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Post by mule on Jun 27, 2021 16:13:52 GMT
This is probably a hot take, but i think the primary reason they made it so genestealers and patriarchs didn't get gsc cult creed is that they didnt want our genestealers to unbalance tyranid genestealers. Hence why they seperated the two and didn't change anything but points.
And I think this is going to be a reoccuring theme until they fully transistion broodlords and genestealers into being gsc only.
What this would do is force them to give other nid hq's some extra love because you couldnt just fill hq slots with broodlords as well as allow gsc to focus on the primary aspect of gsc which is well... Genestealers.
They'd have to figure out a way to allow genestealers to be used along a hive fleet aswell but if theyre sticking to detatchments and keywords i dont see why they couldnt make a tyranid specific stratagem to allow a detachment of key word genestealers to tag along and adopt the tyranids hive fleet rules.
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Post by Hive Bahamut on Jun 27, 2021 18:52:49 GMT
I have been wanting to have this discussion with someone for a while, thank you mule for stepping up. First off to address this I will go down 2 seperate rabbit holes. 1 is what I think and the 2nd is from a business standpoint. Our discussion will mostly be around 1 as people think GW hates money. In the first incarnation of GSC they had the Purestrains as the primary punch. They had no rules for paint and Purestrains ran the codex. This window was small and unless you rolled a 5 or 6 on the ambush table you were useless. Big gambit for big payoff or not. Once the index of 8th rolled around this was dead. No longer would Purestrains be spammed and The First Curse was implemented as a stratagem shortly after. Now that people were getting rules for paint it was a surefire thing they would be good codex time. No rules for paint.. Only Warlord in 40k and codex named unit without their rules in all of 40k. Tyranids had a plethora of stratagems for Hivestrains but GSC had not a single interaction with their iconic unit except for a Stratagem that was a 1:3 chance of a downgrade (4+ but lose advance+charge) Now before we ask why, we need to look into lore, for at least some inspiration/logic etc. In the lore (which I tried my best to compile in the Grim Dark Arc thread) there is an entirely different reason to keep them seperate, but could also be given traits like merc units from other books. The reason is because the Patriarch and Broodlord are two impossibly different entities while somehow being the exact same. Fight: Broodlord Flight: Patriarch While initially I argued the Patriarch should just have Hive Fleet traits it is unlike anything the Hive Fleet can make, feeding off the gestalt psychic telepathy inherent to its brood. This psychic energy is so excessive that often Familiars are formed. Broodlords can't do this. They are cookie cutter mass production variants. Now an arguememt could be made that the GENESTEALER keyword could share certain traits but I would love to see the Ymgarls (leech host not mutation,) or even a different variant return. I suspect something in the works with every box Nid related lately to have them in it to get rid of old stock. Nid Hq being bad is that codex's issue. GSC has an entire book of worthless. Adding more fragile melee units isn't working. I think there is a plan for most codices to have an internal 3 tier ally matrix. Drukhari, Necrons, GSC, Admech, Militarum Sororitas and others seem to doing this already, and it would be a way to flush out faction rules. As it stands GSC only has 3 units in the entire codex that get any paint rules: Acolytes, Neophytes (bikes too) and Aberrants. That is a paltry amount to work with. Keep First Curse, but change what it does. Keep the 0-1 cap and allow it to bring a Hive Fleet Trait for 1 unit. Voila. I don't believe they intend to remove Genestealers anymore than Brood Bros, they just need to not be super lazy with rules and make the army not a hot dumpster fire floating down a flooded street. Now on the financial side it makes perfect sense. Version 1: Sell Genestealers and HQ's, Version 2: Sell Aberrants and Bikes, Version 3: Sell Ridgerunners and Trucks. All the time: Acolytes because they are in top 3 most expensive troops in 40k for ratio. $45 for 40 points (Canada) |
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Post by mule on Jun 27, 2021 19:55:51 GMT
