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Post by mule on Jul 2, 2021 3:30:38 GMT
Oh I love genestealers I just don't think they fit the tyranid narrative anymore and I think all the genestealer lore fits better as cult primary. Only because they made a decision to fill out the GSC back story. I could more readily see them reabsorb the GSC back into the Tyranid codex: there is precedent for that: Black Templars into the SM codex and Scions into the Astra Militarum codex. That's a whole other problem. Genestealers are kind of superfluous in the GSC codex because acolytes do it better for cheaper. And metamorphs, don't get me started on metamorphs. I spent a fortune in metamorphs buying the way overpriced boxes and buying claws only to have them made obsolete. It really soured me on GSC. I spent nearly $400 on metamorphs alone only to have them deep sixed in a few months. Well yeah thats because the GSC is much more interesting on a narrative level to be able to tell the tyranid story. You can have a human esque cultist tell us what a patriarch knows about the hivemind/hive fleets. Where as the Tyranids are just an unending force of hunger there is not really much of a narrative there. Sure, maybe i'm just ignorant but with the new release of all the gsc models I don't really see that happening. It'd make our codex literally 2x as big and I think they're different enough lore wise to justify having their own codex's. That said GSC is definitely lacking, so i'd probably be okay with them just merging the two codex's together or having GSC as a supplement book of Tyranids going forwards. Prices and etc can change, roles can chage. There is no reason an acolyte has to be S4 or a genestealer has to be S4 and both of them using rending claws as their primary focus for attacks. I think a lot of this lies in the way the game works I suppose like even if we made genestalers S5 and meant for killing primaris they'd also just kill chaff a lot better too cause you'd just take them as TH and now they're wounding/killing T3 thinks on 2's so there isn't really a way to make acolytes anti horde & anti tank whilst making genestealers anti MEQ because the rule overlap and how you get there is ultimately the same. Metamorphs definitely feel pretty worthless in the codex, I'd probably just merge them with acoltyes and give acolytes more weapon options talons/some sort of extra rule for more genestealery heads. Even in the current codex they don't really make a lot of sense, where as if we could give acolytes a talon instead of rending claws im sure we might eventually use them more options is better. I mean i think i have some pretty radical ideas on where the tyranid codex should go not just with this but like big creatures just costing like 2/3 what their current points are and also just having high T lots of wounds to make up for the fact that we dont have invulns and stuff. |
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Post by kazetanade on Jul 5, 2021 8:59:20 GMT
Genestealers and Acolytes do it pretty different- the main issue is price. An Acolyte is 50% of the price for like 70% of the output and 60% of the durability. All it means is that PGS are overpriced. The fact that Acos get Creeds and bigger weapons too in addition to their price competitiveness is just icing on the cake.
Acolytes are the only source of heavy weapons in the GSC codex and that is their niche - the ability to carry heavy armaments to smash the enemy armor.
Genestealers function as your generic blender just fine, even if they could be improved to be lore relatable. But their main issue is price, both relative to within and without codex.
Metamorphs... this is just sad. In 7th Ed Metamorphs were great because their extra arms didn't give extra weapons, but buffs to their main weapons. When they transitioned into individual weapons, Metamorphs lost most semblance of a role.
