Newbie player seeks advice for a 2k army

[mak]

Hey guys, I started with this hobby around February this year, and I got to say it has enthralled me. The lore, the game, the assembling and painting aspect, just really awesome hobby. I started out with Tau, but quickly changed to Tyranid due to Tau being unplayable and me getting destroyed by every other faction. Besides I'm a giant Alien franchise fan, and absolutely love the aesthetics of the Tyranid Warrior which resemble the Xenomorph quite a lot. 

My questions to you guys are, what do I do with my army from here? Going to a small local tournament in July, to test my strength against other factions. So far I've only had the experience of fighting Space Wolves, Khorne Deamons, and Nurgle, which I've surprisingly won all of them, however not easily though, since those Space Marines are insanely powerful. I mean they have tools for just about everything, their saves, their toughness, their -AP and strength. SM just excels everywhere, so I had to rely a lot on points and weathering the storm the Emperor's wrath. Is this a normal occurrence? To struggle against SM?

My current army, which I've managed to buy so far is:

++ Battalion Detachment 0CP (Tyranids) [86 PL, 8CP, 1,529pts] ++



+ Configuration [12CP] +



[Reference] Discipline: Hive Mind: Smite



Battle Size [12CP]: 3. Strike Force (101-200 Total PL / 1001-2000 Points) [12CP]



Detachment Command Cost



Gametype: Matched



Hive Fleet: Behemoth



+ Stratagems [-4CP] +



Bounty of the Hive Fleet [-3CP]: 2 Extra Bio-artefacts [-3CP]



Progeny of the Hive [-1CP]



+ HQ [23 PL, 445pts] +



Broodlord [7 PL, 125pts]: Monstrous Rending Claws, Power: Catalyst, Power: Smite, Resonance Barb



Broodlord [7 PL, 125pts]: Monstrous Rending Claws, Power: Onslaught, Power: Smite, The Ymgarl Factor



Hive Tyrant [9 PL, 195pts]: Adrenal Glands [5pts], Heavy Venom Cannon [20pts], Monstrous Scything Talons [10pts], Power: Paroxysm, Power: Smite, Power: Unstoppable Hunger, Prehensile Pincer Tail, Scythes of Tyran, Toxin Sacs [5pts], Warlord

. Adaptive Physiology: Murderous Size



+ Troops [47 PL, 774pts] +



Genestealers [12 PL, 180pts]

. 12x Genestealer [180pts]: 12x Rending Claws



Genestealers [12 PL, 180pts]

. 12x Genestealer [180pts]: 12x Rending Claws



Hormagaunts [6 PL, 72pts]

. 12x Hormagaunt [72pts]: 12x Scything Talons



Termagants [9 PL, 168pts]

. 24x Termagant (Devourer) [168pts]: 24x Devourer [48pts]



Tyranid Warriors [8 PL, 174pts]

. Adaptive Physiology: Enhanced Resistance

. Tyranid Warrior [26pts]: Boneswords [3pts], Deathspitter [6pts]

. Tyranid Warrior [26pts]: Boneswords [3pts], Deathspitter [6pts]

. Tyranid Warrior [26pts]: Boneswords [3pts], Deathspitter [6pts]

. Tyranid Warrior [26pts]: Boneswords [3pts], Deathspitter [6pts]

. Tyranid Warrior (Bio-cannon) [35pts]: Boneswords [3pts], Venom Cannon [15pts]

. Tyranid Warrior (Bio-cannon) [35pts]: Boneswords [3pts], Venom Cannon [15pts]



+ Heavy Support [16 PL, 310pts] +



Trygon [8 PL, 155pts]: 3x Massive Scything Talons, Adrenal Glands [5pts], Bio-electric Pulse, Toxinspike



Trygon [8 PL, 155pts]: 3x Massive Scything Talons, Adrenal Glands [5pts], Bio-electric Pulse, Toxinspike


I obviously want to get to the 2k mark, with an army that can compete without having to be strict meta army. Any feedback and guidance to a noob player, would be much appreciated. Thanks so much in advance!

[piersonsmuppet]

Unless you have FW models, be prepared for every fight to be a struggle. Tyranids are not an easy army to play without them since they are the only units with 9th ed rules. To be quite frank, I'm surprised you were able to beat SW's with being heavy on units/wargear that are not ideal for the matchup. GS, Devgants, and DS/BS warriors all struggle with killing marines this edition due to the 2W bump for primaris, abundance of storm shields, and the Gravis armor strat. The fact that Transhuman can render the Behemoth fleet power useless adds to Behemoths woes against SM armies.

