tyranid units in the front. In the back you had rules for making custom gaunts, warriors, hone tyrants, and carnifex.

4th edition kind of folded that build your own tyranid feature into the standard tyranids by including most of the variable stats as upgrades.

5th edition did away with just about all of this and now all that is left is giving the genestealers +1 Sv.

[purestrain]

Oct 7, 2021 10:06:57 GMT yoritomo said:

Yeah, that was the 3rd edition codex.

Sure, you had your “standard” tyranid units in the front. In the back you had rules for making custom gaunts, warriors, hone tyrants, and carnifex.

4th edition kind of folded that build your own tyranid feature into the standard tyranids by including most of the variable stats as upgrades.

5th edition did away with just about all of this and now all that is left is giving the genestealers +1 Sv.

Who wrote fifth again? I cannot recall.

[yoritomo]

Oct 7, 2021 11:31:51 GMT purestrain said:

Oct 7, 2021 10:06:57 GMT yoritomo said:

Yeah, that was the 3rd edition codex.

Sure, you had your “standard” tyranid units in the front. In the back you had rules for making custom gaunts, warriors, hone tyrants, and carnifex.

4th edition kind of folded that build your own tyranid feature into the standard tyranids by including most of the variable stats as upgrades.

5th edition did away with just about all of this and now all that is left is giving the genestealers +1 Sv.

Who wrote fifth again? I cannot recall.

I’m pretty sure 5th edition started the Crudace era of tyranid codices.

[infornography]

I am sad that both the 3rd and 4th ed Codecies were before my time. I long for a codex that follows that mold. It is what nids are supposed to be all about!
And yes, 5th was the first Cruddex. I kind of have the feeling that the quality of our codecies has been in general decline since 3rd, with the 8th edition codex being better than 6th but not as good as 5th (at least once the almost immediate nerfs hit).

3rd to 4th: we lost a lot, but not all our variable statlines.
4th to 5th: we lost pretty much all the rest of our variable statlines but had some really good layering of buff auras and deployment options.
5th to 6th: we lost a lot of our buff auras and almost all our good deployment options, also the worst internal or external balance we have ever had ... heck this codex almost felt like punishment for how much we complained about the 5th ed one.
6th to 8th: we lost all the rest of our general buff auras in exchange for unit specific ones, but got much better internal balance in the exchange ... low bar.

[joysan76]

Yes
3ed chambers
4ed chambers+ward
5ed cruddace

by the way speaking about adaptive fisioligy i think they may become our primary specific army rule

i was thinking like:

- get the actual and prepare some more
- divide them in 4-5 categories something like Ambiental, anatomic, phisiological, predatory and psychic
- give to the tyr units from generic to specific adaptive keyword (may per size small (gants size) medium (stealers) large (everything else is not a mosnter), Monster

now you have a base where to work,

you may decide to give an x point cost for unit or model to the ability
using start game CP/Relics/Biofleet Rules/Carachters rules you may modify their cost
(so as sample, you want a behemoth biofleet to be the most aggressive? set that predatory adaptations cost x point cheaper, you want hydra working with many small bugs? ok, you may set the biofleet in the way that small bug pay something less their adaptations, you want neurothrope give easier access to psichc adaptation? set that one unit may pay a psichic adaptation x point less and so on...)


you may decide as now that you have a limted number of adaptation and you may get them if...

you drop the general feat
you pay start game CP
a biofleet may give 1 or more (would be also a way to balace them, keeping the actual rules you may give 1 adaptatio to the most used biofleet and 2/3 to the less used)
some carachters may give you the chance to get one (and the swarmlord may be 2)

or more
Biofleet and some tyranid units may offer an adaptation point pool to use for them, some other, during the match may generate adaptations points (like swarms and haruspex as sample) that we can give to the units we need

in any case (they cost point or they come from the build of the list) this give many options to work as designer and as player because as told you may write rules where biofleet or certain units may advantage determinate adaptation or may be you may advantage categories of units using, producing or spreading this adaptation in the list building phare or also during the match.

