Warzone Octarius

[topaxygourouni]

Sending forth hormagaunts with double exploding and autowounding 6's, rerolling hits, swapping fleet for biometalic cysts + strat for -2 ap and giving them double obsec on top.

Probably too CP intensive for all of it but even some of them can make them quite an upper punch.

[xtztxtxz]

Large durable Warrior blobs and the new durable Tervigon build effectively compete for the same midfield objective-holding role. I think the Warriors will just edge it in terms of having more damage output, and their synaptic link is useful to a wider range of units. Tervigons also are a bit more reliant on Maleceptors to take the edge off S8+ weapons, which has a hefty cost in both CP & points.

I think Tervigons with the CP refund relic will be more sustainable in the backfield as topaxygourouni has noted, especially as they support Hive Guard so well. Resupplying small units of guants can help to screen your deployment zone objectives and protect those squishy Hive Guard from drops.

I ran the numbers on fully buffed Hormas and they can manage some solid damage against light-medium vehicles or regular MEQs, but drop sharply against anything with T7+ or 2+ saves. For 3+ saves the AP stratagem is basically mandatory. While there is some potential, I think 'stealers will be far more effective for the resources invested. The challenge to deliver both units is still the same, but there will be very few targets that Genestealers with the same buffs can't dispatch or cripple in one go.

[windwalkerranger]

Oct 17, 2021 2:08:51 GMT No One said:

windwalkerranger said:

Regarding the tervigon; I think we are focusing too much on killing power that obviously comes with the new toys. But there's also the defensive play, the board presence and the secondary objectives to keep in mind. At this moment I'm strongly thinking on giving the tervigon the -1 to wound relic along with the dermic symbiosis. I also fully intent to play a maleceptor and keep the two together, perhaps even in addition to a malanthroph (the last one is a maybe). All of this just to be able to take "to the last", which should be zoanthrophs, 30xdevilgants, and the tervigon. I'll arrange the rest of the list accordingly. We all know how hard zoans to remove with their pesky 3++, and in leviathan they already get the 6+++. The same goes for the devilgants who will surely get the protection of the broodlord, and who will get replaced by the tervigon as they go down in numbers. And the tervigon will simply not die as long as I can keep feeding the maleceptor strategem. dark lances will hurt it in 6' alone. My insides are going fuzzy thinking about it. AND if I have a malanthroph in there, all of these guys will also get -1 to hit ( in which case maybe the protection from broodlord will be unnecessary).

All of the others, rerolling 1's and 2's to wounds, +1 to hits etc, I'm thinking on precision strikes on opponent characters with toxicrene or genestealer squads or broodlord if my opponent agrees, to use the feeder tendril strategem to regain cp's. AND of course, with proper hive guard support.

Take to the last, octarius data and engage on all fronts, and play the vp game. That's currently what I'm thinking.

The secondary VP game only works if you don't get bodied on primary, and since you're also relying on to the last, you don't need to just get a VP lead and hold it like most board control wants to do, you need to last till T5. Is this viable? Possibly.
But you're
A: Investing massively in defensive tools, many of which just...don't work sometimes. Like against melee. When you don't have much to stop people just wandering up and murdering you. Or MWs, which...well, Leviathan and gaunt screening stops psychic, but not shooting (volcons) or melee (GK). Like, GK just wreck you. DWatch just wreck you. Orks just wreck you. AdMech just wrecks you. Tyranids probably just wreck you. So...yay you're probably good into DE (I'm not even sure of that, it's both DE and they have a really good secondary game as well)? NB: Some of these may not be able to kill the terv easily, but can definitely kill the gaunts/zoans, even if it takes a turn or two. And can definitely also kill the terv once your CP runs out or they have nothing else to do.

B: Can't actually invest in some of our offensive tools. Like, you mention 'proper hive guard support'. That's 270 pts, which is higher than everything but the zoans. You could take a 4 man and have it be lower than the gaunts. But you also lose out on Swarmlord, all our FW stuff, flyrant, full devilgant blob, big stealer blobs...yeah. This isn't to say that this sort of thing can't have play. But it's basically just asking 'can you murder me in 3-5 turns': the answer is usually 'yes'. Where as taking more damage stuff is basically 'can you murder me fast enough that I can't wrack up a decent score lead, as I also murder your key units/scorers'? The answer to that is going to be much less certain. What do you lose by doing this? A 3rd secondary that isn't even that good.


