Stop the ork push

[jplayah]

I have an opponent who likes to take his orks, pile them in trukks, and just roll through my beautiful lands and run me over. It makes me very sad when I'm trying to zone them and keep them off my points. I'm still pretty new to the game. Could I get some recommendations for units or tactics to use against this?

[hivefleetkerrigan]

Could you post his list and your list so we can give you some tailored advice?

Generally, I'd recommend using screens or shooting the trucks. For screens his trucks are not ob sec, so any nid troops will outnumber his trucks on objectives

[jplayah]

It's been like a month, but here's the army I think I used.

Patrol Detachment (0 CP)

Warlord: Hive Tyrant with Monstrous Scything Talons x2, Prehensile Pincer Tail, Adrenal Glands, Wings (1) x1 @210 = 210
Biovore with Spore Mine Launcher (3) x2 @150 = 300
Spore Mine (3) x2 @30 = 60
Hormagaunt with Scything Talons (30) x 3 @180 = 540

Spearhead Detachment (3 CP)

Tyranid Prime with Scything Talons, Adrenal Glands (1) x1 @80 = 80
Biovore with Spore Mine Launcher (3) x3 @150 = 450
Hormagaunt with Scything Talons (30) x 2 @180 = 360

Hive Fleet Adaptation: Kronos

Warlord Trait: Adaptive Biology

Total: 2,000 points, 9 CP



His army (from what I remember):

A lot of Boyz
Trukk
Two of those freaking bulldozer tanks
A squiggoth

And he just drives through my stuff. Very sad. I couldn't find the damage to bring down any of his vehicles.

It should probably be noted that I'm still figuring out how to build good armies to begin with, so any advice there helps as well.

[No One]

jplayah said:

I couldn't find the damage to bring down any of his vehicles.

This is because you have 0 damage: biovores are not damage. Squads of spore mines...are not damage (and just bad). Hormagaunts are not damage. T-prime is just bad without warriors (and very meh with). So you have a double scy tal flyrant, who doesn't have size so isn't even good damage.

Now, with that you should be able to move block him for a bit, but...well, that's obviously not happening, and it doesn't work that great when they're perfectly happy to charge you.

Also the list is illegal for anything but open, because 5 squads of biovores.

[jplayah]

Aug 18, 2021 0:40:15 GMT No One said:

This is because you have 0 damage: biovores are not damage. Squads of spore mines...are not damage (and just bad). Hormagaunts are not damage. T-prime is just bad without warriors (and very meh with). So you have a double scy tal flyrant, who doesn't have size so isn't even good damage.

Now, with that you should be able to move block him for a bit, but...well, that's obviously not happening, and it doesn't work that great when they're perfectly happy to charge you.

Also the list is illegal for anything but open, because 5 squads of biovores.

Sorry for being (please do not swear) at the game. Like I said, I'm still trying to figure out how to make an effective army. If you have any suggestions for which units to use against these vehicles, I'd appreciate it.

[beetlejuice]

Aug 18, 2021 2:19:06 GMT jplayah said:

Aug 18, 2021 0:40:15 GMT No One said:

This is because you have 0 damage: biovores are not damage. Squads of spore mines...are not damage (and just bad). Hormagaunts are not damage. T-prime is just bad without warriors (and very meh with). So you have a double scy tal flyrant, who doesn't have size so isn't even good damage.

Now, with that you should be able to move block him for a bit, but...well, that's obviously not happening, and it doesn't work that great when they're perfectly happy to charge you.

Also the list is illegal for anything but open, because 5 squads of biovores.

Sorry for being (please do not swear) at the game. Like I said, I'm still trying to figure out how to make an effective army. If you have any suggestions for which units to use against these vehicles, I'd appreciate it.

hive guard are probably your best bet, kronos for symbiostorm spell and reroll 1 to hit with impalers standing still behind cover somewhere. Str 8 bypasses ramshackle. I’d like to try hive guard with shockcannon in jormungandr from reserves with reroll hits spell vs buggyspam but my resident ork player don’t have that many. Hive guard benefit greatly from shoot twice stratagem single minded annihilation.

Another option for body blocking is 30 gargoyles in kraken. Double move with metabolic overdrive or swarmlords hive commander and just force him to stay in his deployment zone for a turn, assuming u have adequate terrain he can’t move vehicles through. Doesn’t work as well going second though

[jplayah]

Aug 18, 2021 4:46:00 GMT beetlejuice said:

Aug 18, 2021 2:19:06 GMT jplayah said:

Sorry for being (please do not swear) at the game. Like I said, I'm still trying to figure out how to make an effective army. If you have any suggestions for which units to use against these vehicles, I'd appreciate it.

hive guard are probably your best bet, kronos for symbiostorm spell and reroll 1 to hit with impalers standing still behind cover somewhere. Str 8 bypasses ramshackle. I’d like to try hive guard with shockcannon in jormungandr from reserves with reroll hits spell vs buggyspam but my resident ork player don’t have that many. Hive guard benefit greatly from shoot twice stratagem single minded annihilation.

Another option for body blocking is 30 gargoyles in kraken. Double move with metabolic overdrive or swarmlords hive commander and just force him to stay in his deployment zone for a turn, assuming u have adequate terrain he can’t move vehicles through. Doesn’t work as well going second though

Thanks for the advice. I'll look into all of those options. I've also heard of a carnifex variant called the stone-crusher that's supposed to be good against vehicles. Is that worth using?