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Post by purestrain on Jul 5, 2021 16:16:41 GMT
Genestealers and Acolytes do it pretty different- the main issue is price. An Acolyte is 50% of the price for like 70% of the output and 60% of the durability. All it means is that PGS are overpriced. The fact that Acos get Creeds and bigger weapons too in addition to their price competitiveness is just icing on the cake. Acolytes are the only source of heavy weapons in the GSC codex and that is their niche - the ability to carry heavy armaments to smash the enemy armor. Genestealers function as your generic blender just fine, even if they could be improved to be lore relatable. But their main issue is price, both relative to within and without codex. Metamorphs... this is just sad. In 7th Ed Metamorphs were great because their extra arms didn't give extra weapons, but buffs to their main weapons. When they transitioned into individual weapons, Metamorphs lost most semblance of a role. Double talon and 1cp is 6 attacks each and 7 on the sarge, 10 points for a banner to hit on 2+rerolling XD they can be fun |
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Post by mule on Jul 6, 2021 13:57:16 GMT
Genestealers and Acolytes do it pretty different- the main issue is price. An Acolyte is 50% of the price for like 70% of the output and 60% of the durability. All it means is that PGS are overpriced. The fact that Acos get Creeds and bigger weapons too in addition to their price competitiveness is just icing on the cake. Acolytes are the only source of heavy weapons in the GSC codex and that is their niche - the ability to carry heavy armaments to smash the enemy armor. Genestealers function as your generic blender just fine, even if they could be improved to be lore relatable. But their main issue is price, both relative to within and without codex. Metamorphs... this is just sad. In 7th Ed Metamorphs were great because their extra arms didn't give extra weapons, but buffs to their main weapons. When they transitioned into individual weapons, Metamorphs lost most semblance of a role. You can also just kit them fully out with only talons and they fulfill the same role. Saying something gets x more attacks at the same profile doesn't change the fact that GW could just infact give acolytes the same amount of attacks. They literally both fill the same role just one is better and more diverse than the other. Price cost shouldn't matter because they should both do different things and thus you'd be willing to pay the extra points for genestealers because they don't fill the same role. Yes Acolytes can get weapons that kill tanks and 2 wound models really easily, but thats what abberants are supposed to do in reality and genestealers are supposed to be anti MEQ. There are too many things that overlap with acolytes and that is the main issue with the current rules we have. Abberants should be anti tank & knights, Genestealers should be killing primaris marines and that really only leaves meta/aco's to be chaff clearers which for $10 a model doesn't feel great. I'm 100% okay with acolytes being where they're at I don't even mind mass spamming acolytes I prefer it actually it means that we don't really need to worry about a units position on the board cause all of them should relatively do the same thing. (3x10 units of cutters instead of 1 acolyte unit 1 abberant unit and 1 genetstealer unit) Really diverse models lets us get away with not having 100% perfect specific unit positioning because we can have any acolyte unit do the job we need it to do which allows us to focus on making sure that unit doesn't get shot off the board. That said it'd still be nice if we had access to other tools like genestealers who's sole purpose is to kill marines, and abberants who's sole purpose is to kill vehicles, knights and tanks. |
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Post by No One on Jul 6, 2021 14:47:48 GMT
Acos have obsec, this gives them a possible role that none of the other melee options can fill. Stealers have 8" and advance and charge, giving them more mobility. Then aberrants are tanks, and metas are pure damage.
The melee profile differences need to...just not have an obvious winner that overshadows or exacerbates the other differences.
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Post by infornography on Jul 6, 2021 15:05:52 GMT
This just doesn't seem accurate. Every fluff piece you read about genestealers they're hiding in shadows they're outflanking, they're on a ship attacking like the xenos from alien. They are not 2x40 man blobs thrown to the wolves of the frontline. Like I said before the role of what a genestealer does in the army fluffwise is already done by lictors. If they're being used as a genestealer they're already distanced from the hivemind to some extent. Ymgarl, First Curse. They're there before the tendrils of the tyranid forces get there and thats why I don't think they're actually all that tyraniddy. I think you're thinking in the current context of the books and not what the codex could be. Things like Lictors could fulfill the genestealer role entirely. They have the same tools rending claws and flesh hooks, they're the vanguard unit for tyranids and if you were able to take them in groups of 5-10 instead of units of 1 they could 100% replace genestealers in their entirerty when it comes to tyranid fluff. Fast unit, anti MEQ via Melee etc . You could still take genestealers in the army, but they'd be a new detachment with GSC rules since they're distanced from the tyranid lore. See, you are talking entirely about fluff divorced from the gameplay and I was referring to the gameplay divorced from fluff. Even still, Lictors are supposed to be even sneakier than Genestealers! They are supposed to be assassins and disruption units, not shock troops. Gameplaywise, Genestealers are shock troops. I agree that for the most part, lorewise, they are infiltration units, except during the very beginning of a cult assisted initial invasion when the genestealers DO act like shock troops, but then it makes sense that they would be in the GSC codex like you said. If you are looking for a perfect marriage of lore and gameplay, we would need to either make hormagaunts MUCH nastier or introduce a new unit, then make genestealers operate more like Ymgarls from 5th edition minus the adapting bonus thing and make them a bit stronger and more expensive and then make the ones in the GSC codex appropriately costed/buffed to be shock troops. Gameplaywise we can't afford to lose the genestealers in the Tyranid codex without SOMETHING filling their role. Warriors are and should be more rare and more powerful, gaunts SHOULD be cheap and expendable and only mildly threatening individually (they could use a slight buff to achieve that). There has to be something in between that is capable of killing things on the front line. Right now Genestealers competently fill that role even if the fluff isn't quite right. I do want Lictors to be more capable of being a threat, but I don't think the shock troop role is even close to right for them. I still want them to be at most a few per unit and focused more on infiltration, assassination, and disruption. Right now they are only really capable of the first of those. Poor lictors. |
