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Post by infornography on Jul 15, 2021 17:08:11 GMT
The ability to competently remove characters has actually become pretty important and the fluff definitely supports us having the occasional giant beastie, but I get your point. The issue with transports isn't JUST the protection but also the speed. Yeah we have a couple of tools available to give a couple units a jump start but those take resources that other codecies aren't having to spend for the same basic utility. If Lictors worked like the fluff, we would have our assassins. A lot of the point of this thread was to try to identify what roles COULD be filled in our codex. I know what I don't want to see is yet another giant bug with a giant gun or yet another giant melee bug that struggles to kill standard space marines in meaningful quantities. We have those things covered. What DON'T we have covered? Give us more stratagems and special effects like swarmy. lictors can't really work like assassins because they'd have to be so good at killing characters that they'd be too expensive. right now the only characters they can kill is like squishy things like guard and gettting through chaff is too hard. melee assassins are really rough and probably wont ever be in a good place. What i want to see, is our things get survivability, either through a points reduction or higher T / more wounds. A few extra units for GW to forget about in the next codex isn't going to fix our army. The way I see Lictors working as assassins is that they would be uniquely able to deep strike into melee with maybe a die roll for success, have very strong melee attacks able to deal with most non-named characters, come in 1-3 models per unit so you can overcome some of the stronger non-named characters and some of the weaker named ones, but still be flimsy so they can be used as suicide assassins. Yeah, there would be ways of avoiding that, such as tightly clumping your screens around the characters to protect them, but then you can bring things like Mawlocs to punish that tactic. Make deathleaper able to deal with the average named characters but not the top shelf ones and maybe also buff nearby lictors so you can team up on a hard target. Maybe also make it so Deathleaper lets lictors call the targets in a unit, for example if you need to remove that lascannon from the tactical squad, you deathleaper the nearby captain and lictor the special weapons out of the the squad leaving them with some unsupported bolter guys. Yeah, lictors would probably need to go up slightly in points but then they would be able to fulfill their fluff role. |
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Post by yoritomo on Jul 15, 2021 17:44:07 GMT
So I disagree with just about everything inforngraphy said. We don't need transports. We don't need snipers. We don't need a Lord of War. We don't need sergeants or lieutenants. (okay, that last one wasn't info's)
What we need is out of the box thinking. Tyranids aren't an army that plays like other armies and our rules should reflect this. And that is the real issue here, the rules don't support how the army is supposed to play.
Are we a fast army? Then why do we have so many units that move 5"? Why do our tank bugs move half the speed as other tank units?
Are we a melee army? Then where are our good melee weapons? Where are our good melee units?
Are we a swarm army? Then why do we only get two gaunts per space marine on a ppw basis?
The sad thing is that it wouldn't take much to correct these things. Tyranids don't get transports? Fine, make their base movement 8" and give special rules to the fast ones. Tyranids don't get snipers? Fine, make lictors shut off character/unit abilities. Tyranids don't get a Lord of War in their codex? Fine, give our big bugs a stat and weapon boost. Tyranids suffer a penalty for being out of synapse? Fine, then give them a buff like feel no pain for being in synapse.
Tyranids don't really need much to be a good codex. We're not in a bad place. We just need some tweaks to the basic parts of how our army plays and we can do really well. If anything I hope the next codex gives the army some direction. A bit of focus would help the tyranids out greatly.