The reason is because the Patriarch and Broodlord are two impossibly different entities while somehow being the exact same. Fight: Broodlord Flight: Patriarch This is exactly why I stated that you should be able to take genestealers with some hivefleet rules in their own detatchment. IE you need a full <GENESTEALER> keyword detatchment to take them as a tyranid ally, maybe for 9e and then 10e just fully transition the broodlord & genestealer lore into GSC I think patriarchs and broodlords are similar in strength and toughness they're essentially the same thing but how they operate is different. I don't think I fully agree with fight vs flight though. Specifically because by the time genestealer cult is READY to fight they've already figured that they're in a good position to deal with everything that they've accounted for. Thus I don't think the patriarch flee's when the planet is ready to be taken over. Additionally if a cult is found out, a patriarch would 100% know that there is no running and that it must fight now before things get worse like exterminatus or xyz space marine detatchment is deployed. Lore wise im 50/50. I don't think the broodlord & genestealer lore actually fit nids anymore I don't thin Nids need them, not to mention they don't fit the tyranid aesthetic anymore they fit the old 2e aesthetic of nids and the 3e/4e is completely divergent it's just that GW didn't make GSC until quite a bit later and now that they're here I think Genestealers and Broodlords need to transition their lore and purpose to more infiltraty & fighty for GSC, alone without the hivemind. All in all, I think the fluff for broodlords and genestealers precides what patriarchs and gsc is but the final end point for me is to push the genestealer lore into the gsc realm of things and make lictors pick up the genestealer mantle for nids. I still believe GSC is the most fluffy codex out there, and not taking genestealers in a genestealer cult army just feels off. Like REALLY off. Splitting the two up will always favour one side over the other, and with the GSC you're more or less FORCED to take a patriarch as it's really our only viable good all around HQ who enables a lot of tools and the tools we have are focus'd around having one. In addition moving genestealers into one codex instead of two would allow them to fulfill a different role. IE Genestealers could have a 4++ and be 2 wounds in a GSC codex because you can balance around 1 codex' set of rules rather than 2 codex' set of rules. A 4++ 2 wound genestealer in a nid army would overwrite the whole purpose of the nid army. We seen this in 8e when people were taking 40 genestealers with swarmy and doing turn 1 charges, and at that time you rarely seen hormagants and if you did it was just 1 unit. This doesn't really feel like a tyranid army fluff wise and I'd love for them to focus the rules more around mass bodies, endless hordes, and a bunch of big creatures that get blasted to hell and back. I said the Nid HQ being bad part specifically so that GW has to emphasize more focus on the nids HQ without NEEDING broodlords and patriarchs to have the same stat line. If they HAVE to have the same stat line because they're essentially the same creature then GW has to balance them around being good for one of the two codex. And we seen this with genestealer point changes in two different books regardless of having the same stats but different tools. GW was scared to allow you to charge with genestealers turn 1 with perfect ambush as cult but wasn't scared to allow you to turn 1 charge with nids with swarmlord & kraken. Makes 0 sense specifically beacuse tyranids had better fighty tools with fight again, extra consolidate etc. Hell if they wanted to keep the same narrative that genestealers and patriarchs are still linked the the hive fleet in some capacity then fair. Then merge the two codex's and allow us to take a hive fleet as genestealers & patriarch whilst also allowing them to do the genestealer cult stratagems & spells. As far as the money thing goes. I don't think GW actually nerfs/buffs things for money. Doing so would assume they know what is going to be competitive at any given point and that is just pretty absurd judgement call imo. As far as aco's being expensive cost wise yeah i'm aware at the end of 8e I dropped $1500 cad so i could run a mass TH acolyte army for fun.  I think this is going to be a reoccuring theme. I don't think the Boyz models are going to be cheap either, and the new guard models that they have are like $6 cad a model iirc. Still not as expensive as an acolyte but you can take 1.5 each so they're like 9$ point wise. |
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Post by kazetanade on Jun 27, 2021 21:09:05 GMT
I 100% completely DO NOT AGREE with Hive Traits on Purestrains. The two have NOTHING to do with one another and it boggles the mind why they should in the first place.
What might make more sense IMO is to have the PGS be an elite Blender of a small unit (5 to 10 only), can only take 1 per Patriarch, give them a 4++, and revamp their First Curse buff to have no downsides and decent buffs, maintain no Cult Creed.
The First Curse are suppose to be the brood of the Patriarch, consisting of the others of its original group. There is not suppose to be a large number of them, and they SHOULD be greater than normal GS, and they SHOULDNT be affected by Cult Creeds, as they do not adhere or subscribe to any of these creeds or beliefs.
As above, they'll work like Command Squads - and can hence sport some interesting rules to make them stand out lore wise. But as a minimum, being S5 4A base would go far in distinguishing them from normal GS (although the latter only by virtue of GS having too few A in the first place).
PGS definitely should have some kind of rules that reflect their "parasitical" nature more regardless though. Taking over enemy troops via ovipositor + hypnotic eyes sounds like a scary good idea that's underused.