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Post by mule on Jul 7, 2021 0:37:58 GMT
This just doesn't seem accurate. Every fluff piece you read about genestealers they're hiding in shadows they're outflanking, they're on a ship attacking like the xenos from alien. They are not 2x40 man blobs thrown to the wolves of the frontline. Like I said before the role of what a genestealer does in the army fluffwise is already done by lictors. If they're being used as a genestealer they're already distanced from the hivemind to some extent. Ymgarl, First Curse. They're there before the tendrils of the tyranid forces get there and thats why I don't think they're actually all that tyraniddy. I think you're thinking in the current context of the books and not what the codex could be. Things like Lictors could fulfill the genestealer role entirely. They have the same tools rending claws and flesh hooks, they're the vanguard unit for tyranids and if you were able to take them in groups of 5-10 instead of units of 1 they could 100% replace genestealers in their entirerty when it comes to tyranid fluff. Fast unit, anti MEQ via Melee etc . You could still take genestealers in the army, but they'd be a new detachment with GSC rules since they're distanced from the tyranid lore. See, you are talking entirely about fluff divorced from the gameplay and I was referring to the gameplay divorced from fluff. Even still, Lictors are supposed to be even sneakier than Genestealers! They are supposed to be assassins and disruption units, not shock troops. Gameplaywise, Genestealers are shock troops. I agree that for the most part, lorewise, they are infiltration units, except during the very beginning of a cult assisted initial invasion when the genestealers DO act like shock troops, but then it makes sense that they would be in the GSC codex like you said. If you are looking for a perfect marriage of lore and gameplay, we would need to either make hormagaunts MUCH nastier or introduce a new unit, then make genestealers operate more like Ymgarls from 5th edition minus the adapting bonus thing and make them a bit stronger and more expensive and then make the ones in the GSC codex appropriately costed/buffed to be shock troops. Gameplaywise we can't afford to lose the genestealers in the Tyranid codex without SOMETHING filling their role. Warriors are and should be more rare and more powerful, gaunts SHOULD be cheap and expendable and only mildly threatening individually (they could use a slight buff to achieve that). There has to be something in between that is capable of killing things on the front line. Right now Genestealers competently fill that role even if the fluff isn't quite right. I do want Lictors to be more capable of being a threat, but I don't think the shock troop role is even close to right for them. I still want them to be at most a few per unit and focused more on infiltration, assassination, and disruption. Right now they are only really capable of the first of those. Poor lictors. My perspective is, we have the units they just don't have the proper stats. Fluff DOES inform stats and roles somewhat. Making hormagants meaner is okay, or making warriors meaner is okay. Shock troop doesn't exist in tyranids really. Thats why I'm saying it should move to gsc and allow tyranids to take genestealer detachments for free. With tyranids they just arrive and the shock troops are lictors and genestealers by the time you're fighting tyranids you cant communicate with the outside world and the planet is blasted with myotic spores, and other drop pods containing gants, mawlocs and trygons. You're saying we need something to kill the frontline but thats exactly what hormagants are supposed to do they just never have and probably never will unfortunately. I don't care about the gameplay at the current moment because it doesn't reflect the fluff and GW has the power to change how our faction works entirely they have just choose not to. They could make hormagants 5 attacks ap -3 (not saying they should this is just an example that they could do these things) We're getting a new codex and that should mean they are looking to revamp the army. I know for a fact that, this wont happen but the potenital is there. |
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Post by kazetanade on Jul 7, 2021 6:23:28 GMT
mule purestrain that's a use for the Metamorphs, but not a role. That role is in fact the same as base Acolytes, but with less models and no ap and no obsec. I do agree that a 10 man hitting with 60A or 70A is somewhat hilarious though. If only it was more reliable getting stuck in - considering the amount of times we roll a 1 on PA, then less than 5 on the charge after rerolls... so much resources burnt for a harass unit. On a side note, aren't they pretty decent for slicing down AdM and Sisters? Since both armies rely on some crazy number of tanky troops? 60A all hit 40W 4+ 20 fails.. or a bit less. Doesn't seem so bad. Are metamoprhs still 90pts? Edit: my bad, 150pts for 50A. I think there's a strategem for +1A for total 60, and still trading downwards. Genestealers get 150pts for 40A with rending (might be net neutral since 2+ rr1s vs 3+ rending), but since Metamorphs don't drop an A for losing 1 model... maybe. 13 dead vanguards (assuming +1sv vs DMG1) GS - 40A, 26A, 13W, 4 no saves, 4.5 failed ^ so 13 v 9, OR 20 v 12; Metamorphs win out before considering potential Creed benefits and dead Genestealers. If the most useless unit in the GSC codex beats Genestealers... Well... I think Genestealers in GSC need a serious redo, but if not, they need to be a lot cheaper.
