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Post by yoritomo on Jul 17, 2021 17:10:25 GMT
The problem is that GW needs to just double everything, double wounds, double damage, double Strength & Toughness and then they have 2x the amount of numbers to play with on where a gun sits profile wise. Ignoring dicerolls is just absolutely horrible. Removing peoples ability to reroll is horrible, etc. You don't want the other person not feeling like their army isn't the coolest (please do not swear) in the world and they do that so often lol. I have 4 different armies now and there are a lot of instances where i put something down have a cool rule and someone is like, yeah but this thing just absolutely slays you and ruins your life. the profiles of a bolter compared to a las gun is very close mechanic wise and they just need to give themselves enough room to play around with them. They already have so many layers of mitigation first the person has to hit, then they have to wound, then you have to fail your save/invuln and then you also need to fail your FNP. There really isn't a reason to just add another defensive layer just use the numbers better. No, this is wrong. GW does not need to double everything. Just doubling everything wouldn't help. What needs to happen is a massive increase in points across the board. I know it's unpopular, but what needs to happen for good balance. The more points you have to work with the more room you have to dial in exactly how much a unit should cost compared to how lethal it is. Let's look at the marine and gaunt example again. If the basic marine was 100 points that would make the gaunt about 25 points. If I wanted to make tyranids more swarm like than I could cut the price of gaunts with much more precision than just the one or two points GW can reduce them by currently. Since we're talking about things that aren't going to happen, moving to a d10 or d20 system instead of a d6 system would do wonders for balancing out the game. What do you think would happen if instead of always succeeding on a 6 (16% chance of success) you always succeed on a 20 (5% chance of success). The difference in strength versus toughness could also be fleshed out so that minor differences could have a much bigger impact. Then again, this will never happen. I also feel that I should address some of the wish listers here. Having the opinion that we don't need a new unit or would like to see our current units reworked first is a perfectly valid opinion. Just reminding people that this is a whishlisting thread and making them feel unwelcome stifles discussion, and that's not what this forum is about. However, in the sprit of whishlisting, I will point out that the biggest need in the tyranid codex is a knight killing unit. In the past we had to spam devilflyrants to deal with them; but this is not an elegant solution and got our flyrants restricted. If we had something that could consistently keep a knight at bay than would do a lot to help our codex out going forward. Info is correct that whatever we get shouldn't be a ForgeWorld model. I am all about supporting my local game store, and they can't get ForgeWorld models. You may go to the web to get everything you need to play 40K, and that's fine; but I do my best to support the places I play at. That means that if I had any say in it the new tyranid modes wouldn't be from ForgeWorld (or even GW exclusive for that matter). |
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Post by Shadowwolf on Jul 19, 2021 18:54:42 GMT
I'm honestly missing a lot of the cover rules of the earlier editions. Since Tyranids have always had kinda bad saves, instead relying on toughness and wounds (unless you're a 5W, T7 carnifex with a 2+ armour save from 5th) to survive damage. Or cover. Smother the enemy with targets, screen them with useless gaunts so the important guys live. I've lost that feeling in the game, where positioning mattered more, but perhaps it could be brought back?
Venomthropes brought a lot of more interesting stuff when they were introduced, giving Tyranids a mobile cover unit. Sure, it doesn't negate damage completely, the way transports do, but with a screen of gaunts and a venomthrope behind, the reilience of your army increased dramatically! Perhaps what we need is a Shield Bug instead of a transport?? Imagine a large, armoured bug with huge chitin plates protruding to either side and large smokestacks to provide spore cloud ccover. Because why would the Hive Mind ever let it's prey have a clear and open field of fire? Give it a heckin' chonky resilience and almost no offensive capacity and let it become terrain if it dies. Very interesting from a tactical point of view. Same thing could be achieved with f.ex. Zoanthropes and a warp field umbrella power, perhaps granting an area invulnerability save from shooting.
As for assassination, I agree with previous speakers about the Lictor. And if Raveners could just pop up next to a command squad and bury them in rending claws, I would also be a happy camper. Too many things are there to be dangerous so space marines can be herioc when they shoot them...
It would also be fun to see some building-typ units and fortifications, perhaps to represent the stages of planetary consumption. I'd definitely enjoy some Tyranid 'upgrades' to the terrain section, like fortifications and bastions and whatnots. Drop pods are cool, sure, but who wouldn't want a spore chimney dominating the battlefield, or a ripper infestation turning a piece of terrain dangerous for enemies, or tervigon-esque spawning pools or fortification walls full of warriors, slowly advancing on citinous claws or whatnot? To collapse the ground beneath our enemies and bury them in a new piece of terrain? Our enemies shouldn't have to fight just our army, they should have to fight the very air they breathe, the ground they walk and the world they thought was theirs!