*******


Regarding the issue with hive guard support, there are two solutions: either take 5 hive guard and increase the cost of tervigon (the synaptic link +15 pts, the other melee weapon +10 pts, adrenal glands and toxin sacs 5 pts each, mix and match as you'd like), or take 2x4 hive guard, which some people do already. Or maybe I could take exocrines instead of hive guard.

For other points, you're mostly right, but all those MW's you mention also work on anything else, any other plan we'd have as an alternative. Besides, that's where we want the shooting to go. If, say, we have 9xwarrior unit to grab and hold onto a midfield objective, or hormies diving into enemy objectives, than those twin volkite culverins and admech shooting not going into those would mean primary scores for us.

I'm not saying I have solved the final equation to make it all work, I don't think that's how tyranid lists operate, but I think the more we keep focusing on hive guard, the more we're missing out on something. Based on the official results, it's obvious hive guard and/or swarmlord + dimacherons are no longer enough. We need a different perspective. And to be honest, I don't think admech is as bad as drukhari, the aircraft stuff is not as bad as people make it look. I have zero experience against orks so I can't tell. My friends play drukhari, wolves, necrons, death guard. So my perspective might be a little bit skewed.

[topaxygourouni]

Unfortunately it seems as if 15 stealers are the same attacks as 30 hormas, only with better ws, ap baked in already and also they are not need to rely on onslaught. Also they are more or less the same points.

Hormas would have the benefit of claiming obsec easier with more bodies and also better pile in/consolidate, but overall it seems that stealers will once again be the silver bullet we need.

One day, my little angry nothinglings...one day you will shine again.

I am so so happy we are discussing seriously about fielding tervigons, hormagaunts, maleceptors and Tyranid primes.

[No One]

windwalkerranger said:

Regarding the issue with hive guard support, there are two solutions: either take 5 hive guard and increase the cost of tervigon (the synaptic link +15 pts, the other melee weapon +10 pts, adrenal glands and toxin sacs 5 pts each, mix and match as you'd like), or take 2x4 hive guard, which some people do already. Or maybe I could take exocrines instead of hive guard.

I was actually referring to the devilgants more, since they max at 180 (well, you could waste points on AG/toxin) if you want to replenish.

For other points, you're mostly right, but all those MW's you mention also work on anything else, any other plan we'd have as an alternative. Besides, that's where we want the shooting to go. If, say, we have 9xwarrior unit to grab and hold onto a midfield objective, or hormies diving into enemy objectives, than those twin volkite culverins and admech shooting not going into those would mean primary scores for us.

So, two things with this.
A: They work on anything else, but here's the thing. Basically everything else is cheaper per wound. I think the only exception is some MCs (e.g. flyrant/Swarmlord, who're even more susceptible, but just don't want to be shot in general). Zoans are just super vulnerable to MWs, and a lot of those things in particular. Like, volcons? Zoans are really good targets for volcons. Like, they come with no AP, so don't care about 3++. They do MW. They wound on 3s with weight of fire D2 to counter the 3 wounds 6+++. And they can also get +1 to hit against Fly. Warriors? About the same defensive profile (depending on adapt/AP), can get -1 D, and are about/under half the price. Gaunts? You lose a squad, but you lose more than one zoan on average, so you're behind there as well.

B: This may still work, looking at early/midgame durability, obsec strat to still hold a point etc. But...well, if this is an endgame strat? You mention it working on other alternatives. What about hive guard/Swarmlord sling which, you know, wants to be shot never? Or at least, not for the key damage dealers until after they've connected. At which point they don't have the damage to clear you quickly, and can pressure scoring in your favour. Relying on to the last and building around it is either very durable with decent offence (e.g. telemons) or cheap enough that you can play cagey with it if needed and still have the army function (e.g. DE). Ours are neither: they're decently durable, but (especially once you run out of CP for 'cepter) they're definitely killable. And they're not cheap enough you can afford to play cagey with them, especially in the case of zoans. At which point, while 300 pts sitting midfield and being a nuisance for ~3 turns is normally fine, if you've taken to the last, that's a 5 pt loss. And if you don't play them up, they're sort of useless and you're basically playing 300 pts down. Ditto gaunts, and to some extent ditto terv+support.