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Post by mule on Jun 27, 2021 21:33:02 GMT
I 100% completely DO NOT AGREE with Hive Traits on Purestrains. The two have NOTHING to do with one another and it boggles the mind why they should in the first place. What might make more sense IMO is to have the PGS be an elite Blender of a small unit (5 to 10 only), can only take 1 per Patriarch, give them a 4++, and revamp their First Curse buff to have no downsides and decent buffs, maintain no Cult Creed. The First Curse are suppose to be the brood of the Patriarch, consisting of the others of its original group. There is not suppose to be a large number of them, and they SHOULD be greater than normal GS, and they SHOULDNT be affected by Cult Creeds, as they do not adhere or subscribe to any of these creeds or beliefs. As above, they'll work like Command Squads - and can hence sport some interesting rules to make them stand out lore wise. But as a minimum, being S5 4A base would go far in distinguishing them from normal GS (although the latter only by virtue of GS having too few A in the first place). PGS definitely should have some kind of rules that reflect their "parasitical" nature more regardless though. Taking over enemy troops via ovipositor + hypnotic eyes sounds like a scary good idea that's underused. So firstly i'd just like to add that every lil fluffy thing that is in a codex straight up nerfs the units in the codex. IE limit our characters = less viable lists = less competitive solutions. Making it so genestealers don't benefit from your army's buffs = weaker option than exact same unit that does benefit from the army's buffs (tyranids). So with that said, I'd like to see things not be excluded from your army's buffs, and if they are, they should gain some sort really good trade off. Lore wise: Everything i've read about genestealers indicate that they're the infiltrating first strike vanguard units of tyranids. This is ALSO accurate in the context of GSC hitting worlds first even without tyranids in some cases. You can 100% have purestrain genestealers following a cult creed, they are just the end cycle of the genestealer cult where they're making more genestealers to go infiltrate other planets and become their own patriarchs. Making them stand out from normal genestealers is sort of the issue because it seems like GW is attempting to keep them the same unit, just like how a Ultramarine Primaris Space Marine is the same statline as a Whitescars Primaris Space Marine because they're the same model. I don't think this will change in GW's mind. So to combat this I think the best route is just to put genestealers as a Cult only unit. If you want access to them as a tyranid player you'd have to use a stratagem or something along those lines to take a special detachment of them and they'd get their own little subsect of tyranid only rules. Even though imo this doesn't make sense because genestealers are more culty than they are niddy, and i think lictors could 100% fulfil the role genestealers have in the tyranid army. Infiltraty Quick Anti infantry mass-attack units. |
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Post by wound on Jun 28, 2021 17:12:13 GMT
I 100% completely DO NOT AGREE with Hive Traits on Purestrains. The two have NOTHING to do with one another and it boggles the mind why they should in the first place. What might make more sense IMO is to have the PGS be an elite Blender of a small unit (5 to 10 only), can only take 1 per Patriarch, give them a 4++, and revamp their First Curse buff to have no downsides and decent buffs, maintain no Cult Creed. The First Curse are suppose to be the brood of the Patriarch, consisting of the others of its original group. There is not suppose to be a large number of them, and they SHOULD be greater than normal GS, and they SHOULDNT be affected by Cult Creeds, as they do not adhere or subscribe to any of these creeds or beliefs. As above, they'll work like Command Squads - and can hence sport some interesting rules to make them stand out lore wise. But as a minimum, being S5 4A base would go far in distinguishing them from normal GS (although the latter only by virtue of GS having too few A in the first place). PGS definitely should have some kind of rules that reflect their "parasitical" nature more regardless though. Taking over enemy troops via ovipositor + hypnotic eyes sounds like a scary good idea that's underused. Something along the lines of the kabalyte/true born upgrades from the drukhari codex? If thats the case i think it would be a pretty clean and interesting solution although not very creative. |
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Post by infornography on Jun 28, 2021 18:45:24 GMT
Maybe we should have three different Core unit classes in the GSC codex.
one for PSGS and Patty.
one for brood bros.
and one for the cult.
That way they can have different bonuses for the units that are not really part of the cult and don't follow the cult creed, but they can still have some bonuses.
Like for the brood bros, maybe have half the bonus that the given guard faction has (like the second half of whatever Cadia gets if you stole some cadian troops) on top of the thing they currently get for brood bros.
For the PSGS and patty, maybe give them a list of originating hive fleet bonuses tweaked slightly to be relevant specifically to genestealers.
I understand where they were coming from saying that the genestealers don't think or behave like the cult, but to take away the cult creed and give them NOTHING in return clearly doesn't work either.
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Post by LordPathos on Jun 29, 2021 6:43:28 GMT
I always thought it would be cool that if you had a GSC detachment and a Tyranid detachment, if any GSC Patriachs or Pure Genestealers were ever in Synapse range of a Nid Synapse Creature, you would then treat Patty and his PGS as though were now Nid units and could never go back. Could happen during your command phase, maybe you decide when it happens instead of it being automatic (cuz that would be awful), etc.
