Anti-AdMech strategies: Query and Discussion

[kazetanade]

Hi Guys,

I've been out of competitive 40k for a good 5 months or more now - the last thing I did was a small 8 or 10 player RTT locally where I placed a miserable 1-1-1 with Necrons, and then a single practice game with double Dima where I got absolutely wrecked by invul bouncing Eldar armies. I've got no clue what's come out for Sisters and I'm not up to date with Ad Mech, both of which seem to have been really strong additions to the game. 

AdMech isnt a huge force locally, but I like to stay on top of what's hitting the tables elsewhere but the recent Goonhammer articles are flying by my head and I dont get what's happening in the AdM codex. I've recently read they're hitting top 4 in Aus and top placing in US as well, and would like to know if people in the Hive are getting experience with the army and what exactly are they putting out on the table?

Also a start to discussing how to sort of dissect the army - I hear it's durable, it's fast, it does damage, it shoots, it melees, it outscores, doesnt sound like it has any weaknesses. But we all know that kind of analysis is a big fallacy. 

[No One]

(I'll caveat this with this is so far just theorycrafting for the 'main' build I've seen discussed, and think I'd have the most issues with, and is basically my rambling on that build: I've yet to play the match up, and tbh I'm not exactly enthused with the idea)

kazetanade said:

But we all know that kind of analysis is a big fallacy.

Is it? But seriously, I think the only real 'weakness' is melee, because unlike marines most of the army sucks in melee, and most lists take limited melee units (I think 1-3 infils/rustalkers, usually 10 man but sometimes 5 for more utility vs damage). But they've got access to a no downsides fall back and shoot every turn, a downside (-1 and 9") fall back and shoot every turn, and a once per game veil to get out of situations where you can't fall back. All Char based, but it's not like we've got good snipers outside keler, and keler gets auspexed to death unless you want to blow 5 CP (plus CP buy in for taking GSC) to start killing Chars possibly too late to matter. Add on brutal overwatch, and most of the durability mechanisms working in melee (plus bonus extra -1 S for vanguard), and it's not looking great. High output shooting with good AP and/or D2/MWs seems solid at killing skittles if they don't have buffs/you can get around the buffs, so exos seem good there. But then you're struggling to do enough before you die, because exo just explodes to vanguard/chickens, and there's no real high value targets (outside chickens basically, but with 48" and 10"/16" movement, I'm not seeing how you get to shoot them).

But melee requires getting there without being shot to pieces, which...is the problem. Vanguard are devilgants with better output, range (well, Lucius) and save base, with AP access, and a 1 CP output strat that's basically the same or better than double tap, while basically ignoring any durability buffs outside good armour saves. Suck into vehicles, but that's not something we can exploit. Rangers don't have the same stupid damage output, but offer strong long range shooting that can still spike med/short range. Ironstriders have 2 shot better lascannons (and can advance and shoot auto-6" with no penalty with strat), with lots of rr access to pretty effectively murder whatever hard target they can see: which, see 10"/16" move. Then bombers for MW access/slows and a pile of S4 shots, while being very resistant to our shooting (and strat for 4+++ vs MW, just because).

Infils/rustalkers I can't comment on too much, other than their output seems solid, and infils especially are very good pressure pieces (T1 charge if going 1st, with a possible pile of durability buffs and a no-rr aura?).

Basically only thing I can really think of is med size stealer spam (because the output's could be there), which is going to be very terrain reliant, has no answer to planes (which are quite common), and might just die too fast post charge (i.e. you do a decent amount of damage, but you're squishy and the guns are very good anti-stealer firepower, which again fall back and shoot). Exo's got the firepower, but I'm not seeing any way it doesn't die after the first volley, or even before with Lucius solar flare/DS. (This is also basically assuming that the infils can be dealt with relatively easily) Adding GSC helps a bit with planes/infils, but it's not a cheap buy in and I don't feel the 'tech' brings enough: feels like you're falling behind on raw efficiency when you're already behind on that, even without the tech you're trying to counter. i.e. Again, I don't think the Character reliance is something that can be leveraged off easily without having a decent answer in the first place, especially if your answer requires a lot of investment and comes down T2+. (The idea of summoning in a keler T1 is interesting though, now that I think of it: gets around infoslave, and you don't need anything special to kill a marshal. Issue would be getting screened because you can't LiW though, and just bounces off a manipulus).

[kazetanade]

Sounds rather depressing. I'm just going to take a guess that Double Dima is going the way of the dodo when these 80 Vanguard builds start popping up.

Are these things that double tapping devilgants are able to kill off and weather in return? In general if we're not relying on Fight Twice and Pathogenic Slime, Nids doesnt burn that much cp on a turn by turn. So the tech to stop turn 1 charges could be good, or just play Kraken stuff and take it then fall back and recharge on objectives, and use the big unit as a wrap bubble. They're not obsec are they?

What's the defensive profiles or buffs we're looking at? I know something about ignore ap-1 and ap-2, and there's an invul somewhere, but in what way? Is it army wide or just that 1 buffed unit ala better crons?