It would also be cool to see some more synergy-based units. Perhaps a transportation-based Harpy, that could let units hitch a ride on it for a movement phase? Rapid re-deployment a la teleportation, just with organic flavour? Or some kind of malanthrope-like bug that can rapidly adapt units through sheer force of will, handing out boosts to toghness, strength or WS? It would be pretty rad to change the characteristics of units depending on how the opposition develops on the board!
I'd also like to see less stratagems and more unit- and army-wide universal special rules, but now I guess I'm just wishing...
It would also be cool to see something along the lines of a Dominatrix, a super-heavy synapse beast. Would make for great narrative games and would be a great centerpiece for an army, although it would probably be a case of too many eggs in one basket and end up a unkillable-space-marine-super-dudebro-magnet.
I'd also like to see something that could control enemy movement, that would be fun. Perhaps a penalty to movement if you've been hit by slime, or a stranglethorn cannon. Or maybe let Flesh hooks drag targets out of their units (still maintaining coherency) so they can be picked off? Now THAT would be a synergetic assassination mechanic!
Shadowwolf
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Post by mattblowers on Jul 19, 2021 20:51:27 GMT
Playable current units > more unplayable worthless units
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Post by infornography on Jul 20, 2021 15:21:51 GMT
Venomthropes brought a lot of more interesting stuff when they were introduced, giving Tyranids a mobile cover unit. Sure, it doesn't negate damage completely, the way transports do, but with a screen of gaunts and a venomthrope behind, the resilience of your army increased dramatically! Perhaps what we need is a Shield Bug instead of a transport?? Imagine a large, armoured bug with huge chitin plates protruding to either side and large smokestacks to provide spore cloud ccover. Because why would the Hive Mind ever let it's prey have a clear and open field of fire? Give it a heckin' chonky resilience and almost no offensive capacity and let it become terrain if it dies. Very interesting from a tactical point of view. Same thing could be achieved with f.ex. Zoanthropes and a warp field umbrella power, perhaps granting an area invulnerability save from shooting. I LOVE this idea! Mobile LOS blocking terrain that can be killed and turned into stationary LOS blocking terrain is SO Tyraniddy! Brilliant! It would also be fun to see some building-typ units and fortifications, perhaps to represent the stages of planetary consumption. I'd definitely enjoy some Tyranid 'upgrades' to the terrain section, like fortifications and bastions and whatnots. Drop pods are cool, sure, but who wouldn't want a spore chimney dominating the battlefield, or a ripper infestation turning a piece of terrain dangerous for enemies, or tervigon-esque spawning pools or fortification walls full of warriors, slowly advancing on citinous claws or whatnot? To collapse the ground beneath our enemies and bury them in a new piece of terrain? Our enemies shouldn't have to fight just our army, they should have to fight the very air they breathe, the ground they walk and the world they thought was theirs! This is also quite cool. I like the concept of some of our units making certain terrain dangerous for the enemy. Rippers for forest areas, Genestealers for ruins, etc. It would make removing the unit from that terrain a higher priority before moving in. It would also be cool to see some more synergy-based units. Perhaps a transportation-based Harpy, that could let units hitch a ride on it for a movement phase? Rapid re-deployment a la teleportation, just with organic flavour? Or some kind of malanthrope-like bug that can rapidly adapt units through sheer force of will, handing out boosts to toghness, strength or WS? It would be pretty rad to change the characteristics of units depending on how the opposition develops on the board! I would like to see tunnels become a thing for nids. Like, you can mark entry and exit tunnel points and any unit can enter the tunnel and at the end of the next movement round, come out any other tunnel marker. That should be our transportation method! And make it so you can collapse a tunnel entrance with sufficent firepower. Should be doable without too much effort, but not so easy as to be trivial. It would also be cool to see something along the lines of a Dominatrix, a super-heavy synapse beast. Would make for great narrative games and would be a great centerpiece for an army, although it would probably be a case of too many eggs in one basket and end up a unkillable-space-marine-super-dudebro-magnet. Oh, I have no delusions about a plastic LOW not being a big kill me target for every heavy gun the enemy has, but I still want one if for no other reason than to assemble the beastie and have it look cool on a shelf :-) |
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Post by windwalkerranger on Jul 21, 2021 16:50:15 GMT
Regarding the sniping: I have been successfully implementing a single kraken broodlord as a character sniper. With the double advance strategem, and if needed the push by the Swarmy, this guy can walk around everything and find it's target character, and kill it. If the positioning is right I also smite and scream beforehand. You are using a CP for the advance, and if the target survives with 1 hp, you push the implant attack for another cp, but considering the fact that Broodlord is a Genestealer and can use the CP-recovery strategem, you get one of those cp's back on average. If you don't want to spend CP and you can suffer a single round of the enemy character surviving, you can do all of these in a later turn safely, as Blord will probably will survive if it doesn't charge into enemy lines.
