Warzone Octarius

[terminatoruk]

Oct 15, 2021 23:25:56 GMT xtztxtxz said:

Oct 15, 2021 22:17:37 GMT terminatoruk said:

That synaptic link for Tyranid Warriors is going to make Prime's totally pointless now surely (assuming the skill can be used on themselves?)

The fall back, shoot and charge should have been given to the Prime, not Trygon - would have been perfect for him looking after warriors.

Well you can put the +1 on basically any other unit, right? So Warriors get the current buff from the Prime while gaunts or hive guard benefit from a hit bonus too.

Then pick something for the Prime to give full rerolls to.

Yeah true.

Also just thinking the +2 is useful to ensure the warriors still hit on 3's when they advance, fire through dense or target something fast with -1 to hit...the end result would still be +1

[Rye]

No one is talking about the character assassin Flyrant
Flyrant with Mind Eater WL trait, Bonesword relic to ignore invulns and muderous size.

If you have a swarmlord as well, your flyrant can move 32" before advancing. Charge. Kill a character with ease. Then with the Mind eater WL trait, immediately make another move and advance, THEN overrun for ANOTHER move and advance.

You are lookin at around 80" of movement and the ability to retreat back into obscuring terrain.

[No One]

Not quite how that works. And it's still pretty mediocre because...well, WLT/adapts are in high demand, and overrun exists. Mind eater is end of the phase, so you need to be outside 3" if you want to overrun (which is instead of consolidate), then you can move again...

You also can't be within ER, which isn't necessarily super difficult, but does add an extra problem that, unless they just leave their Char completely hanging (which, to be fair, totally does happen), you're either not going to be able to charge it at all, or have to multi-charge due to space to get in combat. Still could be nice, since one advance is really all you need, except as previous, it competes with adapt/full rrs WLT/redeploy WLT to stick flyrant+Swarmlord forward for 1st (or devilgants in strat reserve), or possibly even outperformed by perfectly adapted for more reliable flyrant kills.

It's something I've thought about instead of an adapt, and the value of that does go up with ignore invuls for more reliable Char kills. But the value of other WLT competition also goes up.

[purestrain]

Devilgaunts with 6s exploding two extra hits, hitting on 3s and if u tervigon rerolling 1s and 2s?

[hivemindprimogenitor]

So does anyone know why the book is only available in the Chinese shop? For 7000yen and 11700 yen for the collectors book.

[No One]

I can see it just fine? Also that's Japan, not China...

[purestrain]

Holy good jesus, a 30man gargoyle pack that hits on 3s with full reroll hits and then 2cp 1 for 6s are 2 extra hits and +1 to wound with fleshborers 3 if you wanna use the mortal wound strat. Dive into combat and actually hit something.

[hivemindprimogenitor]

Oct 16, 2021 15:32:21 GMT No One said:

I can see it just fine? Also that's Japan, not China...

My bad. I confused the flags although I should've known better. I even knew it was yen and not yuan. Anyways. I don't see it on the US store so should I purchase on the Japanese one or wait? I would hate to buy something I can't read.

[xtztxtxz]

US preorders go up at 10am PST, about 45mins from now

[draaen]

I am surprised everyone is so down on the broodlord synaptic link. I think a 9 man blob of warriors with ignore AP 1 and 2 with 6+ FNP would be really hard to shift with light, heavy and dense cover. They would also be able to benefit from their +1 to hit or give it to someone else depending on the situation.

[bestaltan]

In my opinion, while it’s a good synaptic link, it’s facing serious competition. The warrior link is incredible, as is the prime’s, the maleceptor’s, the zoanthropes’……Only getting 3 links means somebody’s gotta go.

[kazetanade]

Oct 16, 2021 15:32:23 GMT purestrain said:

Holy good jesus, a 30man gargoyle pack that hits on 3s with full reroll hits and then 2cp 1 for 6s are 2 extra hits and +1 to wound with fleshborers 3 if you wanna use the mortal wound strat. Dive into combat and actually hit something.

Jesus christ - you're right, I forgot Gargoyles. 