I'm not saying I have solved the final equation to make it all work, I don't think that's how tyranid lists operate, but I think the more we keep focusing on hive guard, the more we're missing out on something. Based on the official results, it's obvious hive guard and/or swarmlord + dimacherons are no longer enough. We need a different perspective. And to be honest, I don't think admech is as bad as drukhari, the aircraft stuff is not as bad as people make it look. I have zero experience against orks so I can't tell. My friends play drukhari, wolves, necrons, death guard. So my perspective might be a little bit skewed.

Yeah, I'm not going to say that hive guard are the be all-end all. But, you mention HG/dima lists not cutting it: this isn't wrong. However, those almost cut it, and have recently cut it. More board control list? Haven't really worked well for a while. What does this supplement give us? A lot of things that support damage strategies, a bit of nice additional tech (mainly the obsec strat: that's nice), and one nice but not crazy defensive ability (broodlord).

Considering that this pairs very well with hive guard/devilgants, which see consistent play as part of the damage lists...it's almost a straight buff to a list that works. Does this mean it's the best list? Possibly not: Orks make HG more problematic, but...they're also a problem for most of our lists, and at least HG+Swarmlord's a solid answer going 1st, as is buffed devilgants/stealers. There may be something going harder on gaunts/stealers, or a trading gameplay, or something cagier midfield while other units bother their objectives, and you have enough damage from HG/devilgants/stealers to not fold to pressure.

Do I think there's the tools to make a grindy/survival/board control list work? Better yes, best nope.

topaxygourouni said:

Unfortunately it seems as if 15 stealers are the same attacks as 30 hormas, only with better ws, ap baked in already and also they are not need to rely on onslaught. Also they are more or less the same points.

Thanks for putting it so bluntly. Also 15 stealers is actually similar durability to 30 horms when you account for the T4 5++ over T3 6+ (not generally ahead, but not terribly far behind). About the only advantage is you care a lot about losing 6 stealers, where you don't really care about losing ~10+ horms.

[bolk]

Oct 17, 2021 11:53:23 GMT No One said:

Just going through the BoB stuff, seeing if I can spot any other updates:
- Morphic sinews nerfed, no longer ignores heavy penalty in ER.

Bloody hell, I loved that adaptation for my custom Hive Fleet...

[kazetanade]

Oct 17, 2021 12:17:16 GMT xtztxtxz said:

Large durable Warrior blobs and the new durable Tervigon build effectively compete for the same midfield objective-holding role. I think the Warriors will just edge it in terms of having more damage output, and their synaptic link is useful to a wider range of units. Tervigons also are a bit more reliant on Maleceptors to take the edge off S8+ weapons, which has a hefty cost in both CP & points.

I think Tervigons with the CP refund relic will be more sustainable in the backfield as topaxygourouni has noted, especially as they support Hive Guard so well. Resupplying small units of guants can help to screen your deployment zone objectives and protect those squishy Hive Guard from drops.

I ran the numbers on fully buffed Hormas and they can manage some solid damage against light-medium vehicles or regular MEQs, but drop sharply against anything with T7+ or 2+ saves. For 3+ saves the AP stratagem is basically mandatory. While there is some potential, I think 'stealers will be far more effective for the resources invested. The challenge to deliver both units is still the same, but there will be very few targets that Genestealers with the same buffs can't dispatch or cripple in one go.

Stealers seldom ever get to crash into something that maximizes their value, or if it requires most of the unit to kill, the trade is always downwards - unfortunately our codex is just designed in that way. Just gotta deal with it. However, Stealers have an extremely high level of psychological warfare attached to them, whereas everyone will always underestimate Hormagants. And on a personal basis, running 2x Genestealers has usually been a recipe for disaster, since you lose so much for every body dead, you become too fragile even if you have the better damage output. 

Leviathan's supplement makes both Devilgants and Hormagants a keystone unit that is both expendable and underestimated, and will often push out more damage than people are ready or expecting to deal with. You can be sure that when people see Hormagants + Genestealers, they will go "Focus The Genestealers" and will try to line up a counter-charge or a counter-drop on them and feed them as little value as possible. Those smaller value trades are perfect for Hormagants, who will usually kill slightly less or equal points with these new buffs. They can kill Intercessors, Infiltrators, and the forward pushing units most armies like to throw (1cp for exploding hits, 1cp for -1ap, rerolling hits and Prime's auto wound of 6s will push approximately 12-15 damage through to a Marine unit; it kills Aggressors, almost kills Bladeguards, will slaughter Infils and AdM/Sister units. It will or should just about take out dogs. I think it could possibly kill or challenge weird units like Ssssylth as well. But their secret sauce is that no one will be expecting it until it hits them, and then they will not know how to deal with both a Hormagant and a GS unit behind them, unless they go mass Fliers. 