Exo's got a low rate of fire - 12 shots only (which is not low but all I hear about are 20 man horde units, so that's when 12 is low) - why is its 2D a good thing and is it actually effective enough to secure kills on units?

[Hive Bahamut]

Skitarii Vanguard Radium Carbines are 18" Assault 3 S3 Each time an attack is made with this weapon against an enemy unit (excluding VEHICLE units), a hit roll of 6 automatically wounds the target.

ENRICHED ROUNDS1CP

Adeptus Mechanicus – Wargear Stratagem

Sanctified with the Tri-fold Litany, each of these slugs has spent a decade in the oldest and most irradiated forge temple to certify their lethality.

Use this Stratagem in your Shooting phase, when an ADEPTUS MECHANICUS unit from your army is selected to shoot. Until the end of the phase, each time a model in that unit makes an attack with a radium weapon against an enemy unit (excluding VEHICLE units), an unmodified hit roll of 4+ automatically wounds the target.

Now this is where the issue comes in: that 160 point unit can drop just about anything. To kill them?

Skitarii start at 4+, Shroudpsalm for 3+, Bulwark Imperative for 2+ or can be AGRIPINAA for +1 against D1. They start with 6++ and elite versions are 5++.

Then you can add on more buffs like Transhuman etc from Traits and a Cpt/Lt combo for less than 60 IIRC.

This codex is hilariously powerful.

[No One]

kazetanade said:

Are these things that double tapping devilgants are able to kill off and weather in return?

Unbuffed, yes and no respectively. They're 'only' T3 3+ vs devilgants base. But have a WLT for cover (can be slapped on anything), and doctrina as well (the new +1 sv for one battle round).

As above, vanguard are rocking 60 shots, which does 30+ wounds guaranteed with strat, before buffs. Rangers go to rapid 2 with strat, so can also easily wipe the squad as well. Even no buffs, either are basically combat killing. For buffs, marshal has rr 1s to hit (and relic for rr 1s to wound), manipulus for +6" range and AP-1 to a unit. And doctrina for once per game shooting phase of +1 BS.

What's the defensive profiles or buffs we're looking at? I know something about ignore ap-1 and ap-2, and there's an invul somewhere, but in what way? Is it army wide or just that 1 buffed unit ala better crons?

T3 4+/6++ for 8 ppm base. Lucius WLT for transhuman, Holy Order for ignore -1/-2, Lucius for +1 sv vs D1, once per game +1 sv for the battle round, skittles WLT (so can go on sarge, and has essentially 'cross table range) for light cover and +1 sv if in terrain.

Also shroupdsalm for light cover if Mars, but it loses out on a lot of skittles buffs. Lucius also gets 1 CP DS, veil relic, and +3" range.

Most (all?) of this also works on chickens (though are often just Mars for the rrs) and planes, and a lot of it also works on kastellans.

Exo's got a low rate of fire - 12 shots only (which is not low but all I hear about are 20 man horde units, so that's when 12 is low) - why is its 2D a good thing and is it actually effective enough to secure kills on units?

Lucius (the 'go to' for skittles hordes) is +1 sv vs D1. So it means you still push them to invul even with doctrina: they need an extra way of boosting save (which they have, mind).

[kazetanade]

If I'm not reading you wrongly -

1. They have a large number of units applicable for single target buffs, and all their single target buffs are tied to somewhat squishy characters.

2. Rangers and Vanguard have very good anti-infantry damage, Vanguards getting good results vs nonvehicles

3. Lucius has a +1 to save vs 1D weapons all the time +1 to save single target, and a once per game +1 to save whole army. There is also a single target Transhuman.

4. Chicken walkers are good with better lascannons and immense movement.

5. The Flier has a MW bombing run, which I assume also has a turn off aura, and resistance against MWs.

So in my head, it looks like traditional GS Sling actually works well, with the caveat that risks are high as a screw up will annihilate any unit. 20 man Genestealers wip 20 man Vanguards /Rangers through their saves. They capture chickens well for hostage situations. Dogs drop to SL who can move about once the chickens and Vanguards are tagged, and Flyrant settles Fliers and chickens as it cross to the other side.

Does it look like that might work?

5.

[No One]

kazetanade said:

and all their single target buffs are tied to somewhat squishy characters.

Marshal is squishy, but manipulus (extra range/AP and the Holy Order buffs, sometimes with a WLT as well) is T4 2+/5++ with 5 wounds.

3. Lucius has a +1 to save vs 1D weapons all the time +1 to save single target, and a once per game +1 to save whole army.

This was nerfed slightly, in that the +1 sv to single target doesn't stack with Lucius (except when it does i.e. entirely on terrain).

Does it look like that might work?