They've got 12" move, if you Adapt for Kraken (or Pack Hunters if you want the extra ap) on that turn, they'll move 18"; with Onslaught, they'll reach the enemy with a 24" + 10" prob, so 34" before engaging combat. But this is unecessary with 24" base move and as infantry they go through walls so just save the 2cp. Then they shoot with exploding hits and reroll all hits, eat +1 to wound, and 6s MWs, and shoot twice, to force some crazy level of saves and 12 mortals on some seriously unlucky units. (Pls tell me this works). 

The resultant charge prob wont do too much, but they'll absorb a lot of hate from the frontlines. If you decided to bring a Prime for 6s auto wound, then you can actually force so many saves from the reroll to hit. 20% increase of the cost, with 40% increased performance. I like it. 

EDIT: Like an idiot, I completely forgot that SL or our Double Move strategems all barr shooting. So a Gargoyle unit only has 12+D6" range and 12" gun range thereafter to do stuff with. It's not the broken new toy I thought we found XD

I just played a game where 25 Hormagants basically ran into the enemy's forward deploy and trashed them with Behemoth's +1 to wound spell; I didnt have full reroll to hit, basically having to work with rr1s (with a -1 to hit in place) and rr1s to wound on 4+, and still cleared the whole midfield. If a shoot/charge unit like Gargoyles were to do it for 30pts more... big value. So big value, and removes the biggest part of the problem with making use of devilgants, which is how to get them in place to shoot without deepstrike and without Kraken's strategem. 

This gargoyle play reminds me fondly of that mental image of Gargoyles basically jamming themselves into jet plane engines to force them to crash, back in 6th or 7th formation days. Let's call this Gargoyle Cram School. XD

It's a bit expensive on cp though - 1cp for exploding 6s. 1cp for +1 to wound. 1cp for Mortal Wounds. (and potentially 2cp for shoot again) And I'm struggling to figure out the best kind of Synaptic Link for it. I gues +1 to hit would do, since it helps both melee and shooting, the rest are pretty targetted. But Light and Heavy Cover would also help a lot, as many of us know how Jorm Gaunts actually frustrate a lot of players since it isnt auto-dead gaunts anymore. This was an excellent suggestion, purestrain . 

Ugh. I just want the new 2 WLT and 2 Relic strategems already - it's annoying we have to pay 3cp for 2 relics, and can only buy 1 extra WLT. 

Someone please explain why every resource available is looking down on our first proper character assassin. If there was  4D rerollable wounds ignore invul in any other codex people would be all over that like ants at a picnic. The only thing is no reroll to hit, since it cant benefit from Swarm Leader, but seriously it's already a 16" moving FLY platform that also Smites and Screams, and has a gun that can either spit 3 flat damage at you, or spit a tonne of S6/S7 shots at you. And we havent started talking about taking out like, Drukhari/AdM characters with it, or stacking it with the very sharp extra -1ap after killing something for ap-4. What else are we spending Adaptations for anyway? It's not like HG are great for the Adaptation anymore when we're staring at stupid Ork buggies with 2d6 ignore LOS  at ap-3. If we've got a thick Warrior blob at least they get -1D on it too, and that's a big deal in this meta today with stupid Volkites and Buggies everywhere. 

I also think that psychic prowress will be pretty important. TS and GK are probably going to be big contenders for the new meta - I dunno about TS, but GK are decently poised to take on the troublesome AdM, Sisters, and Drukhari (other than mass Fliers which... they'll either get nerfed, or someone will figure it out eventually). When you are running into Vanguard/Ranger blobs and just outputing 18 MWs on the charge, or going in with enough ap-3 swords to basically wipe the squad without MWs, I dont think AdM will really want to tangle with and get involved in that. A lot of their power comes from their psychic prowress - so for us to have denial prowress and prevent their key spells like Gate, Hammerhand, etc to go off, is pretty important. Having a psyker that can cast really well or make spells undeniable also goes a long way to making sure that we can squash them and also prevent their interference. Besides, who doesnt want a 4 casting Flyrant with +1 to cast and 3d6 cast dice that has access to 5+ spells at once? Cant wait for our 2 tree psychic update, considering EVERYONE with psykers is getting 2 trees. 