We have a really good transport option actually, called the strategic reserves. The board is so small right now that you can safely bet to engage antyhing relevant after arriving from a board edge. All you need is cp. If you don't want to use cp, then you can use the tunneling shennanigans with lictors and trygons and whatnot. 30 jormungandr devilgants arriving with a lictor bubble is 2cp, but the damage output is insane.
As a race maybe we lack units that implement certain rules, but remember, there are armies out there who don't even have psykers. I have recently been working on an idea where the armylist is built to be mortal in every phase. We can deal mortal wounds on movement phase (harpy mines), on psychic phase (smite, scream), on shooting phase (voracious ammo), on charge phase (carnifexii, behemoth strategem), combat phase (xenogenic acid, swarmlord), and we can reduce enemy leadership to be more damaging on morale phase (which can be considered a form or mortal wounds).
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Post by beetlejuice on Jul 21, 2021 18:12:25 GMT
Regarding the sniping: I have been successfully implementing a single kraken broodlord as a character sniper. With the double advance strategem, and if needed the push by the Swarmy, this guy can walk around everything and find it's target character, and kill it. If the positioning is right I also smite and scream beforehand. You are using a CP for the advance, and if the target survives with 1 hp, you push the implant attack for another cp, but considering the fact that Broodlord is a Genestealer and can use the CP-recovery strategem, you get one of those cp's back on average. If you don't want to spend CP and you can suffer a single round of the enemy character surviving, you can do all of these in a later turn safely, as Blord will probably will survive if it doesn't charge into enemy lines. We have a really good transport option actually, called the strategic reserves. The board is so small right now that you can safely bet to engage antyhing relevant after arriving from a board edge. All you need is cp. If you don't want to use cp, then you can use the tunneling shennanigans with lictors and trygons and whatnot. 30 jormungandr devilgants arriving with a lictor bubble is 2cp, but the damage output is insane. As a race maybe we lack units that implement certain rules, but remember, there are armies out there who don't even have psykers. I have recently been working on an idea where the armylist is built to be mortal in every phase. We can deal mortal wounds on movement phase (harpy mines), on psychic phase (smite, scream), on shooting phase (voracious ammo), on charge phase (carnifexii, behemoth strategem), combat phase (xenogenic acid, swarmlord), and we can reduce enemy leadership to be more damaging on morale phase (which can be considered a form or mortal wounds). broodlord is indeed a GENESTEALER but not a Genestealer unit which is what feeder tendrils strat requires so no refunding CP (although this has been debated at length in other threads). You still need to make it through screens and you are sacrificing a 125pts model (it WILL did next turn) that will not trade favourably reliably. Might have niche use vs some opponents I guess that lean heavily on buff chars, I’ve sniped apothecaries in resiliance based list in a similar fashion. But how do you get past 120 robots to reach the marshal? |
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Post by windwalkerranger on Jul 21, 2021 18:59:50 GMT
broodlord is indeed a GENESTEALER but not a Genestealer unit which is what feeder tendrils strat requires so no refunding CP (although this has been debated at length in other threads). You still need to make it through screens and you are sacrificing a 125pts model (it WILL did next turn) that will not trade favourably reliably. Might have niche use vs some opponents I guess that lean heavily on buff chars, I’ve sniped apothecaries in resiliance based list in a similar fashion. But how do you get past 120 robots to reach the marshal? Well, I noticed that with the current meta there are more characters than can be screened by flak. I fought against necrons with many 2xtechnomancers, 2xchronomancers, 2xwardens, and 1 overlord, and a C'tan. That's characters galore. You can bet your... something valuable... that there will be an opening. I've also fought against Space Wolves with 1xassasin, 2xbiker librarian, wolf lord, a chaplain, and a techmarine. In such cases it's very difficult for the opponent to cover up for each and every character. On top of my head I remember, for instance, dive bombing the broodlord into Necron warlord to prevent the orb from going of (though it used the special character-revival strategem and succeeded in the check...) In that case it was worth the sacrifice of the Broodlord. I also did dive into a techmarine once to prevent him from repairing a Land Raider if my memory serves correct. There are several instances where Broodlord is slightly more expensive than the targeted character, but the exchange still can favor us. In other cases, you don't always have to dive bomb in the first round. You can keep your broodlord safe and dive in the following rounds when opportunity arises. This can be safer or less