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Post by mule on Jul 7, 2021 16:34:33 GMT
mule purestrain that's a use for the Metamorphs, but not a role. That role is in fact the same as base Acolytes, but with less models and no ap and no obsec. I do agree that a 10 man hitting with 60A or 70A is somewhat hilarious though. If only it was more reliable getting stuck in - considering the amount of times we roll a 1 on PA, then less than 5 on the charge after rerolls... so much resources burnt for a harass unit. On a side note, aren't they pretty decent for slicing down AdM and Sisters? Since both armies rely on some crazy number of tanky troops? 60A all hit 40W 4+ 20 fails.. or a bit less. Doesn't seem so bad. Are metamoprhs still 90pts? Edit: my bad, 150pts for 50A. I think there's a strategem for +1A for total 60, and still trading downwards. Genestealers get 150pts for 40A with rending (might be net neutral since 2+ rr1s vs 3+ rending), but since Metamorphs don't drop an A for losing 1 model... maybe. 13 dead vanguards (assuming +1sv vs DMG1) GS - 40A, 26A, 13W, 4 no saves, 4.5 failed ^ so 13 v 9, OR 20 v 12; Metamorphs win out before considering potential Creed benefits and dead Genestealers. If the most useless unit in the GSC codex beats Genestealers... Well... I think Genestealers in GSC need a serious redo, but if not, they need to be a lot cheaper. Thats why i think acoltyes and metamorphs should be part of the same unit type. Just have metamorphs be upgrades you can do to acolytes. |
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Post by Hive Bahamut on Aug 10, 2021 18:34:19 GMT
So lets tackle this one again. There is already a differentiation in the codex types of Genestealers, what there isn't, is anything to represent this. First Curse is GSC as well as every 5th generation (not talked about.) I love the fluff restrictions, and let's face it, GSC was the template for everyone who now has limits as well. There is already an answer.. Primarisize.
Combining efforts what if there was a limit of 1 per Patriarch ala Company Command Squads and they were 5-10. Start by buffing them natively to S5 T5 and bringing the Rending up to 2D without any upgrade. Throw in +2"M and -1 to hit in combat to represent their stealthy nature. Now something a little different. Raw stats better than Hivefleet but less overall meat grindery.
Aberrants cover 2 similar roles but vastly different. Picks/Claws are a dumpster fire of varying AP so revamp them somehow. Only weapon in 40k I am aware of that is 10 points for no +S bonus. T5 6++ (these are mutated Genestealer Hybrids after all) This can be the "tanky melee"
Acolytes stay same: Cutters for multiW, drills for ++ and Saws-all.
Metamorphs gain infiltrate. Now the screen clearer can clear screens proper. Can even give the rule something like "First are the blessed ones"
Now we have 4 melee units with DIFFERENT and not necessarily overlapping roles:
Acolytes: Source of obsec and Mining Weapons
Purestrains: Source of speed and 2D Purestrain Rending for elites
Aberrants: Source of "tanky" melee for Vehicles or Elites
Metamorphs: Source of screen clearing infiltrators
Now you don't even really need to bother with the creed change. Trying to keep the smallest amount of change possible with complete functionality.
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Post by kazetanade on Aug 17, 2021 7:45:31 GMT
Infiltration should remain a part of GSC's deployment options cross codex - I like what they did for 8th Ed's deployment play lore-wise, but the end result was pretty frustrating. It shouldnt be metamorphs in general (Metamorphs do not look particularly stealthy or subtle honestly).
Acolytes should remain as an obsec general duty/catch-all; that's what throwaway troops are supposed to be. That we really agree on.
I also can get behind the whole "1 FC per Patty" restriction, it's no different from 1 Command Squad per Company Commander, and that worked out decently. FC Purestrains just need to really be differentiated - and I'd say S5 T5 goes a long way to differentiating them from standard Genestealers. Being in units of 5-10 also works well IMO, a 150pt blender that functions (remove the 10+ +1A concept, give it +1A flat, replace with WS2+ and rr wounds of 1) would go a long way to giving GSC some additional tools (just from the speed). Off the top of my head I think it doesnt change their situation too much - Acolytes still do the same job with rending claws, at a similar cost (the same is true even in your example above). The Purestrain really need a unique interaction to differentiate themselves, that isnt just a weapons profile, otherwise it's really just "slightly faster Acolytes" or "more expensive Acolytes". But PSGs should retain a very elite identity and be a threat and effective at small-medium unit sizes, and should have a considerable debilitation function that isnt just damage.