The final question in my line really is... how do we fit all of these and make the Tervigon viable. XD I'm actually really keen on the reroll 1s and 2s to wound as I feel like the HG's biggest weakness is in their wound rolls, considering we were shooting at Kronos 3+ rr1s already and 2+ rr1s isnt that much better ahead of it. It just seems awkward in fitting a Tervigon in for a Kronos detachment in general. Assuming we kept everything in Leviathan though - having a T8 -1 wound platform that gives: rr all to hit, reroll 1s and 2s to wound for shooting, and regenerating Gaunts, with 1 spell. I guess it would come down to how easy is it to take advantage of their regen Gaunts ability, which we know traditionally is pretty hard considering how the regen works (ie all the gaunts have to kinda be spat out around it, necessating this thing to try and move up near the gaunts, and it doesnt let us daisychain for the cheese like it used to anymore.) Yea, until Tervigon gets a bit of a rework, this is probably a bit of a dead end eventhough it's potentially extremely troll and extremely durable. 

EDIT: re-reading the Broodlord Link, I'm actually a lot more up on it than I was originally. The Prime's is really too niche so that's crossed out; Tyranid Warriors are OK-ish as general output but give you no other functionality; Maleceptor's is too restricted on the number of beneficiaries, being basically HG, Trygons in combat, and Acidfexes (and itself in combat - har har har). Oh, and the Haruspex/Toxicrene, I guess. The Flyrant's one is really good if you're doing a big offensive push on several waves, as the units that get into combat basically want to move 6" (pile in conso if possible) to cover a lot more ground and get more guys in range, cuz getting in range is hard, but it's not a must take considering we've managed to work out this since forever anyway. Neurothrope is fringe play if you really want. Zoanthrope's really good for general psychic dominance if you actually want to swing that way. Tervigon's is great, if only it was 1s and 2s in both shoot/melee it'd basically come close to must take somehow. Trygon Prime's is so good - just impossible to use most of the time, since a Trygon Prime is unlikely to be on the table in the first place... Really feel like that should have been the Flyrants, and the Prime should have been pile in 6" instead, but eh. 

Did I miss any of the Links? Dont think so. So most of the links arent stinkers but are really narrow in application, my top picks so far are: 

1. Tervigon just because more rerolls is such a big deal for us and is IMO the main weakness for HG. But since this is SO HARD TO FIT INTO A LIST, it's probably a back burner.
2. Prime because I employ a lot of melee myself personally, and have a soft spot for Hormagants getting into combat, but this helps Genestealers trying to punch up at tough stuff too. But if I WASNT playing a lot of melee, then it would be pretty niche and useless, and getting Warriors buffs would be good since I guess that's the next best output boost. 
3. Broodlord because having Heavy Cover really changes the game for our melee fights. Seriously, having Heavy Cover is such a big deal for us even for Gaunts equivalent. 

It makes me feel like just general play, Broodlords and big 9 Warrior squads are going to be a staple. 

[windwalkerranger]

Oct 16, 2021 18:10:35 GMT kazetanade said:

Oct 16, 2021 15:32:23 GMT purestrain said:

Holy good jesus, a 30man gargoyle pack that hits on 3s with full reroll hits and then 2cp 1 for 6s are 2 extra hits and +1 to wound with fleshborers 3 if you wanna use the mortal wound strat. Dive into combat and actually hit something.

Jesus christ - you're right, I forgot Gargoyles. 

They've got 12" move, if you Adapt for Kraken (or Pack Hunters if you want the extra ap) on that turn, they'll move 18"; with Onslaught, they'll reach the enemy with a 24" + 10" prob, so 34" before engaging combat. But this is unecessary with 24" base move and as infantry they go through walls so just save the 2cp. Then they shoot with exploding hits and reroll all hits, eat +1 to wound, and 6s MWs, and shoot twice, to force some crazy level of saves and 12 mortals on some seriously unlucky units. (Pls tell me this works). 

