|
|
Post by hivefleettsuchinoko on Aug 30, 2021 14:50:30 GMT
Hello hivemind, I'm new to the hobby and I've only got a single game under my belt at this point. My next game will be against custodes and I know they're going to be a tough meal to chew so I'm looking for some help. Any input is appreciated. Thank you for your time. The list so far is as follows...
Battalion (haven't decided on a hivefleet yet)
HQ-
Swarmlord
Neurothrope WL + Resonance barb
Troops-
3x 15 gaunts (plan on using caustic blood to deal Mortals)
1x 10 gants (devourers)
Elites-
1x 6 Hiveguard
1x 4 Zoanthropes
Fast attack-
2x Dimachaeron (1 w/ Murderous size)
Heavy support-
1x Exocrine (voracious ammunition)
1x Trygon prime
|
|
|
|
Post by kubimaniac on Aug 30, 2021 15:01:43 GMT
I always liked my gaunts either 10 as an objective grabber/screen or 20+ for shooting. This also helps with the use of caustic blood on a larger unit.
Also maybe swap the Resonance Barb on the Swarmlord? Neurothrope doesn't benefit much from it.
|
|
|
|
Post by hivefleettsuchinoko on Aug 30, 2021 15:07:14 GMT
I always liked my gaunts either 10 as an objective grabber/screen or 20+ for shooting. This also helps with the use of caustic blood on a larger unit. Also maybe swap the Resonance Barb on the Swarmlord? Neurothrope doesn't benefit much from it. So, would you recommend bumping the gaunts to 2 units of 20? |
|
|
|
Post by beetlejuice on Aug 30, 2021 15:09:17 GMT
I always liked my gaunts either 10 as an objective grabber/screen or 20+ for shooting. This also helps with the use of caustic blood on a larger unit. Also maybe swap the Resonance Barb on the Swarmlord? Neurothrope doesn't benefit much from it. swarmlord is a named character and can’t take additional relics. A tyrant with psychic scream and smite + 1 more cast from resonance barb does some work though. I find it hard to use caustic blood vs custodes, they usually run msu/mech and don’t really have the volume of attacks in melee to reliably clear 30 gaunts (which is what u want to use the strat on for average 5 mortals, kinda meh to pay cp for 1-2 mortals since thats not even one custodes model) |
|
|
|
Post by beetlejuice on Aug 30, 2021 15:17:46 GMT
Hello hivemind, I'm new to the hobby and I've only got a single game under my belt at this point. My next game will be against custodes and I know they're going to be a tough meal to chew so I'm looking for some help. Any input is appreciated. Thank you for your time. The list so far is as follows... Battalion (haven't decided on a hivefleet yet) HQ- Swarmlord Neurothrope WL + Resonance barb Troops- 3x 15 gaunts (plan on using caustic blood to deal Mortals) 1x 10 gants (devourers) Elites- 1x 6 Hiveguard 1x 4 Zoanthropes Fast attack- 2x Dimachaeron (1 w/ Murderous size) Heavy support- 1x Exocrine (voracious ammunition) 1x Trygon prime zoans work great as tarpits vs custodes, probably bump it to 5 man for realiable 2d3 mortals. I like to hide them from potential hurricane bolters turn 1 then pop catalyst and swarmlord sling them turn 2 (or metabolic overdrive to move block somewhere). Custodes have army wide obsec so I’d run several 10 man units to help flip objectives as needed across the board. Whats your plan for the trygon? You could do 2 patrol detachments. Swarmlord, dimas, gaunts, zoans in kraken. Neuro, hive guard, exocrine as kronos in the other. Do you have 1-2 lictors? Great for secondaries like retrieve octarius data and engage on all fronts/behind enemy lines. Voracious ammunition is kinda meh triggering at the end of shooting phase and all. Consider dermic symbiosis on the exocrine to keep it at top bracket for an extra turn hopefully. You can use stratagem progeny of the hive for an extra adaption to put enhanced resistance on hive guard (make sure you screen them from chargers/deepstrikes and with double shooting every turn they can do nice work with symbiostorm power). Murderous size on trygon is also an option. Honestly I hate hinging my game plan unreliable charges from deepstrike so I’d prefer to use it as another option for hive commander from the swarmlord (the dimas being the obvious prime candidates for it) |
|
|
|
Post by hivefleettsuchinoko on Aug 30, 2021 15:33:06 GMT