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Post by infornography on Jul 15, 2021 17:59:11 GMT
So I disagree with just about everything inforngraphy said. We don't need transports. We don't need snipers. We don't need a Lord of War. We don't need sergeants or lieutenants. (okay, that last one wasn't info's) What we need is out of the box thinking. Tyranids aren't an army that plays like other armies and our rules should reflect this. And that is the real issue here, the rules don't support how the army is supposed to play. Are we a fast army? Then why do we have so many units that move 5"? Why do our tank bugs move half the speed as other tank units? Are we a melee army? Then where are our good melee weapons? Where are our good melee units? Are we a swarm army? Then why do we only get two gaunts per space marine on a ppw basis? The sad thing is that it wouldn't take much to correct these things. Tyranids don't get transports? Fine, make their base movement 8" and give special rules to the fast ones. Tyranids don't get snipers? Fine, make lictors shut off character/unit abilities. Tyranids don't get a Lord of War in their codex? Fine, give our big bugs a stat and weapon boost. Tyranids suffer a penalty for being out of synapse? Fine, then give them a buff like feel no pain for being in synapse. Tyranids don't really need much to be a good codex. We're not in a bad place. We just need some tweaks to the basic parts of how our army plays and we can do really well. If anything I hope the next codex gives the army some direction. A bit of focus would help the tyranids out greatly. Fair enough, and nothing I haven't said before honestly. But we have been needing these things for multiple editions straight! Every time we get a new bug since 5th edition though? It fills a role that was already filled. It handles a niche that is already handled. Yeah, I would rather see what we have be better than getting new units, but new units get GW more money so trying to identify where new units COULD be useful. I realize that intent was not clear. There is a lot of things that I would do differently if I were designing 40k for the players rather than the shareholders. Fewer redundant units would be a big one and a tighter ruleset that doesn't completely upheave everything every edition is another. Unfortunately that is not the world we live in... |
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Post by garg on Jul 15, 2021 20:36:09 GMT
What could be flavourful and useful is a bioform where the gun organisms can detach from the parent and act independently. Like drones on some tau vehicles. Maybe they can only leave the main bioform when it dies.
This would give the layered units advantage that transports give but not others.
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Post by irondreddknight on Jul 15, 2021 21:49:55 GMT
Honestly, I'd be happy to just have dirt cheap units and keep things as is. So we can play actual hordes without spamming gants.. Also some new sculpts for old one eye and the red terror.. If I'm dreaming, I'd love to see the doom of malantai return!
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Post by acehilator on Jul 15, 2021 22:00:42 GMT
Nids need to be the #1 faction for auras with a wide power margin to whatever faction winds up at the #2 spot. Link the aura effects to Synapse and go to town. If anybody ever deserved Papa Smurfs original 8E aura, it's Swarmy. Posted this a few weeks ago.
Synapse base ability: immunity to morale, RR1 to hit (ranged and melee)
Warriors: RR1 armor saves
Zoans: RR1 psychic tests
Neuro: RR1 psychic tests + reroll failed psychic test (for all units in Synapse range, but max. 1/turn)
BL: RR1 to wound (GS only)
Tervigon: RR all hits (Termagants only) [yes I know, would make Devilgants verrrry strong. They are still made out of tissue paper, and the Tervigon isn't a great use of defensive buffs/adapatations, and generally weak]
Hive Tyrant: RR1 to wound
Swarmlord: RR1 to wound, reroll all failed hits (for all units in Synapse range, but max 2x/turn) - would be better than current Chapter Master + Lieutnant combo, so 100% not happening, lol
No plastic LoW is also a crime, irrespective of LoWs being good this edition or whatever. Shapeless giant things in the background have been part of Nids look&feel for ages, it's high time one of them actually manifested in plastic. A plastic Dule should have been the second plastic LoW from GW (after the Baneblade).
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Post by kwisatzhaderach on Jul 15, 2021 23:29:37 GMT
So I disagree with just about everything inforngraphy said. We don't need transports. We don't need snipers. We don't need a Lord of War. We don't need sergeants or lieutenants. (okay, that last one wasn't info's) What we need is out of the box thinking. Tyranids aren't an army that plays like other armies and our rules should reflect this. And that is the real issue here, the rules don't support how the army is supposed to play. This is a "new unit wishlist" thread and I posted a unit that I thought the Tyranids didn't have a role for. We may not need those things, but that's what this thread is for, a wishlist with roles that are technically missing in the army. Interesting, I feel like it giving an additional adaptation may be too good and maxing these out would become a fast priority. I would note however that I think the idea behind our codex is that Tyrants are supposed to be our captains and Primes and the other leader bugs are the lieutenants. Whether that is effective is definitely debatable, but I think that was the intent anyway. For 125 points, in testing I've found that maybe 1 or 2 is ideal. But maxing them out leaves too many points in buffs and not enough units. Regarding the lieutenants, I think you're right, but I'd also like to see a more generalist lieutenant that upgrades everyone and not just very specific units. |
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Post by Kilmor on Jul 16, 2021 16:32:59 GMT
I dont think we need dedicated transports. Back in the day we had a special rule that allowed us to add a d6 to our movement that made us fast. Then running(advancing) became part of the core rules and most of our units got fleet and were able to run and charge. Now only stealers have it, but we have increased move characteristics at least. Since we don't get dedicated transports we need increased movement; either army wide kraken advance, army wide advance and charge, or something else.