First suggestion, only use two relics at most. 2 CP is much too expensive for what relic options Tyranids get, with the Resonance Barb/SoT combo being one of the few 2 relic combinations wholly worth 1 CP. Hunger should also be on the Barb BL; 7 WC w/o the +1 from Barb is getting too close to a crapshoot for such an impact play. . 12 Horms is likely to die faster than 10 due to Blast, and are usually played either 10-man or 30-man. 10 is a useful sacrificial unit, and 30 can hold objectives pretty well w/ Catalyst. The Warriors have the same thing and are usually run as 5-man to avoid Blast, or a 9-man with ER to be tough to remove. LW/BS is a hidden gem on Warriors; it stops a lot of plays that use consolidation to grab objectives or tie-up another unit, and also providing a deterrent to glass cannon units from charging and wiping the Warriors. Running them as a 5-man with LW/BS & DS is a fairly optimal option since VC are meh due to BS4+, and are mostly used with Prime or the re-roll custom fleet trait.

For things you could look to add, SL is always welcome in Tyranid Melee focused lists. Even trading out a Trygon and Ymgarl BL for him would help, you'd get to dictate engagements better. If you want to keep ER on Warriors, bumping their numbers to 9 is usually a good idea.

[mak]

Thanks for the response Pierson, you made me feel like a complete noob, so that is nice, hahaha!

My win rate most likely have something to do with the fact, that my friends and I are new players, and it takes time to get settled in. Think we are at a good place now in regards to how we interpret the rules.



I put your feedback to good use, nice to get some insight from experienced players, who know what they talk about.



++ Battalion Detachment 0CP (Tyranids) [41 PL, 10CP, 756pts] ++



+ Configuration [12CP] +



[Reference] Discipline: Hive Mind



Battle Size [12CP]: 3. Strike Force (101-200 Total PL / 1001-2000 Points) [12CP]



Detachment Command Cost



Gametype: Matched



Hive Fleet: Behemoth



+ Stratagems [-2CP] +



Bounty of the Hive Fleet [-1CP]: 1 Extra Bio-artefact [-1CP]



Progeny of the Hive [-1CP]



+ HQ [21 PL, 394pts] +



Broodlord [7 PL, 125pts]: Monstrous Rending Claws, Power: Smite, Power: Unstoppable Hunger, Resonance Barb



Hive Tyrant [9 PL, 185pts]: Heavy Venom Cannon [20pts], Monstrous Scything Talons [10pts], Power: Catalyst, Power: Paroxysm, Power: Smite, Prehensile Pincer Tail, Scythes of Tyran, Warlord

. Adaptive Physiology: Murderous Size



Tyranid Prime [5 PL, 84pts]: Deathspitter [6pts], Lash Whip and Bonesword [3pts]



+ Troops [20 PL, 362pts] +



Hormagaunts [3 PL, 60pts]

. 10x Hormagaunt [60pts]: 10x Scything Talons



Termagants [9 PL, 168pts]

. 24x Termagant (Devourer) [168pts]: 24x Devourer [48pts]



Tyranid Warriors [8 PL, 134pts]

. Adaptive Physiology: Enhanced Resistance

. Tyranid Warrior [26pts]: Deathspitter [6pts], Lash Whip and Bonesword [3pts]

. Tyranid Warrior [26pts]: Deathspitter [6pts], Lash Whip and Bonesword [3pts]

. Tyranid Warrior [26pts]: Deathspitter [6pts], Lash Whip and Bonesword [3pts]

. Tyranid Warrior [26pts]: Deathspitter [6pts], Lash Whip and Bonesword [3pts]

. Tyranid Warrior (Bio-cannon) [30pts]: Barbed Strangler [10pts], Boneswords [3pts]



++ Patrol Detachment -2CP (Tyranids) [47 PL, -2CP, 785pts] ++



+ Configuration [-2CP] +



Detachment Command Cost [-2CP]



Hive Fleet: Kraken



+ HQ [7 PL, 125pts] +



Broodlord [7 PL, 125pts]: Monstrous Rending Claws, Power: Smite, Power: Synaptic Lure



+ Troops [24 PL, 360pts] +



Genestealers [12 PL, 180pts]

. 12x Genestealer [180pts]: 12x Rending Claws



Genestealers [12 PL, 180pts]

. 12x Genestealer [180pts]: 12x Rending Claws



+ Heavy Support [16 PL, 300pts] +



Trygon [8 PL, 150pts]: 3x Massive Scything Talons, Bio-electric Pulse, Toxinspike



Trygon [8 PL, 150pts]: 3x Massive Scything Talons, Bio-electric Pulse, Toxinspike



++ Total: [88 PL, 8CP, 1,541pts] ++


So with your guidance in mind, I reduced the warriors to 5 to avoid the blast rule, added a prime for the extra hit. Reduced the number of relics from 3 to 2, and put hunger onto the BL with Barb. 