Hello hivemind, I'm new to the hobby and I've only got a single game under my belt at this point. My next game will be against custodes and I know they're going to be a tough meal to chew so I'm looking for some help. Any input is appreciated. Thank you for your time. The list so far is as follows... Battalion (haven't decided on a hivefleet yet) HQ- Swarmlord Neurothrope WL + Resonance barb Troops- 3x 15 gaunts (plan on using caustic blood to deal Mortals) 1x 10 gants (devourers) Elites- 1x 6 Hiveguard 1x 4 Zoanthropes Fast attack- 2x Dimachaeron (1 w/ Murderous size) Heavy support- 1x Exocrine (voracious ammunition) 1x Trygon prime zoans work great as tarpits vs custodes, probably bump it to 5 man for realiable 2d3 mortals. I like to hide them from potential hurricane bolters turn 1 then pop catalyst and swarmlord sling them turn 2 (or metabolic overdrive to move block somewhere). Custodes have army wide obsec so I’d run several 10 man units to help flip objectives as needed across the board. Whats your plan for the trygon? You could do 2 patrol detachments. Swarmlord, dimas, gaunts, zoans in kraken. Neuro, hive guard, exocrine as kronos in the other. Do you have 1-2 lictors? Great for secondaries like retrieve octarius data and engage on all fronts/behind enemy lines. Voracious ammunition is kinda meh triggering at the end of shooting phase and all. Consider dermic symbiosis on the exocrine to keep it at top bracket for an extra turn hopefully. You can use stratagem progeny of the hive for an extra adaption to put enhanced resistance on hive guard (make sure you screen them from chargers/deepstrikes and with double shooting every turn they can do nice work with symbiostorm power). Murderous size on trygon is also an option. Honestly I hate hinging my game plan unreliable charges from deepstrike so I’d prefer to use it as another option for hive commander from the swarmlord (the dimas being the obvious prime candidates for it) I can bump Zoans to 5. I have 1 Deathleaper. I am using stratagem for the extra adaptation, but I can swap the Voracious ammo for dermic symbiosis or enhanced resistance. The Trygon's purpose was the mortals when he jumps up and getting one of my gaunt units in there to tie up something so the caustic blood can do its work while keeping something occupied and Trygon presents a nice big target that can clog a lane for a bit and maybe even snag an extra wound or 2 if I'm lucky. (he'd be a 2nd exocrine if i had one though probably.) |
|
|
|
Post by zimko on Aug 30, 2021 15:58:58 GMT
The Trygon's purpose was the mortals when he jumps up and getting one of my gaunt units in there to tie up something so the caustic blood can do its work while keeping something occupied and Trygon presents a nice big target that can clog a lane for a bit and maybe even snag an extra wound or 2 if I'm lucky. (he'd be a 2nd exocrine if i had one though probably.) Trygons don't do mortals when they pop up. You're thinking of Mawlocs. And Mawlocs can't bring in units with them except with the Jorm stratagem (but if you're doing mortal wounds then the Mawloc will be too close to enemy units to bring in other units). I've used a Mawloc against Custodes before. It's the most useless way to spend 125 points. Not only is 3 mortal wounds not that much on models with 4+ wounds, but also, custodes have a 6+++ against mortals, so some of those mortal wounds may not even get thru. |
|
|
|
Post by hivefleettsuchinoko on Aug 30, 2021 16:07:16 GMT
The Trygon's purpose was the mortals when he jumps up and getting one of my gaunt units in there to tie up something so the caustic blood can do its work while keeping something occupied and Trygon presents a nice big target that can clog a lane for a bit and maybe even snag an extra wound or 2 if I'm lucky. (he'd be a 2nd exocrine if i had one though probably.) Trygons don't do mortals when they pop up. You're thinking of Mawlocs. And Mawlocs can't bring in units with them except with the Jorm stratagem (but if you're doing mortal wounds then the Mawloc will be too close to enemy units to bring in other units). I've used a Mawloc against Custodes before. It's the most useless way to spend 125 points. Not only is 3 mortal wounds not that much on models with 4+ wounds, but also, custodes have a 6+++ against mortals, so some of those mortal wounds may not even get thru. Oh, you're correct, thank you for correcting me. Where would you feel that those points be better spent? |