The resultant charge prob wont do too much, but they'll absorb a lot of hate from the frontlines. If you decided to bring a Prime for 6s auto wound, then you can actually force so many saves from the reroll to hit. 20% increase of the cost, with 40% increased performance. I like it. 

I just played a game where 25 Hormagants basically ran into the enemy's forward deploy and trashed them with Behemoth's +1 to wound spell; I didnt have full reroll to hit, basically having to work with rr1s (with a -1 to hit in place) and rr1s to wound on 4+, and still cleared the whole midfield. If a shoot/charge unit like Gargoyles were to do it for 30pts more... big value. So big value, and removes the biggest part of the problem with making use of devilgants, which is how to get them in place to shoot without deepstrike and without Kraken's strategem. 

This gargoyle play reminds me fondly of that mental image of Gargoyles basically jamming themselves into jet plane engines to force them to crash, back in 6th or 7th formation days. Let's call this Gargoyle Cram School. XD

It's a bit expensive on cp though - 1cp for exploding 6s. 1cp for +1 to wound. 1cp for Mortal Wounds. (and potentially 2cp for shoot again) And I'm struggling to figure out the best kind of Synaptic Link for it. I gues +1 to hit would do, since it helps both melee and shooting, the rest are pretty targetted. But Light and Heavy Cover would also help a lot, as many of us know how Jorm Gaunts actually frustrate a lot of players since it isnt auto-dead gaunts anymore. This was an excellent suggestion, purestrain . 

Ugh. I just want the new 2 WLT and 2 Relic strategems already - it's annoying we have to pay 3cp for 2 relics, and can only buy 1 extra WLT. 

Someone please explain why every resource available is looking down on our first proper character assassin. If there was  4D rerollable wounds ignore invul in any other codex people would be all over that like ants at a picnic. The only thing is no reroll to hit, since it cant benefit from Swarm Leader, but seriously it's already a 16" moving FLY platform that also Smites and Screams, and has a gun that can either spit 3 flat damage at you, or spit a tonne of S6/S7 shots at you. And we havent started talking about taking out like, Drukhari/AdM characters with it, or stacking it with the very sharp extra -1ap after killing something for ap-4. What else are we spending Adaptations for anyway? It's not like HG are great for the Adaptation anymore when we're staring at stupid Ork buggies with 2d6 ignore LOS  at ap-3. If we've got a thick Warrior blob at least they get -1D on it too, and that's a big deal in this meta today with stupid Volkites and Buggies everywhere. 

I also think that psychic prowress will be pretty important. TS and GK are probably going to be big contenders for the new meta - I dunno about TS, but GK are decently poised to take on the troublesome AdM, Sisters, and Drukhari (other than mass Fliers which... they'll either get nerfed, or someone will figure it out eventually). When you are running into Vanguard/Ranger blobs and just outputing 18 MWs on the charge, or going in with enough ap-3 swords to basically wipe the squad without MWs, I dont think AdM will really want to tangle with and get involved in that. A lot of their power comes from their psychic prowress - so for us to have denial prowress and prevent their key spells like Gate, Hammerhand, etc to go off, is pretty important. Having a psyker that can cast really well or make spells undeniable also goes a long way to making sure that we can squash them and also prevent their interference. Besides, who doesnt want a 4 casting Flyrant with +1 to cast and 3d6 cast dice that has access to 5+ spells at once? Cant wait for our 2 tree psychic update, considering EVERYONE with psykers is getting 2 trees. 

The final question in my line really is... how do we fit all of these and make the Tervigon viable. XD I'm actually really keen on the reroll 1s and 2s to wound as I feel like the HG's biggest weakness is in their wound rolls, considering we were shooting at Kronos 3+ rr1s already and 2+ rr1s isnt that much better ahead of it. It just seems awkward in fitting a Tervigon in for a Kronos detachment in general. Assuming we kept everything in Leviathan though - having a T8 -1 wound platform that gives: rr all to hit, reroll 1s and 2s to wound for shooting, and regenerating Gaunts, with 1 spell. I guess it would come down to how easy is it to take advantage of their regen Gaunts ability, which we know traditionally is pretty hard considering how the regen works (ie all the gaunts have to kinda be spat out around it, necessating this thing to try and move up near the gaunts, and it doesnt let us daisychain for the cheese like it used to anymore.) Yea, until Tervigon gets a bit of a rework, this is probably a bit of a dead end eventhough it's potentially extremely troll and extremely durable. 