LW/BS is a hidden gem on Warriors; it stops a lot of plays that use consolidation to grab objectives or tie-up another unit, and also providing a deterrent to glass cannon units from charging and wiping the Warriors

Can you elaborate that? Not entirely sure what you mean mate.

Also had the idea of splitting it army up in to two detachments, to give the genestealers and Trygons the extra advancement, as well as being able to fall back and charge in the same turn. Again, just a newbie thought I had. Think I'll have more "luck" with this setup then?
Most likely won't get any FW models anytime soon, and with some Hive Guards on their way, what else should I try to add to my army? More monsters? I looked at a toxicrene, love the design!

Thanks for the response mate, it helps a lot!

[piersonsmuppet]

LW & BS prevents the opponent from using a consolidation move to gain distance. Essentially, most things that charge warriors can wipe a non 9-man unit. Then they use consolidation to get onto an objective or into combat with another unit. LW & BS also lets you hit back, and you can punish the opponent since many combat units survive by wiping what they charge.

With the spilt, you took 5 of the 7 Hunger targets out of behemoth. GS really like Hunger for charging T4/5, and Trygons wounding T8 on 3’s, or anything lower on 2’s, is wonderful. Also, Devgants really like Kraken for the strat/Onslaught combo to easily get into shooting range. I would say maybe keep 1 stealer unit and 1 Trygon in Behemoth, and move the Devgants to Kraken. This makes sure both Trygons have charge re-rolls when entering T2.

Warrior Prime isnt generally worth the points unless buffing a 9-man w/ 3 VC. Prime is points efficient with 7 warriors, but buffing just 7 DS is meh.

Upgrading a Trygon to Prime and giving the AG relic can at times be worth the 2 CP for a third relic. Reducing the charge whiff chance helps prevent sad times. However, youd probably need to be mono-fleet so you have enough CP.

[mak]

Thanks a lot for the help, I see now what you mean with the LW / BS combo, my Tyranid Warriors got completely destroyed by a pack of Bloodcrushers after a consolidate move today. However I'm happy to inform that I won the battle against chaos with my first game using Tyrant and Warriors!

The list I used:

Behemot Hive Patrol
HQ - 
HT with Scythes of Tyran, Catalyst and Paroxysm, with Stranglethorn Cannon
BL with RB and Unstoppable Hunger like you said for the +1 to psychic test.

Troops - 
Genestealer x20 instead of 2x12 to maintain more rounds with 10+ for the extra attack.
Homergaunts x10 to avoid blast weapons.

Heavy Support - 
2x Trygons

Kronos Hive Patrol
HQ - 
Broodlord for symbiotstorm
Tyranid Prime for the extra BS skill to warriors.

Troops - 
Tyranid Warriors x5 with Scything Talons since deamons only have 5++ sv, so I figured why spend points on weapons + rerolls to 1s. I also took Deathspitter, and one bio-cannon Barbed Strangler.
Termagaunts x24 for the insane amount of rerolls for being 20+ models, for being Kronos Hive, and Symbiotstorm.


VS.

World Eaters CSM Patrol
HQ - 
Deamon Prince

Troops - 
Khorne Beserkers x10
Khorne Beserkers x10


Transport - 
Chaos Rhino
Chaos Rhino

Khrone Deamons Patrol 
HQ - 
Bloodmaster

Troops - 
Bloodletters x20 

Elites - 
Bloodcrushers x6

Heavy Support - 
Skull Cannon
Skull Cannon

Did film some of it just to show it off, but file is too big. Nearly get into a fistfight over the god damn rules sometimes, but it's a learning process. Getting better with each battle!
Surprised I won actually, his list seemed so intimidating compared to mine, which is just infantry basically.

[piersonsmuppet]

Glad you could benefit from the advice. A big thing when learning the game is to roll off for rules if the discussion becomes too heated. If you spend more than a few minutes in disagreement, no amount of talking will probably change any minds.