I dont think we need snipers but if we were able to nullify characters by other ways to keep us unique I think that would be cool. Lictors shutting down auras would be cool, even as a strat. (make death leaper use the strat for 0cp)
For an army that is based around large monsters, and having some of the first big creatures we have fallen very far. We have no plastic Lord of War, and even our bigger models aren't really that big anymore.
I'm interested in seeing what happens to our codex. Defensively, DA get wounding only on 4+, Necrons get 5+++, DG get reduced damage. Since they seem to not want to increase Toughness past 8, we're already hitting that cap. 3+ or 2+ only does so much and increasing wounds only helps to a certain extent. I wouldn't mind seeing a -1 to wound against our big units but that doesn't help our little ones too much. FNP on synapse is a good start but with how lethal the current new releases are being, that too wont do too much. I would also like to see army wide Dermic like degradation, to keep us fighting while injured.
I wouldn't mind seeing a carnifex sized Tyrant guard HQ, something at 8 wounds and tough that can charge forwards and deal some damage. Then let the Tyranid prime be focused more on buffs and supports. In additions past we used to give out reroll auras before they were ever a thing. 3" of a lictor or broodlord was rerolls to hit. Hive tyrants could buy an aura that gave reroll 1s to wound at 6". Now that auras and rerolls are a massive part of the game, we are very lacking.
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Post by purestrain on Jul 16, 2021 20:36:19 GMT
I dont think we need dedicated transports. Back in the day we had a special rule that allowed us to add a d6 to our movement that made us fast. Then running(advancing) became part of the core rules and most of our units got fleet and were able to run and charge. Now only stealers have it, but we have increased move characteristics at least. Since we don't get dedicated transports we need increased movement; either army wide kraken advance, army wide advance and charge, or something else. I dont think we need snipers but if we were able to nullify characters by other ways to keep us unique I think that would be cool. Lictors shutting down auras would be cool, even as a strat. (make death leaper use the strat for 0cp) For an army that is based around large monsters, and having some of the first big creatures we have fallen very far. We have no plastic Lord of War, and even our bigger models aren't really that big anymore. I'm interested in seeing what happens to our codex. Defensively, DA get wounding only on 4+, Necrons get 5+++, DG get reduced damage. Since they seem to not want to increase Toughness past 8, we're already hitting that cap. 3+ or 2+ only does so much and increasing wounds only helps to a certain extent. I wouldn't mind seeing a -1 to wound against our big units but that doesn't help our little ones too much. FNP on synapse is a good start but with how lethal the current new releases are being, that too wont do too much. I would also like to see army wide Dermic like degradation, to keep us fighting while injured. I wouldn't mind seeing a carnifex sized Tyrant guard HQ, something at 8 wounds and tough that can charge forwards and deal some damage. Then let the Tyranid prime be focused more on buffs and supports. In additions past we used to give out reroll auras before they were ever a thing. 3" of a lictor or broodlord was rerolls to hit. Hive tyrants could buy an aura that gave reroll 1s to wound at 6". Now that auras and rerolls are a massive part of the game, we are very lacking. They are handing out "ignore wound rolls of 1-3 regardless of modifiers" all over the place, DA, FW Chapter, Snake Bites and their "Da Old Ways" rule. Thats whats needed, the lethality is too high to not be able to flat mitigate it away as nothing most of the time, until we get that we wont see any top tables any time soon |
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Post by mule on Jul 16, 2021 20:46:58 GMT
I dont think we need dedicated transports. Back in the day we had a special rule that allowed us to add a d6 to our movement that made us fast. Then running(advancing) became part of the core rules and most of our units got fleet and were able to run and charge. Now only stealers have it, but we have increased move characteristics at least. Since we don't get dedicated transports we need increased movement; either army wide kraken advance, army wide advance and charge, or something else. I dont think we need snipers but if we were able to nullify characters by other ways to keep us unique I think that would be cool. Lictors shutting down auras would be cool, even as a strat. (make death leaper use the strat for 0cp) For an army that is based around large monsters, and having some of the first big creatures we have fallen very far. We have no plastic Lord of War, and even our bigger models aren't really that big anymore. I'm interested in seeing what happens to our codex. Defensively, DA get wounding only on 4+, Necrons get 5+++, DG get reduced damage. Since they seem to not want to increase Toughness past 8, we're already hitting that cap. 3+ or 2+ only does so much and increasing wounds only helps to a certain extent. I wouldn't mind seeing a -1 to wound against our big units but that doesn't help our little ones too much. FNP on synapse is a good start but with how lethal the current new releases are being, that too wont do too much. I would also like to see army wide Dermic like degradation, to keep us fighting while injured. I wouldn't mind seeing a carnifex sized Tyrant guard HQ, something at 8 wounds and tough that can charge forwards and deal some damage. Then let the Tyranid prime be focused more on buffs and supports. In additions past we used to give out reroll auras before they were ever a thing. 