EDIT: re-reading the Broodlord Link, I'm actually a lot more up on it than I was originally. The Prime's is really too niche so that's crossed out; Tyranid Warriors are OK-ish as general output but give you no other functionality; Maleceptor's is too restricted on the number of beneficiaries, being basically HG, Trygons in combat, and Acidfexes (and itself in combat - har har har). Oh, and the Haruspex/Toxicrene, I guess. The Flyrant's one is really good if you're doing a big offensive push on several waves, as the units that get into combat basically want to move 6" (pile in conso if possible) to cover a lot more ground and get more guys in range, cuz getting in range is hard, but it's not a must take considering we've managed to work out this since forever anyway. Neurothrope is fringe play if you really want. Zoanthrope's really good for general psychic dominance if you actually want to swing that way. Tervigon's is great, if only it was 1s and 2s in both shoot/melee it'd basically come close to must take somehow. Trygon Prime's is so good - just impossible to use most of the time, since a Trygon Prime is unlikely to be on the table in the first place... Really feel like that should have been the Flyrants, and the Prime should have been pile in 6" instead, but eh. 

Did I miss any of the Links? Dont think so. So most of the links arent stinkers but are really narrow in application, my top picks so far are: 

1. Tervigon just because more rerolls is such a big deal for us and is IMO the main weakness for HG. But since this is SO HARD TO FIT INTO A LIST, it's probably a back burner.
2. Prime because I employ a lot of melee myself personally, and have a soft spot for Hormagants getting into combat, but this helps Genestealers trying to punch up at tough stuff too. But if I WASNT playing a lot of melee, then it would be pretty niche and useless, and getting Warriors buffs would be good since I guess that's the next best output boost. 
3. Broodlord because having Heavy Cover really changes the game for our melee fights. Seriously, having Heavy Cover is such a big deal for us even for Gaunts equivalent. 

It makes me feel like just general play, Broodlords and big 9 Warrior squads are going to be a staple. 

Regarding the tervigon; I think we are focusing too much on killing power that obviously comes with the new toys. But there's also the defensive play, the board presence and the secondary objectives to keep in mind. At this moment I'm strongly thinking on giving the tervigon the -1 to wound relic along with the dermic symbiosis. I also fully intent to play a maleceptor and keep the two together, perhaps even in addition to a malanthroph (the last one is a maybe). All of this just to be able to take "to the last", which should be zoanthrophs, 30xdevilgants, and the tervigon. I'll arrange the rest of the list accordingly. We all know how hard zoans to remove with their pesky 3++, and in leviathan they already get the 6+++. The same goes for the devilgants who will surely get the protection of the broodlord, and who will get replaced by the tervigon as they go down in numbers. And the tervigon will simply not die as long as I can keep feeding the maleceptor strategem. dark lances will hurt it in 6' alone. My insides are going fuzzy thinking about it. AND if I have a malanthroph in there, all of these guys will also get -1 to hit ( in which case maybe the protection from broodlord will be unnecessary).

All of the others, rerolling 1's and 2's to wounds, +1 to hits etc, I'm thinking on precision strikes on opponent characters with toxicrene or genestealer squads or broodlord if my opponent agrees, to use the feeder tendril strategem to regain cp's. AND of course, with proper hive guard support.

Take to the last, octarius data and engage on all fronts, and play the vp game. That's currently what I'm thinking. 

[bestaltan]

Hmmmmm……..broodlord link with dynamic camouflage adaptation. 2+ AS warriors.

[xtztxtxz]

Quick thought - with these Synaptic Links the Leviathan psychic power from BoB may actually be worth taking now. Especially in the late game when some synapse units have fallen, getting 18" synapse range for everything could extend these essential bonuses anywhere on the table.