Probably too fluffy to become a rule, definitely a headache to keep track of, but a neat idea.
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Post by mule on Jun 30, 2021 15:19:51 GMT
Maybe we should have three different Core unit classes in the GSC codex. one for PSGS and Patty. one for brood bros. and one for the cult. That way they can have different bonuses for the units that are not really part of the cult and don't follow the cult creed, but they can still have some bonuses. Like for the brood bros, maybe have half the bonus that the given guard faction has (like the second half of whatever Cadia gets if you stole some cadian troops) on top of the thing they currently get for brood bros. For the PSGS and patty, maybe give them a list of originating hive fleet bonuses tweaked slightly to be relevant specifically to genestealers. I understand where they were coming from saying that the genestealers don't think or behave like the cult, but to take away the cult creed and give them NOTHING in return clearly doesn't work either. Yeah, basically the less rules something gets, the cheaper it should be. I dont even think I'd take genestealers in gsc at the tyranid genestealer cost. |
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Post by mattblowers on Jul 1, 2021 0:07:12 GMT
And I think this is going to be a reoccuring theme until they fully transistion broodlords and genestealers into being gsc only. (please do not swear) me, I hope the hell not. Genestealers in GSC are awful and have been awful except for the brief stint at the end of 7th when we had that codex for 6 months. I got into Tyranids because of genestealers and hormogaunts. I have 12 broodlords and 3 patriarchs. I sure hope they don't get rid of them and now I can run 1 of the 15. In 5th-7th when broodlords were a unit upgrade I'd run MSU units to some effect. Run up, go to ground when they targeted me. Then in my psychic phase cast dominion to get them all to stand up and charge on my turn. Genestealers were pretty much hot garbage, but opponents really struggled to deal with this strategy. In 7th I'd run (6 IIRC) lictors and a Deathleaper along side them to really do sillyness. Lictors were really great at popping the ubiquitous wave serpents. Oh, and Ymargls. I loved Ymargls. Oppoents were terrified of getting close to terrain. |
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Post by mule on Jul 1, 2021 2:32:52 GMT
And I think this is going to be a reoccuring theme until they fully transistion broodlords and genestealers into being gsc only. (please do not swear) me, I hope the hell not. Genestealers in GSC are awful and have been awful except for the brief stint at the end of 7th when we had that codex for 6 months. I got into Tyranids because of genestealers and hormogaunts. I have 12 broodlords and 3 patriarchs. I sure hope they don't get rid of them and now I can run 1 of the 15. In 5th-7th when broodlords were a unit upgrade I'd run MSU units to some effect. Run up, go to ground when they targeted me. Then in my psychic phase cast dominion to get them all to stand up and charge on my turn. Genestealers were pretty much hot garbage, but opponents really struggled to deal with this strategy. In 7th I'd run (6 IIRC) lictors and a Deathleaper along side them to really do sillyness. Lictors were really great at popping the ubiquitous wave serpents. Oh, and Ymargls. I loved Ymargls. Oppoents were terrified of getting close to terrain. Oh I love genestealers I just don't think they fit the tyranid narrative anymore and I think all the genestealer lore fits better as cult primary. Right now I feel like genestealers and broodlords actually pidgeon hole the rest of the army into being some weird suckhole. Like gants should 100% be a lil better and genestealers should be able to more or less go toe to toe with primaris in melee (idc if this has any fluff if i get genestealers to your face and in combat with you they should trade up pointswise) Lictors losing their -1 stuff just puts them in this weird bubble where they more or less fill what ymgarl did before which was just like foward units of anti infantry. I'd love for us to be able to take lictors for that role and actually use them in a 1-5 model unit. Like i said before even if gsc genestealers were the same points as the tyranid genestealers in 8e and/or in 9e it wouldn't change much. Because the unit profile does the same thing as an acolyte does but acolytes we can do more with. But if they gave them 2 wounds and a 4++ or 2 wounds 5++ and S5 4 attacks base I think they could have their place as a forward aggressive unit, even if they're like 15-20 points each. I don't see tyranids getting a unit like that and if they did what would be the point of warriors/hormagants. Genestealers would completely overwrite those things purpose where if they were slotted in there they could do something more with abberants and make them ogrynn offshoots for GSC and acolytes be more focus'd around anti tank and anti terminator etc sort of thing. Though i guess that'd put metamorph is a really weird spot. |
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Post by hivefleetkerrigan on Jul 1, 2021 11:52:06 GMT
I'm thinking that genestealers are going to go up to two wounds and have rending claws do two damage. I feel like this would fill out their niche in the army (or both armies).