[hivemindprimogenitor]

Oct 7, 2021 13:41:19 GMT joysan76 said:

Yes
3ed chambers
4ed chambers+ward
5ed cruddace

by the way speaking about adaptive fisioligy i think they may become our primary specific army rule

i was thinking like:

- get the actual and prepare some more
- divide them in 4-5 categories something like Ambiental, anatomic, phisiological, predatory and psychic
- give to the tyr units from generic to specific adaptive keyword (may per size small (gants size) medium (stealers) large (everything else is not a mosnter), Monster

now you have a base where to work,

you may decide to give an x point cost for unit or model to the ability
using start game CP/Relics/Biofleet Rules/Carachters rules you may modify their cost
(so as sample, you want a behemoth biofleet to be the most aggressive? set that predatory adaptations cost x point cheaper, you want hydra working with many small bugs? ok, you may set the biofleet in the way that small bug pay something less their adaptations, you want neurothrope give easier access to psichc adaptation? set that one unit may pay a psichic adaptation x point less and so on...)


you may decide as now that you have a limted number of adaptation and you may get them if...

you drop the general feat
you pay start game CP
a biofleet may give 1 or more (would be also a way to balace them, keeping the actual rules you may give 1 adaptatio to the most used biofleet and 2/3 to the less used)
some carachters may give you the chance to get one (and the swarmlord may be 2)

or more
Biofleet and some tyranid units may offer an adaptation point pool to use for them, some other, during the match may generate adaptations points (like swarms and haruspex as sample) that we can give to the units we need

in any case (they cost point or they come from the build of the list) this give many options to work as designer and as player because as told you may write rules where biofleet or certain units may advantage determinate adaptation or may be you may advantage categories of units using, producing or spreading this adaptation in the list building phare or also during the match.

I really like this idea, as I agree with everyone else that the nids are supposed to be this super adaptable, organic, evolution engine but have nothing to impressive to show for it. I stated elsewhere in one of the threads that I also think it would benefit us to be able to "make" reserve units when we kill opponents models/units. For every point earned by killing said unit you gain a set amount of "reserve" points to spawn new nids. Seems pretty fluid to me and very heavily rooted in the lore of the nids. 

I just really hope when we get our new codex that it doesn't come with a voucher for a jar of vaseline that expires a week or two after release.

[joysan76]

In the spirit that both armies play with the same points i think won't be a way GW will follow also if follow the nids lore.

it's easier gw designer may think to give a crescendo bonus for any destroyed unit

[hivemindprimogenitor]

I hear ya, I just dislike the fact that we have stratagems that allow us to bring in units that were destroyed, but we have to allot points from our list for reinforcements. Seems counter productive to basically plan for your units to be decimated.

[trashcan01]

Oct 7, 2021 13:41:19 GMT joysan76 said:

...
Biofleet and some tyranid units may offer an adaptation point pool to use for them, some other, during the match may generate adaptations points (like swarms and haruspex as sample) that we can give to the units we need...

Ooooh, that is an amazing idea! Generating "adaptation points" during the battle.
It would be a great mechanic to implement certain lore elements like Lictors devouring information from enemy characters! Or Haruspex growing in size and evolving as he chunks down biomass (non-vehicle) units!

[joysan76]

to simulate something similar other armies have stratagems that replace the remaining model from certain units with a whole new unit. obviulsy if the enemy obliterate your unit you can do nothing to replace them...

Personally think that the infinite swarm rule may be something more viable in narrative match then in mathed games, so i will like if gw focus on adaptations and alien fisiology

Probably won't be a way gw will follow but having as base all the army with a save 6+++ with stratagems and powers that drop it for certains target units to 5+++ should'nt be an heresy and yes, if an hive fleet already gove it or something similar there is always the chance to detail its trait in other ways

[hivemindprimogenitor]

Oct 7, 2021 15:48:42 GMT joysan76 said:

to simulate something similar other armies have stratagems that replace the remaining model from certain units with a whole new unit. obviulsy if the enemy obliterate your unit you can do nothing to replace them...

Personally think that the infinite swarm rule may be something more viable in narrative match then in mathed games, so i will like if gw focus on adaptations and alien fisiology

Probably won't be a way gw will follow but having as base all the army with a save 6+++ with stratagems and powers that drop it for certains target units to 5+++ should'nt be an heresy and yes, if an hive fleet already gove it or something similar there is always the chance to detail its trait in other ways

Yea I would love if there was a way for our troop choices to get 4+ invulnerable like SM do but I don't see GW throwing us a bone.

[mattblowers]

As the old adage goes, "wish in one hand, poop in the other"

[hivemindprimogenitor]

Oct 7, 2021 18:39:43 GMT mattblowers said:

As the old adage goes, "wish in one hand, poop in the other"

You know as well as I do that we don't poop. We repurpose biomatter, cmon man! lol