The problem is T6+, not T7; everything from T6 onwards is 6s to wound, where we'll score somewhat less wounds (expecting only 25 wounds in total), which is cut down pretty bad without ap. 2+ armor is basically the worst thing for us to tackle, since the saves get reduced down to like. 5 or 6 damage pushed through. Ignore AP1-2 is also in a similar boat since we cant get them to ap-3. 

After quite a bit of evaluation, I think that this supplement is aimed at people looking to play horde styled armies - Monster Mash gains somewhat little from this book, other than some interesting stuff like a surprise ObSec *SHOULDNT BE OBSEC* thing, and surprise changes to Chapter Tactic rules that could catch people really off guard (that Toxicrene that suddenly falls back from the Terminators he's in contact with, and charges squishy objective holders), and I need a closer look at that "CONSIDER WITHIN RANGE" of Synaptic Link strategem, because that could be a surprise killer that no one is expecting (Warriors or Heirodules again, suddenly Fall Back-Shoot-Charge from a hidden Trygon Prime). 

We may also want to consider 2 WLTs to be honest - Reposition with ability to go into Strat Reserves is big, esp with something like a (again) Heirodule if we're facing a storm of lascannons or something similar, and a full reroll is nearly mandatory since it powers up so many of our unit options - whether it be HG, Devilgants, Hormagants, Warriors/Ravs, Gargoyles/Boregants, if we're running damage dealing infantry we want that WLT. It really depends on whether there's a 2nd Adaptation we want, and it's not really necessary for most of my list ideas right now. 

EDIT: wat. 15 Genestealers is effectively the better than 30 Hormagants for the same price? Srsly? WHY GW WHY. I swear, Hormagants need 3A base. But disgressing, I think the 30 Hormagants still have a value as a charge/shock absorber/blocker that fills out space well, 15 Genestealers cant really do that too well. But if you've got enough other units to do that, I guess just stick with Genestealers. That does honestly make me sad though. 

[purestrain]

Devilgaunts squash things they look at when you use the exploding 6s stratagem

[No One]

kazetanade said:

and I need a closer look at that "CONSIDER WITHIN RANGE" of Synaptic Link strategem, because that could be a surprise killer that no one is expecting (Warriors or Heirodules again, suddenly Fall Back-Shoot-Charge from a hidden Trygon Prime).

It's mediocre: psychic phase weirdly (though lasts till next psychic phase) and it's just for the purpose of Synapse and IB.

We may also want to consider 2 WLTs to be honest - Reposition with ability to go into Strat Reserves is big, esp with something like a (again) Heirodule if we're facing a storm of lascannons or something similar, and a full reroll is nearly mandatory since it powers up so many of our unit options - whether it be HG, Devilgants, Hormagants, Warriors/Ravs, Gargoyles/Boregants, if we're running damage dealing infantry we want that WLT. It really depends on whether there's a 2nd Adaptation we want, and it's not really necessary for most of my list ideas right now.

Yeah, I think they're both really good. I think that the redeploy may actually be the better of the two, depending on list. Though very list dependant I think: strat reserved devilgants don't care about the rr, but redeploy just saves you a CP/lets you do something else while doing so, and while it's good to be able to deploy on the line for a sling if you need it, full rrs for that sling is also good. So it's just MCs really I think? But still *looks at bonesword flyrant* sure. Also just nice to be able to reposition if needed, but at only 2 units I don't think there's a huge deal you can do with this. Outside Swarmy+sling swapping flank I guess?

EDIT: wat. 15 Genestealers is effectively the better than 30 Hormagants for the same price? Srsly? WHY GW WHY. I swear, Hormagants need 3A base. But disgressing, I think the 30 Hormagants still have a value as a charge/shock absorber/blocker that fills out space well, 15 Genestealers cant really do that too well. But if you've got enough other units to do that, I guess just stick with Genestealers. That does honestly make me sad though.