3" of a lictor or broodlord was rerolls to hit. Hive tyrants could buy an aura that gave reroll 1s to wound at 6". Now that auras and rerolls are a massive part of the game, we are very lacking. They are handing out "ignore wound rolls of 1-3 regardless of modifiers" all over the place, DA, FW Chapter, Snake Bites and their "Da Old Ways" rule. Thats whats needed, the lethality is too high to not be able to flat mitigate it away as nothing most of the time, until we get that we wont see any top tables any time soon The problem is that GW needs to just double everything, double wounds, double damage, double Strength & Toughness and then they have 2x the amount of numbers to play with on where a gun sits profile wise. Ignoring dicerolls is just absolutely horrible. Removing peoples ability to reroll is horrible, etc. You don't want the other person not feeling like their army isn't the coolest (please do not swear) in the world and they do that so often lol. I have 4 different armies now and there are a lot of instances where i put something down have a cool rule and someone is like, yeah but this thing just absolutely slays you and ruins your life. the profiles of a bolter compared to a las gun is very close mechanic wise and they just need to give themselves enough room to play around with them. They already have so many layers of mitigation first the person has to hit, then they have to wound, then you have to fail your save/invuln and then you also need to fail your FNP. There really isn't a reason to just add another defensive layer just use the numbers better. |
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Post by purestrain on Jul 16, 2021 21:34:03 GMT
They are handing out "ignore wound rolls of 1-3 regardless of modifiers" all over the place, DA, FW Chapter, Snake Bites and their "Da Old Ways" rule. Thats whats needed, the lethality is too high to not be able to flat mitigate it away as nothing most of the time, until we get that we wont see any top tables any time soon The problem is that GW needs to just double everything, double wounds, double damage, double Strength & Toughness and then they have 2x the amount of numbers to play with on where a gun sits profile wise. Ignoring dicerolls is just absolutely horrible. Removing peoples ability to reroll is horrible, etc. You don't want the other person not feeling like their army isn't the coolest (please do not swear) in the world and they do that so often lol. I have 4 different armies now and there are a lot of instances where i put something down have a cool rule and someone is like, yeah but this thing just absolutely slays you and ruins your life. the profiles of a bolter compared to a las gun is very close mechanic wise and they just need to give themselves enough room to play around with them. They already have so many layers of mitigation first the person has to hit, then they have to wound, then you have to fail your save/invuln and then you also need to fail your FNP. There really isn't a reason to just add another defensive layer just use the numbers better. I believe you are confusing mitigation with game-built mechanics, especially since ignoring dice rolls of 1-3 actually speeds up gameplay, because 50% of the dice have no usage within the mechanic at hand (wounding) Doubling the str, toughness and wounds would put every single unit in the game into a scale of "turn 6, every single anti tank gun into that one guy, still not dead? okay you're turn" sort of play, and thats boring af. not to mention the chart for wounding isnt affected by the shear numerical value of a result, so throwing str 20 attacks at a t3 guy or str 6 attacks at a t3 guy yield the same thing with less text. Bolters and lasguns are flex point weapon choice, cheap and okay versus most chaff, or not so cheap, but good at hitting chaff, basically str 3 vs str 4 as a platform (tis why I hate spinefists, they should work like flesh hooks and fire at the users str) Rerolls werent always in the game, or, at least not as voluminous as they are now. shut downs are becoming more common place because the best enhancements the game offers are typically either stratagems or aura backed baked in abilities. |
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Post by acehilator on Jul 16, 2021 21:34:06 GMT
Lethality in 9E is up again, not down. No matter how many layers you have to go through to actually deal damage. And seriously curbing the amount of dice rolling is one of the things 9E does right.