|
|
|
Post by zimko on Aug 30, 2021 16:56:59 GMT
Trygons don't do mortals when they pop up. You're thinking of Mawlocs. And Mawlocs can't bring in units with them except with the Jorm stratagem (but if you're doing mortal wounds then the Mawloc will be too close to enemy units to bring in other units). I've used a Mawloc against Custodes before. It's the most useless way to spend 125 points. Not only is 3 mortal wounds not that much on models with 4+ wounds, but also, custodes have a 6+++ against mortals, so some of those mortal wounds may not even get thru. Oh, you're correct, thank you for correcting me. Where would you feel that those points be better spent? Your list is gravitating close to what I would consider a highly competitive list. So here is where you could take it. Hive Fleet Kraken Battalion - Swarmlord: Paroxysm, Psychic Scream - 240 - Hive Tyrant, WARLORD: Wings, M. Scy Talons, Devourers, Murderous Size, Resonance Barb, Onslaught, Catalyst - 215 - 10x Hormagaunts - 60 - 20x Hormagaunts - 120 - 30x Termagants w/ Devourers - 210 - Lictor - 37 - Lictor - 37 - Dimachaeron - 255 - Dimachaeron - 255 Hive Fleet Kronos Patrol - Neurothrope: Symbiostorm - 95 - 3x Ripper Swarm - 36 - 6x Hive Guard: Enhanced Resistance - 270 - Exocrine - 170 This is exactly 2000 pts and is what I would consider to be the 'cookie cutter' competitive Tyranid list. Start everything on the board except the Rippers and Lictors. In some games you may want to deep strike the Devgants (Pay 1 CP to put them into Strategic Reserves then pay another 1 CP to arrive within 6" of a Lictor) but against Custodes you want them to advance onto objectives and move-block your opponent. Their devourers will do almost nothing in this matchup. With the Kraken stratagem, they can move 16 to 18 inches on average and still shoot. Your goal the whole game should be to guard the Hive Guard and the Exocrine from Custode bikers. Guard them with all 30 devgants and all 30 hormagaunts. The Exocrine and Hive Guard are the most lethal things you have against Custodes and if a single Custode biker sees an opening to charge one of your artillery pieces then they will take it. The Dimas, Swarmlord and Flyrant are all bullies, but Custodes can kill them in melee pretty easily. Use these units to pick off Custode units that are alone on a far-off objective. Don't send the Dimas straight down the throat of a Custode army. Try to get as much use out of them as possible, box your opponent into a corner. Remove his mobile units first if you can and always play it safe when it comes to deciding how much is needed to kill a unit. Do you think 1 Dima is enough to kill a unit of 3 Custodes? Maybe. Better send both just in case. Don't gamble on anything being enough. And most importantly, play to the objectives. Hold enough to get 10 points and play your secondaries. Lictors and Hormagaunts are great for Engage on all Fronts and Retrieve Octarius Data. Your third secondary can be the mission objective if it's easy, or perhaps psychic ritual (or whatever it's called now). Your opponent won't be very fast and the Swarmlord and Flyrant can easily do this secondary. |
|
|
|
Post by hivefleettsuchinoko on Aug 30, 2021 17:13:37 GMT
Oh, you're correct, thank you for correcting me. Where would you feel that those points be better spent? Your list is gravitating close to what I would consider a highly competitive list. So here is where you could take it. Hive Fleet Kraken Battalion - Swarmlord: Paroxysm, Psychic Scream - 240 - Hive Tyrant, WARLORD: Wings, M. Scy Talons, Devourers, Murderous Size, Resonance Barb, Onslaught, Catalyst - 215 - 10x Hormagaunts - 60 - 20x Hormagaunts - 120 - 30x Termagants w/ Devourers - 210 - Lictor - 37 - Lictor - 37 - Dimachaeron - 255 - Dimachaeron - 255 Hive Fleet Kronos Patrol - Neurothrope: Symbiostorm - 95 - 3x Ripper Swarm - 36 - 6x Hive Guard: Enhanced Resistance - 270 - Exocrine - 170 This is exactly 2000 pts and is what I would consider to be the 'cookie cutter' competitive