cp intensive. If I knew for sure that broodlord is going to stay back in the first round or two, then I'd switch out psy-scream for something like onslaught perhaps, or maybe just horror if I don't want to spend the resonance barb on him. And yet in other cases, like happened to me once, you can just reach out to impossible distances to kill a target (in my case it was a vindicare camping a far corner forest) with him and then deepstrike your rippers to close proximity as a screen. They both prevent blord being shot directly, and protect against potential counter-chargers. Also remember we have a strategem called overrun. It's often forgotten but if you have the cp, you can then move+advance with a unit if it destroyed its target in melee. I haven't used it yet, mostly due to not having enough cp, but it can be used to return the Blord back/into safety. It's especially potent if you doubled your advance with kraken, and got, say, 18 movement out of him. And on that assasination subject, also remember that you succeed putting wounds into a character in other ways, like maybe a winged tyrant advancing into a good position and dealing 3 mw with smite, then you can use a mawloc to finisht the target off. AND, there's of course the Red Terror. Best served in a behemoth detachment, it can deepstrike and charge into a character, and for most characters it will have 1 in 3 chance of killing it. And if it fails to kill its target and is then killed in melee, and you feel you have an abundance of CP, you can use the 2cp character-fights-agains strategem for another 1 in 3 chance, totalling something like 1 in 2 chance of success. I have attempted this against necrons before once, but the 9" charge failed despite the reroll. What I mean to say is, while we don't specifically have units with sniper rifles, we have units that can, with some inefficiency on points and/or cp perhaps, similar effect. |
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Post by infornography on Jul 21, 2021 20:13:56 GMT
What I mean to say is, while we don't specifically have units with sniper rifles, we have units that can, with some inefficiency on points and/or cp perhaps, similar effect. And my point is that most other codecies don't have those built in inefficiencies for the same functionality. They can remove characters at range in relative safety with varying degrees of points efficiency. Just look at what the Assassins codex units are capable of for the points. I want at least Deathleaper to be THAT cool. Yeah, would still be probably a melee assassin, but if dedicated to that role, it could at least be good at it. If our assassin unit has to be a suicide assassin, I want them to at least be extra lethal to make the exchange worth it. I like the idea of us being able to shut down auras with lictors/Deathleaper except for one teeny tiny problem. Those units are fragile as heck! For them to get close enough to shut down the auras they would die within a turn to trivial amounts of firepower. Maybe if they were made VERY hard to kill that would be a cool concept, but I'm not sure that makes much sense either. Maybe give them character protection by being near enemy infantry? Might be OP though, but at least then they would need to assassinate our assassin, heavily disrupt their own screens, or get into melee with it... The more I think about it the more I think that is the solution... Make their melee at least threatening, give them an anti-aura aura, and let them get character protection from enemy infantry. Then they can be the assassin/disruption unit they were always meant to be... |
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Post by windwalkerranger on Jul 22, 2021 0:32:26 GMT
What I mean to say is, while we don't specifically have units with sniper rifles, we have units that can, with some inefficiency on points and/or cp perhaps, similar effect. And my point is that most other codecies don't have those built in inefficiencies for the same functionality. They can remove characters at range in relative safety with varying degrees of points efficiency. Just look at what the Assassins codex units are capable of for the points. I want at least Deathleaper to be THAT cool. Yeah, would still be probably a melee assassin, but if dedicated to that role, it could at least be good at it. If our assassin unit has to be a suicide assassin, I want them to at least be extra lethal to make the exchange worth it. I like the idea of us being able to shut down auras with lictors/Deathleaper except for one teeny tiny problem. Those units are fragile as heck! For them to get close enough to shut down the auras they would die within a turn to trivial amounts of firepower. Maybe if they were made VERY hard to kill that would be a cool concept, but I'm not sure that makes much sense either. Maybe give them character protection by being near enemy infantry? Might be OP though, but at least then they would need to assassinate our assassin, heavily disrupt their own screens, or get into melee with it... The more I think about it the more I think that is the solution... Make their melee at least threatening, give them an anti-aura aura, and let them get character protection from enemy infantry. Then they can be the assassin/disruption unit they were