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Post by mule on Jul 16, 2021 21:51:40 GMT
The problem is that GW needs to just double everything, double wounds, double damage, double Strength & Toughness and then they have 2x the amount of numbers to play with on where a gun sits profile wise. Ignoring dicerolls is just absolutely horrible. Removing peoples ability to reroll is horrible, etc. You don't want the other person not feeling like their army isn't the coolest (please do not swear) in the world and they do that so often lol. I have 4 different armies now and there are a lot of instances where i put something down have a cool rule and someone is like, yeah but this thing just absolutely slays you and ruins your life. the profiles of a bolter compared to a las gun is very close mechanic wise and they just need to give themselves enough room to play around with them. They already have so many layers of mitigation first the person has to hit, then they have to wound, then you have to fail your save/invuln and then you also need to fail your FNP. There really isn't a reason to just add another defensive layer just use the numbers better. I believe you are confusing mitigation with game-built mechanics, especially since ignoring dice rolls of 1-3 actually speeds up gameplay, because 50% of the dice have no usage within the mechanic at hand (wounding) Doubling the str, toughness and wounds would put every single unit in the game into a scale of "turn 6, every single anti tank gun into that one guy, still not dead? okay you're turn" sort of play, and thats boring af. not to mention the chart for wounding isnt affected by the shear numerical value of a result, so throwing str 20 attacks at a t3 guy or str 6 attacks at a t3 guy yield the same thing with less text. Bolters and lasguns are flex point weapon choice, cheap and okay versus most chaff, or not so cheap, but good at hitting chaff, basically str 3 vs str 4 as a platform (tis why I hate spinefists, they should work like flesh hooks and fire at the users str) Rerolls werent always in the game, or, at least not as voluminous as they are now. shut downs are becoming more common place because the best enhancements the game offers are typically either stratagems or aura backed baked in abilities. Think you're misunderstanding me. This is one thing that they did correctly with marines, it didn't make sense that a marine had 1 wound as well as a termagant. Doubling the S & T along side wounds and damage means that they can tweak guns more it gives them a bigger depth of balance to work with. A las gun doing 1 damage and a bolter doing 1 damage if it makes it through is not good for balance. The more numbers they can play around with to a certain extent is better specifically for their ability to like adjust weapon profiles and data slate profiles to make things different than each other. Yes there are things that make the game really slow and yes I like that they're removing them. Dakka Dakka Dakka was really fun but it slows the game down unless you're playing on TTS. Ignoring wounds outright is just bad, sure it'll speed the game up cause you just stop rolling period but that is a damage mitigation mechanic and because something like that exists things that you are taking need to be MORE killy to ensure IF you get a roll on a 4-6 that it infact GOES through and does the job. Making things killy in an alphastrike game like 40k is inherently bad for the game, we both play with 2000 point armies and you go first which means you get to kill 300-500 points of my army, meaning my 1500-1700 points needs to deal as much damage or live through 25% more pressure because i have less units on the board to do the things i need them to do. If you are outright making it so 50% of my rolls do nothing, which essentially what the ignore 1-3 is, then when i roll 4-6 i need to ensure that i am doing the damage i need to and removing the amount i have to. It limits the scope of what units are good, and ultimately limits the viability of a large portion of models in the game. |
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Post by garg on Jul 17, 2021 11:15:09 GMT
I'm not really following the logic
Either the game is too killy in which case having a defensive ability (Transhuman equivalent) is good or the game is fine or needs to be more lethal. That they invalidate your offensive abilities is the nature of any defensive ability.
The prevalence of rerolls and +s to hit and wound is also a reason for the game being so killy.Turning off those abilities temporarily i can also help reduce lethality.
Still i do feel that gw keeps arbitrarily adding rule to counteract some other rule. Units die too quick, okay give out good armour saves. Not enough damage is being done, let's spread around ap-3 and give more factions increased ap through auras and other rules. Hmm stuff is dieing too quickly now let's spread around invulns. Big bad nasties and super heros aren't killy enough let's give them the ability to ignore invulns.
Of all things I'd like is points to double and increase the wound point at which obscuring no longer applies. The nice thing about the str / t as it is now is that it is relatively simple. I know with my devourer i wound standard infantry from most factions on 3s some on 4s and now two on 5s.
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Post by grubblenmash on Jul 17, 2021 16:29:16 GMT
Non-fw units need a buff so they can stay on the battlefield longer without eating so much cp. That or they need to be an unreal glass cannon that can chew through anything by adding higher ap/damage. It would be nice to see units that ignore invuln saves and such like the necrons nightbringer and I would love to see the Swarmlord get changed to 9 wounds or have a rule that gives a wound cap per phase similar to Gazghkull.
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