[No One]

Eh, they're slow and not really tanky, so buggies get to engage first and kill you. Hive guard are good, flyrants with murderous size is OK (only S7 is oof, but it's still D3 even through ramshackle) or the bigger FW MCs.

Swarmlord is basically always good, and as above a couple of units to just charge in to just outside 1" (or into combat to stop shooting depending on the buggy). Biovores can do this by missing as well: it's not as reliable, but against big based vehicles that don't have Fly, you should be able to jam things up fairly effectively.

[infornography]

Stonecrushers are not bad units, but their ideal targets are buildings and really big vehicles. Fast buggies and trukks are not where they excel. Hive Guard and Exocrines are our primary light vehicle poppers.

As No One states, Biovores main purpose in our codex is to create a wall of annoyance. The enemy has to pop them or move around them and since the movement phase happens before they have a chance to pop them, they are slowed for a turn. This doesn't work quite as well against Orks who are more than willing to charge a spore wall and take the hit in order to get their melee foot sloggers there faster. Their models are cheap enough that it isn't an issue. Honestly against Orks, I'd say leave the Biovores at home. Maybe if your opponent is cool with it, proxy them as Hive Guard to try out the tactics assuming you don't have a lot of hive guard currently.

[fourarmedemperor]

Let's take a step back and talk about some good units and basic tactics.

First I think you should take 2 different Hive Fleets, A Kronos detachment for all your shooting units, and a Behemoth or Kraken detachment for your close combat units. (I prefer Behemoth, many people prefer Kraken)

Good Kronos Units:
5 or 6 Hive Gaurd (Impaler Cannons)
1 or 2 Exocrines
Neurothrope or Broodlord to cast Symbiostorm on Hive Gaurd or an Exocrine
4 or 5 Zoanthropes (take the Neurothrope if you take Zoanthropes)

In your specific case, the Hive Gaurd will be better than the Exocrines against the ork vehicles because S8 ignores Ramshackle. Make sure to cast Symbiostorm on them and have that unit shoot twice. If you are tailoring your army just to win this game, you may even want two squads of hive gaurd.


Good Behemoth Units:
Swarmlord
Super Flyrant (Flying Hive Tyrant With Murderous Size, the Scythes of Tyran, and Toxin Sacs)
Hormogaunts
2 Lictors (for objectives)

Make sure to cast Unstoppable Hunger Every turn, +1 to wound on the Super Flyrant or Swarmlord will help a lot when they charge the vehicles, especially the T8 Squiggoth (Also use Voracious Appetite to reroll wounds). It is also very good for a Hormogaunts to wound boyz on 4+ not 5+

No matter your opponent, I would absolutely cut out your Biovores, Spore Mines, and Tyranid Prime. That alone frees up 890 points you can replace with some good stuff.

Good Luck!

[jplayah]

Thank you everyone for your help. One question I want to add since I'm a little confused on this matter: Carnifexes. They look like they have a ton of options for customization. When should/shouldn't I use carnifexes in general, and are there any specific loadouts/variations of them that are especially good in certain situations? (Look, I think it would be funny to walk a group of T-Rexes onto the battlefield and eat things.)

[zimko]

For now, Carnifexes are just bad at everything. However if you really want to use them, then I suggest quad devourers. Especially against orks.

[infornography]

I think bad at everything is overstating it a bit. Though they are underpowered.

Enhanced senses, devourer, spore cysts and either another devourer or heavy venom cannon is the standard build.

Replace devourers with deathspitters as you prefer. Deathspitters and devourers average to about equally good. Devs are better at dealing with hordes and invuln saves. Deathspitters are better at T7 vehicles and range. YMMV.

[yoritomo]

It should be stated that very few of the tyranid units are "bad". It's only when we compare our units with the newer 9th edition codices that they look bad. The internal balance of our codex is very good and you can have success with just about any unit.

That being said, biovore control is a high skill list and doesn't do well in the hands of beginners. You have to know how to intentionally miss and place spore mine in such a way that you zone out your opponent. Then when you are blocking your opponent you aren't doing mortal wounds, which is a real problem as your list doesn't do many wounds to begin with. You also have large blobs of hormagaunts, which are good at zoning out your opponent. Again, they don't do much damage. With perfect play you could have some real success with this list; but I think we both know you aren't getting perfect play in your games.


This leaves us with the question on where to go with your list. If you want to go with the board control route then you'd be better off playing gaunt carpet. It is by far the easiest army to play as you just set up as many gaunts as you can afford on the object and watch your opponent not have enough firepower to kill them all. Easy, but not really fun to play.

If you want to go a more aggressive route then you need a couple unit that can deal with his vehicles. As stated earlier the hive guard are probably your best option for pure vehicle hunting. Another unit to consider is the tyrannofex. His acid spray is 2d6 auto hits at S7. It isn't ideal for hitting vehicles, but it is good enough and he is able to pivot to killing his boys without issue.

[kazetanade]

A fun one from back whenever, was wrapping a tank and not letting it disembark its passengers. I've used this to circumvent "obsec in a box" plays to maintain obj ownership advantages for 2 turns running.