I think you make a decent point about it being a replacement/complement, especially when you consider that (with all of these buffs stacked on the unit), your limiting factor may be ability to engage on targets, which horms are sort of better for with extra pile in and more bodies (there is the downside of no innate advance and charge to consider though). But I think the raw damage increase of the stealers base puts them ahead as the 'first/default' pick.

[bestaltan]

I’m starting to wonder if 60 devilgaunts may not be enough……

[No One]

Look at your delivery (only reliably strat reserve: on board is a definite maybe, but taking more...doesn't really help here I feel) and the fact you can only effectively buff one (well, I guess you could split rrs and tesla)? I think 60's fine.

[topaxygourouni]

I prefer mixed units. 15/15 or 20/10. So Tervigon can have something to revive.

[xetemara]

Octarius Nids (bad Quality screen captures)

Wetransfer Link: we.tl/t-yiRTyBCYhF

[bestaltan]

I did some very quick playtesting this afternoon with some of these rules against my Ad Mech. No formal game or anything, I just wanted to see how some of these rules play just in a damage and destruction scenario.

Wow.

Dropping +1 to hit on hive guard and popping the strat to make them Kronos, while popping the strat to allow them to perform an action……quite good.

Dropping the exploding 6’s strat on devilgaunts while allowing full rerolls from your warlord…….QUITE good.

Giving genestealers the autowounding on 6’s synaptic link and then popping the exploding 6’s strat in melee……QUITE GOOD.

The ability to burn 10 CP easily on your first turn…….quite bad.

I’m thinking what will make the army really good now is how well you husband your CP.

[xtztxtxz]

Oct 17, 2021 13:15:22 GMT kazetanade said:

Stealers seldom ever get to crash into something that maximizes their value, or if it requires most of the unit to kill, the trade is always downwards - unfortunately our codex is just designed in that way. Just gotta deal with it. However, Stealers have an extremely high level of psychological warfare attached to them, whereas everyone will always underestimate Hormagants. And on a personal basis, running 2x Genestealers has usually been a recipe for disaster, since you lose so much for every body dead, you become too fragile even if you have the better damage output. 

Leviathan's supplement makes both Devilgants and Hormagants a keystone unit that is both expendable and underestimated, and will often push out more damage than people are ready or expecting to deal with. You can be sure that when people see Hormagants + Genestealers, they will go "Focus The Genestealers" and will try to line up a counter-charge or a counter-drop on them and feed them as little value as possible. Those smaller value trades are perfect for Hormagants, who will usually kill slightly less or equal points with these new buffs. They can kill Intercessors, Infiltrators, and the forward pushing units most armies like to throw (1cp for exploding hits, 1cp for -1ap, rerolling hits and Prime's auto wound of 6s will push approximately 12-15 damage through to a Marine unit; it kills Aggressors, almost kills Bladeguards, will slaughter Infils and AdM/Sister units. It will or should just about take out dogs. I think it could possibly kill or challenge weird units like Ssssylth as well. But their secret sauce is that no one will be expecting it until it hits them, and then they will not know how to deal with both a Hormagant and a GS unit behind them, unless they go mass Fliers. 

The problem is T6+, not T7; everything from T6 onwards is 6s to wound, where we'll score somewhat less wounds (expecting only 25 wounds in total), which is cut down pretty bad without ap. 2+ armor is basically the worst thing for us to tackle, since the saves get reduced down to like. 5 or 6 damage pushed through. Ignore AP1-2 is also in a similar boat since we cant get them to ap-3. 

Sorry T7+ was a typo, I did mean T6+.

I agree both units can complement each other well in a 'threat overload' strategy. There will be different sets of targets for both units, as well as potential crossover in Hormas soaking overwatch or tagging units for 'stealers to kill. The only real contention is in which unit gets Relentless Flurry each turn.

Very curious to see if durable Genestealers can be a viable delivery option now:
Take them with Dynamic Camouflage & extended carapaces, plus a Broodlord with Synaptic upgrade
That's -1 to hit, then a 2+/5++/6+++ profile even in combat. In the early game the unit can also benefit from Catalyst / Maleceptor too, and even without those it's far more reliable protection from overwatch.

How many factions out there can ignore cover these days?

Of course another option could be just to run melee Primes / Broodlords alongside cheap hormas, giving them leadership / synapse / buff support plus heavy muscle where needed. BLs in particular will help them crack any trickier targets.