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Post by mattblowers on Jul 1, 2021 12:06:23 GMT
I'm thinking that genestealers are going to go up to two wounds and have rending claws do two damage. I feel like this would fill out their niche in the army (or both armies). Hope in one hand, (please do not swear) in the other. GW was fine to let genestealers swing in the breeze for 10 years before with no attention, I wouldn't be shocked if it happened again. Oh I love genestealers I just don't think they fit the tyranid narrative anymore and I think all the genestealer lore fits better as cult primary. Only because they made a decision to fill out the GSC back story. I could more readily see them reabsorb the GSC back into the Tyranid codex: there is precedent for that: Black Templars into the SM codex and Scions into the Astra Militarum codex. The problem is they cranked up Adeptes Astartes in general and Primaris in particular. Primaris have always outpunched genestealers. Genestealers were dead in the water when the 2nd SM codex dropped in the 8th that had White Scar scouts (really GW? scouts?!) outpunching genestealers. That's a whole other problem. Genestealers are kind of superfluous in the GSC codex because acolytes do it better for cheaper. And metamorphs, don't get me started on metamorphs. I spent a fortune in metamorphs buying the way overpriced boxes and buying claws only to have them made obsolete. It really soured me on GSC. I spent nearly $400 on metamorphs alone only to have them deep sixed in a few months. |
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Post by infornography on Jul 1, 2021 13:00:25 GMT
Genestealers currently fill a role in the Tyranid codex that nothing else comes close to filling. Specifically mid priced shock troops.
We have hormies and termies for fodder and screens and such. Warriors are SUPPOSED to be our top shelf troops that go toe to toe with Gravis and Terminators. Genestealers are the main workhorse of our troops category. They are the ones that do most of the actual killing of things in melee. If they went away hormies would need a HUGE buff and point increase, which doesn't seem right.
Warriors need a little help to bring them in line with their role, some of which will hopefully be fixed by GW improving their weapons when the new codex drops (hopefully).
If Genies leave the Tyranid codex, it would leave a huge gap in our capabilities and pretty much put the last nail in the coffin of melee focused nids. I'm not saying we would practically be Tau at that point but man would it be a big step in that direction.
No, Genestealers need to stay in the Tyranid codex. It is too important of a role to dispose of.
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Post by mule on Jul 2, 2021 3:15:49 GMT
Genestealers currently fill a role in the Tyranid codex that nothing else comes close to filling. Specifically mid priced shock troops. We have hormies and termies for fodder and screens and such. Warriors are SUPPOSED to be our top shelf troops that go toe to toe with Gravis and Terminators. Genestealers are the main workhorse of our troops category. They are the ones that do most of the actual killing of things in melee. If they went away hormies would need a HUGE buff and point increase, which doesn't seem right. Warriors need a little help to bring them in line with their role, some of which will hopefully be fixed by GW improving their weapons when the new codex drops (hopefully). If Genies leave the Tyranid codex, it would leave a huge gap in our capabilities and pretty much put the last nail in the coffin of melee focused nids. I'm not saying we would practically be Tau at that point but man would it be a big step in that direction. No, Genestealers need to stay in the Tyranid codex. It is too important of a role to dispose of. This just doesn't seem accurate. Every fluff piece you read about genestealers they're hiding in shadows they're outflanking, they're on a ship attacking like the xenos from alien. They are not 2x40 man blobs thrown to the wolves of the frontline. Like I said before the role of what a genestealer does in the army fluffwise is already done by lictors. If they're being used as a genestealer they're already distanced from the hivemind to some extent. Ymgarl, First Curse. They're there before the tendrils of the tyranid forces get there and thats why I don't think they're actually all that tyraniddy. I think you're thinking in the current context of the books and not what the codex could be. Things like Lictors could fulfill the genestealer role entirely. They have the same tools rending claws and flesh hooks, they're the vanguard unit for tyranids and if you were able to take them in groups of 5-10 instead of units of 1 they could 100% replace genestealers in their entirerty when it comes to tyranid fluff. Fast unit, anti MEQ via Melee etc . You could still take genestealers in the army, but they'd be a new detachment with GSC rules since they're distanced from the tyranid lore. |
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I think this is going to be a reoccuring theme. I don't think the Boyz models are going to be cheap either, and the new guard models that they have are like $6 cad a model iirc. Still not as expensive as an acolyte but you can take 1.5 each so they're like 9$ point wise.