Maybe: it's probably our best shot, but that doesn't mean it's good. You still need to dodge:
- Planes wreck them, 5 MWs and 16 S4 shots, so one plane kills ~half a squad
- Veil to get in and kill things going 1st
- Veil and fall back and shoot abilities going 2nd (though this is more viable now that chickens lost Core, since they can't be bounced out of combat anymore. But there's always desperate break out)
- Overwatch hurts
- Infiltrators make getting to where you actually want to be awkward
- If you don't get the hostage, it's 260 pts to mostly kill a 160 pt unit. Worse if they have doctrina and are either vanguards for -1 S, ignore -1/-2, or transhuman: at that point you kill a bit over half the unit (it's ~9-11 with only rending claws, but acid maw would help a lot).

Of course, if you kill the infils and get a lasting hostage on something else, I think you win. But...getting there is going to be difficult.

[kazetanade]

No One what's the deal with the overwatch? Why does it hurt?

Also what are these infiltrators? And how big I'd the unit that it can block you?

[No One]

kazetanade said:

No One what's the deal with the overwatch? Why does it hurt?

Just a pile of dice and vanguards auto wound: so if you don't block overwatch, just take 10 wounds before saves, more if rr 1s from exemplar. Which is a decent chunk of the squad, and then you're fighting into -1 S/T. Rangers are pretty OK though.

Also what are these infiltrators? And how big I'd the unit that it can block you?

5-10 man squads with infiltrate: generally at least 10 total in a list, some lists run 20. 40 mm base, so 10 man squad should be able to stretch max coherency and block...*quick maths* ~28" across. Decent in combat: struggle without stacking combat buffs into harder targets, but will decimate lighter stuff, esp with strats.

And more durable than rangers outside multi-damage, because 5++ and no rrs within 12". Not insurmountable, since you can shoot them out and then HC, and mightn't always be looking to fully move block over just threatening charges to clear chaff/scoring. But...yeah. Fun.

(Also planes still have the halve move/Adv/charge strat, because why).

[kazetanade]

What about teching into GSC?

A rusted Claw demo charge squad basically kills the Fliers, as will a Flyrant -

GSC is actually full of 2D everywhere. Abbys, Acos, Goliaths; all 2D. Has access to shut down overwatch.

Cutters maybe not as useful into AdMech, but maybe the Raiders or Chickens, if they're not vehicles.

[No One]

kazetanade said:

What about teching into GSC?

Something I've thought about, more for blips to block bombing runs and infiltrators, but also for keler to kill marshals (of course, I don't know if we'd have the raw oomph to get there against even unbuffed AdMech, esp since it happens T2 and costs 2+3 CP 'cos infoslave, but there might be something there, and T1 summon to get around that is also interesting, if less reliable with no LiW). But it's just expensive to tech in, both pts and CP. I could see it being worth if you can bring in more cult stuff usefully, but that's basically just melee, and now you're getting into 'how do you hide things to not die' (something just to deal with the inevitable infils and just relying on blips to live??) Dunno.

A rusted Claw demo charge squad basically kills the Fliers, as will a Flyrant -

Depends if they have chaff launchers: -1 D and strat access for additional -1 to hit in shooting, so the demo output gets cut massively. Flyrant's fairly reliable, as long as you can do a wound to get around the -1 D (i.e. at 9 wounds, 3 wounds kills for 3D or 4D). If you can't, it's basically a 50/50. Which isn't good for 200 pts and adapt, vs at most 150 pts.

Cutters maybe not as useful into AdMech, but maybe the Raiders or Chickens, if they're not vehicles.

Chickens are vehicles, and raiders are less common and also still have tactica obliqua.

[kazetanade]

Back to the drawing board I guess.

[zimko]

When I played against the new Ad-Mech, a Dima with accelerated digestion was a nightmare for them to deal with once I killed the fliers. Their infantry are a great source for healing 3 to 6 wounds per battle round. And feel-no-pain of course helps a lot against the mortals from vanguard.

[kazetanade]

How do you deal with 4+ auto wound though? And that charge with 6A barely impacts the unit from looks of it.

8

[zimko]

Aug 24, 2021 16:09:03 GMT kazetanade said:

How do you deal with 4+ auto wound though? And that charge with 6A barely impacts the unit from looks of it.

8

If you're talking about vanguards then you try to ignore them until you can shoot em up or tie em up. Their range isn't very long. Force them to move out of cover to get good shots at you.

In my game, he had 2 large units of vanguard hiding inside ruins. I had 2 large unit of devgants hiding in similar ruins. Neither could come out without getting killed by the other. Eventually I forced a trade. He commited to killing 1 devgant squad. My other devgant squad came out to kill that vanguard. The 2nd vanguard squad was engaged by a dima after the dima charged something nearby to them.

I guess the main trick is to make sure you don't waste devgants on something until you can get them to at least a 3+ save. On his first 2 turns, he used a canicle? that gave him +1 saves. He also had cover. My devgants would have been wasted shooting into that. So I just waited until all his buffs were gone. Kept the devgants back behind obscuring and relying on Kraken's double advance stratagem to give me the reach I need once the vanguard are vulnerable.