always meant to be... Believe me I feel the pain of seeing our cool units that in lore should go toe to toe with best of the bunch bounce back from paper armor. The issue is mostly in the low number of attacks and low damage output. However in terms of points just note that 2 lictors can gain the charge and kill many of the characters. A deathleaper has a good chance to kill a necron technomancer or a chronomancer, and is cheaper than both. Points for points it works. It's just the elite slot that makes it hard. I understand your point. Other armies do some things much better than us. But that's how it goes in 40K. Dark eldar, for instance, have no psychic phase to speak of, while tyranids are good at it. Many armies have no access to being fearless, while we rarely fall out of synapse range. But we don't have open topped vehicles to hide our devilgants inside for safe shooting. The balance is not in the form where every single faction has access to every single mechanic and/or unit stereotypes. It's on a much larger scale where you sometimes have to use units outside of their intended roles, or come up with unconventional means to the same end. And that's the beauty of it. A few changes to our unit slots I really would like to see: 1-Pyrovores that can be taken for up to 9 models, 2-Hive tyrant kitting options to make them reach 7 attacks in melee, or the ability to wield 2 Heavy Venom Cannons or Barbed Stranglers, or the ability to wield 4x devourers without becoming a pancake in melee. I'm willing to accept only 1 tyrant per detachment rule. 3-Some form of unending swarm mechanic. Maybe pay the power cost of a gaunt unit in CP to bring it back from table edge? 4-When a unit takes damage from the mawloc deepstrike ability, they should lose the ability to charge anything else but the mawloc. (They are now inside the huge crater that leats to it's tunnel) I'd pay in CP. 5-Definately better relics. 6-Something that corresponds to necron protocols, space marine doctrines, drukhari power from pain etc. Something that we select and/or applies during the command phase that alters something. Tyranids are known to be adapt rapidly to situations and even mutate on the battle. Sth like: if we destroyed a unit last turn, one tyranid unit gets +1str or +1atk. If we lost a unit last turn, one tyranid unit gets +1t or +1sv. Not cumulative. |
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Post by joysan76 on Jul 22, 2021 6:49:53 GMT
i was thinking to the ymgarl factor...
and if any unit may have 3 sensible stats and in the command phase any synapse unit may activate one of these adaptation for one friendly unit in range per turn (obviusly any unit may be improved in this way once per turn) ?
as sample... warrior may have adaptable stats as T, A, Sv while carnifex S, T, A so in my command phase warriors can chose or to raise one of their adaptable stat or one of the carnifex in range
to set that won't b a great problem would be enogh to set the stat name in red or deep black colour
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Post by garg on Jul 22, 2021 8:20:12 GMT
I really like the idea of lictors being a disruption unit where they turn off auras and stop the character from doing anything.
I'm not sure lictors need to be all that survivable to go with it. It would be a powerful tool if for one turn you can shutdown a character and then die afterwards so long as they stay similar in points. DL should have better offense and defense, maybe only hit on 6s like the celexus.
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Post by zimko on Jul 22, 2021 14:22:17 GMT
i was thinking to the ymgarl factor... and if any unit may have 3 sensible stats and in the command phase any synapse unit may activate one of these adaptation for one friendly unit in range per turn (obviusly any unit may be improved in this way once per turn) ? as sample... warrior may have adaptable stats as T, A, Sv while carnifex S, T, A so in my command phase warriors can chose or to raise one of their adaptable stat or one of the carnifex in range to set that won't b a great problem would be enogh to set the stat name in red or deep black colour I miss the 3rd edition codex where you could customize warriors and gaunts/gants into new units by paying points for stats. |
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Post by joysan76 on Jul 22, 2021 15:11:39 GMT
me too, with the actual set of rules probably owuld be something too much complex to do but the adaptive biology if reworked in a better way may be really cool to
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Post by Freeman on Jul 22, 2021 22:20:29 GMT
The biggest tweak I’d like to see is monsters to count as more than one model when holding objectives. It’s annoying to see a Tfex being taken off an objective by two (please do not swear) servitor.
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Post by mule on Jul 23, 2021 0:48:00 GMT
The biggest tweak I’d like to see is monsters to count as more than one model when holding objectives. It’s annoying to see a Tfex being taken off an objective by two (please do not swear) servitor. this is better for the game tbh, otherwise tanks and knights will get the same thing. |
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