[mak]

We started doing that yeah, can become a bit bitter when you lose the roll-off and you'd have to live with some irrational rule. But I agree with you a 100%, arguing goes nowhere, you'd always be biased towards your oponion, and vice versa. So guess the roll-off is the way to go, until we get a third party more experienced player who can shed some light on it.
Few things we argued about:

My friend argued that if the Transporter exploded with his beserkers inside they would not take any explosive damage. His arguement for it, was because when they are inside the Transport they are "off the board", and cannot recieve buffs from a psyker either. Needlessly to say I told him that was complete (please do not swear), when it explodes the unit inside needs to roll for explosive damage. Also proposed we put him in an exploding car just to see if he would take damage or not, hahaha!

Argued a bit about the consolidate, he killed some warriors of mine, was out of reach from the others, since they were standing next to the prime and hive tyrant. I suggested he would have to declare charge against all the targets he wanted to attack beforehand, where he wanted to just consolidate into different units and use a stratagem to fight again.
And the stratagem Counter-Offensive how it really works, I suggested it might be when one player makes all of his charges, then he fights with one of his unit and instead of alternating to his next eligible unit, the Counter-Offensive would take priority and let the other player fight with one of his units before the first player continue as normal.
Same with these stratagems that allows you to fight again at the end of the fight phase, are the opposing player able to fight back before the stratagem takes effect, or only after?
And then the whole within ½" of another model, which makes it important that your units stay in the exact same formation after their charge, as they did before their charge. Which makes pile in move so much more important.

Thanks again mate! Appreciated.

[beetlejuice]

He’a right about the explosion, he rolls for each model instead.

” If there are any units embarked within the destroyed TRANSPORT model, these must now immediately disembark before the model itself is removed from the battlefield; these units are not affected by the destroyed model’s Explodes ability (or equivalent) – instead you must roll one D6 for each model you just set up on the battlefield. For each roll of 1, a model that disembarked (your choice) is destroyed.”

For fight again with charging units you can only target what you declared charges against. So if unit A charges unit B then consolidates into unit C and fights again, unit A can pile in again (into unit D even) but can only make attacks against unit B even if engagement range with unit C. All enemy units (B, C, D) in engagement range with unit A then get to pile in and make attacks into unit A. Non charging units can fight anything in engagement range.

” FIGHT AGAIN
Some rules allow units to fight again in the Fight phase, or fight ‘as if it were the Fight phase’. Such rules cannot be used on a unit unless it is eligible to fight at the time when that rule is used. Remember that a unit is only eligible to fight if it is within Engagement Range of an enemy unit, or if it made a charge move in the same turn. In addition, all the normal targeting rules apply to a unit that is using a rule to fight again (e.g. if the unit made a charge move this turn it can still only target enemy units it declared a charge against or that performed a Heroic Intervention).

If a rule allows a unit to fight again, then it will pile in, make close combat attacks and consolidate again. Treat each time a unit is selected to fight as a separate unit being selected to fight for all rules purposes. This means that after it has fought for the first time in a phase, your opponent can choose an eligible unit to fight with before you fight with your unit for a second time (you need not consecutively use both of the unit's opportunities to fight — unless of course there are no other eligible units to select to fight with). If such a unit charged this turn, it will still fight both times before any units that did not charge. Note that any rule that interrupts the normal sequence of who fights first can be used to fight inbetween the unit's first and second fight.

If a rule is used to make a unit fight again at the end of the Fight phase, and the unit ends its consolidation move within Engagement Range of any enemy units that have not yet been selected to fight during this phase, those units are now eligible units and your opponent can fight with them before the phase ends.”

[piersonsmuppet]

You were right about the charge declaration, chargers can only attack what they declared as charge targets AND any units which performed a Heroic Intervention... so careful if you think you can Heroically Intervene with impunity. Chargers also need to succeed their charge against ALL declared targets, just an FYI for future games for when your friend attempts a multi-charge and (looking at the trend) tries to bend the rules a bit.

You were also right about Counter-Offensive as well, which you choose to use immediately after one of the opponent's units fights... full stop. If there where no fight last abilities in play, then you do just that. Rare rules for fight first/fight last clarify for C-O in more complicated situations.

Not sure what you mean about the 1/2" statement. Rarely will your unit be in the same formation prior to a charge as after (unless you roll the exact distance you need). Only one model needs to get into engagement range, so you can do some crafty movements to spread a unit so that it's easier to pile-in to 1/2" of 1/2".