Tyranid list. Start everything on the board except the Rippers and Lictors. In some games you may want to deep strike the Devgants (Pay 1 CP to put them into Strategic Reserves then pay another 1 CP to arrive within 6" of a Lictor) but against Custodes you want them to advance onto objectives and move-block your opponent. Their devourers will do almost nothing in this matchup. With the Kraken stratagem, they can move 16 to 18 inches on average and still shoot. Your goal the whole game should be to guard the Hive Guard and the Exocrine from Custode bikers. Guard them with all 30 devgants and all 30 hormagaunts. The Exocrine and Hive Guard are the most lethal things you have against Custodes and if a single Custode biker sees an opening to charge one of your artillery pieces then they will take it. The Dimas, Swarmlord and Flyrant are all bullies, but Custodes can kill them in melee pretty easily. Use these units to pick off Custode units that are alone on a far-off objective. Don't send the Dimas straight down the throat of a Custode army. Try to get as much use out of them as possible, box your opponent into a corner. Remove his mobile units first if you can and always play it safe when it comes to deciding how much is needed to kill a unit. Do you think 1 Dima is enough to kill a unit of 3 Custodes? Maybe. Better send both just in case. Don't gamble on anything being enough. And most importantly, play to the objectives. Hold enough to get 10 points and play your secondaries. Lictors and Hormagaunts are great for Engage on all Fronts and Retrieve Octarius Data. Your third secondary can be the mission objective if it's easy, or perhaps psychic ritual (or whatever it's called now). Your opponent won't be very fast and the Swarmlord and Flyrant can easily do this secondary. This is great advice and exactly what I was looking for. Thank you for the time you spent to explain and go into details about why you selected certain things and how to utilize them effectively. I will take all given info into consideration when developing the list and report back with the results of that game. Thanks again. |
|
|
|
Post by zimko on Aug 30, 2021 17:32:03 GMT
My pleasure, and since you're new to Tyranids I'll point out some stratagems you will want to keep available. IMO, stratagems are the hardest thing to remember in a game because they're not listed on your units' datasheets.
- 2 CP: Shoot twice with an infantry unit (Hive Guard)
- 1 CP: Overrun: Move and Advance after killing a unit in melee instead of consolidating. This can be huge for the Dimachaerons as it allows them to 'hit and run' to avoid getting charged.
- 1 CP: Metabolic Overdrive: Move twice with any unit, but that unit can't shoot or charge. This has obvious utility for move-blocking with Hormagaunts, but another thing to think about with this ability is that you can still perform an action with a unit IF you don't advance. So a Hormagaunt unit for example can move 16" and still perform the Retrieve Octarius action using this stratagem.
- 2 CP: Increase damage of ranged weapons with a Monster (Exocrine) by 1. This can be huge for the Exocrine in this matchup when you're shooting into models that have 3 wounds.
- 1 CP: Kraken only double advance. I mentioned this can be used on Devgants, but it also of course can be useful for the Dimas. Try to deploy your Dimas far enough back that any shooting that is lethal to them is out of range. With this stratagem, and Swarmlord, the Dimas have incredible reach so don't deploy them up on your deployment line. Take advantage of their speed and stay as far away as you can until you're ready to pounce.
- 1 CP: Caustic Blood. You've mentioned this stratagem already, so I'll warn you. This can be a trap. Don't use it when you only have 10 to 15 models left in a unit. The odds are decent that you'll only do 2 mortals with it. I'd only use it if you have 20+ models remaining in a unit when they are charged. Even then, think about how effective 3 to 4 mortals will be vs using one of the previously mentioned stratagems. CP are precious so think hard about how effective those mortals will be vs using Metabolic Overdrive on a Lictor to score you 3 more points from Engage on all Fronts.