Metamorphs are designed to be disposable care packages. Throw them at the enemy and blender. Give them 7th ed weapon stacking effects again, and give them a charge buff like 3D6 drop lowest. These should be first to the fray, and should be limited (like, 2 per detachment or something).
Abbys. Abbys so good. Just wish they're cheaper. But no, really, the only thing that felt bad was unlucky swings and their price. Maintain their unique tankiness and give Picks a new damage type (+1S 2D, maintain the extra RC every A), good to go.
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Post by purestrain on Aug 17, 2021 13:07:05 GMT
Abbys. Abbys so good. Just wish they're cheaper. But no, really, the only thing that felt bad was unlucky swings and their price. Maintain their unique tankiness and give Picks a new damage type (+1S 2D, maintain the extra RC every A), good to go. I totally agree, I've always loved abberants and have nearly 30 of them, Most are pick/hammer and were absolute monsters for that brief period in time where (pre neckbeard breaking) getting a 6 that scored two hits, would count both as a 6 and allow the proc of Overthrow the oppressors for both hits, stacking an obscene amount of made attacks with the picks so the rending claws had a starting amount of attacks that went through the roof with the strat and abomb. They're just as lovable now and they're just our bros that like the gym, why can't they get love too? |
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Post by supertriqui on Aug 30, 2021 10:58:59 GMT
Hi everybody. First post here!
I wanted to add a few thoughts.
First, some of the suggestions often seen about PSG revolve around the idea of giving them Hive Fleet traits. This will never happen. It would imply that to play GSC, you NEED to buy Tyranids Codex. Either that, or print the Traits in GSC, months before Nids get it. Not every GSC player is also a Nids player. Same goes with BroodBrothers and IG traits, by the way.
Second,about the role of PGS. I think the solution is moving them to Fast Attack, and let them deploy out of your zone, as Mandrake, Infiltrators, etc do. Either that or a pre turn move, like Dominions or Serberys do. That would give them a different role.
For First Curse, I would give them beefier combat rules, and Elite slot. A smaller unit, of 5, maybe 10, but more attacks, damage, reroll wounds like Patty, or any combination of those. Just make them beefier.
Metamorphs current only role is to fight on death with whips. It is the only thing they can do, that acolytes can't do better. That let them charge Wyches, Incubi, Repentia, and similar units, and still blend them even if counterattacked or made Fight Last.
About the topic, GS need to be a Tyranids unit. I have no doubts about that. But PGS and GS need more differentiation.
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Post by infornography on Aug 30, 2021 13:32:03 GMT
Giving Genestealers Hive traits could be done simply by reprinting the CURRENT hive fleet traits in the GSC book, then if you want the new Hive Fleet traits after the Tyranid codex drop, they would expect you to buy that book too. Since when has GW been afraid to ... heavily encourage you buying more books?
Though they could also FAQ it, especially since the app would have the newest versions no matter what those versions are.
I really don't see that as an obstacle at all..
Even without reprinting hive fleet traits, you could have PSG Hive Fleet traits unique from both the cult traits and the regular Tyranid Hive fleet traits since it would ONLY apply to PSGs and Pattys. Things like rerolling 1's when shooting wouldn't do a Genestealer any good.
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Post by supertriqui on Aug 30, 2021 17:21:46 GMT
They don't have any problem making you buy new books for your faction, with Codex supplements like Blood Angels, or cross faction books like Psychic Awakening or Book of Rust, but they never ask you to buy a book from a different faction to play yours. You don't have to buy Chaos Space Marines to get the rules for Thousand Sons units that are cross referenced there, as an example. Same goes with GSC, for example, with Astra Militarum units.
Expecting GSC players to buy 3 full books to play the whole faction, 2 of which are needed just for tiny bits of it, is unrealistic even for GW. About your suggestion that it could be updated in the app, or in a FAQ... sure. Like 2 wound Rubrics and Plague Marines could be for Chaos Space Marines. Yet here we are. I'm not saying it is impossible to happen without breaking the laws of Physics. I'm saying it will not happen, because GW won't do it.
Now, a different set of rules for GS, just like Drukhari has different rules for Coven, Kabals and Cults... yes, that may happen. Hive Fleet traits and Astra Militarum Regiments traits, I think that is a big no from GW, given all their recent and past track record. Expecting those is a paved road to disappointment.
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