- 3 CP: Fight twice. I rarely use this anymore, it's just so expensive.
- 1 CP: Reroll wound rolls in melee with a monster. Very useful for the Dimas, Flyrant and Swarmlord once they reach melee.
PS: Be warned tho, Custodes have access to some abilities that 'turn off rerolls'. I think its a warlord trait? Just ask before you commit. The Dimas rely heavily on rerolls so make sure you know before-hand which models 'turn off rerolls'.
Edit 2: I forgot a stratagem that I often take for granted as just something that the Exocrine can do.
- 1CP: Exocrine only: Counts as not moving for shooting even if it moved. (Can't use this if you advanced or just arrived from reserves). This is important because the Exocrine can shoot twice if it doesn't move AND it gets +1 to hit if it doesn't move. And with the Kronos fleet trait it can reroll 1s. Also from the Blood of Baal book (where this stratagem comes from) we get the Kronos fleet psychic power Symbiostorm, which if used on the Exocrine, gives him extra hits from 6+ to hit. Since the Exocrine gets +1 to hit for not moving, this means he get extra hits on 5+. With all that together, the Exocrine often gets more hits in shooting than he has shots. Tack on +1 damage from the 2 CP stratagem mentioned above and you have yourself a terminator killing machine.
|
|
|
|
Post by beetlejuice on Aug 30, 2021 17:37:37 GMT
Zimkos advice is excellent. I’d probably run 3x10 horms over 10+20 but that’s personal preference.
Noticed you had murderous size on a dima originially which would be a waste. They are already S8 so S9 only matters into T8. AP-4 is wasted since all custodes have 4++ invulnerable saves. D3+d3 is enough to 1 shot all non character/non vehicles so extra dmg also wasted.
If anything dimas can use accelerated digestion to regain wounds and stay alive longer. Not as good vs custodes since they risk bouncing off invulns, better when you can count on killing 3+ models every fight phase. Dimas kinda don’t need dermic symbiosis either since they have native invuln and degrade favourably through brackets(mostly cus they reroll hits). In summary, put adaptations on units that massively benefit like exocrine and hive guard.
|
|
|
|
Post by zimko on Aug 30, 2021 17:47:47 GMT
In this case I suggested putting Murderous Size on a Flyrant with Monstrous Scything Talons. 4 Damage attacks makes him able to kill all characters with 2 successful wounds instead 3. The odds of that are still low since they have 4+ invul saves but the only other place worth using it is on the Exocrine for Dermic Symbiosis. That choice really depends on what the Custode player is using. From my personal experience, Custode shooting doesn't do well into T8 models. They'd rather shoot the Dimas, Flyrant or Swarmlord.
|
|
|
|
Post by No One on Aug 31, 2021 5:30:05 GMT
but also, custodes have a 6+++ against mortals, so some of those mortal wounds may not even get thru. Just psychic phase. 2 CP strat. Shield cap will usually have 5+++ and/or extra wounds, so not 'all'. But it makes a huge difference into bikes, and also means that you can charge in to finish off termis with a bit more surety. Noticed you had murderous size on a dima originially which would be a waste. They are already S8 so S9 only matters into T8. AP-4 is wasted since all custodes have 4++ invulnerable saves. D3+d3 is enough to 1 shot all non character/non vehicles so extra dmg also wasted. It's relevant into dreads, where you've got T7+Shadowkeepers or T8 (and also Shadowkeepers) and -1 D with 6+++, so the extra damage can help secure kills. Dima into dreads is a bit dicey either way though, and it does nothing in most situations, so...I'd say it's OK, but not good. See above if you really want some extra oomph out of an adapt. |
|
|
|
Post by hivefleettsuchinoko on Sept 1, 2021 12:48:55 GMT
UPDATE! The game was last night and the list was great I kept a wide point lead on my opponent and ended the game with a final score of 87 to 28. Dimas put in some great work and caustic blood really underwhelmed. I only got 2 mortal wounds out of using it twice. Overall, I believe everything worked out better than expected and I learned a great deal about building an effective list. Thanks again to all the valuable input everyone!
|
|
