Best unit to hold an objective against imperial guard

[swarmboi]

Hi all, I'd like to gather your thoughts on the best nids to hold an objective.

Warriors are always a good choice, now cheaper and have 3 wounds but I've had these decimated in turn 1 previously... zoanthropes come to mind with the 3+ invuln

I'd like to ask what everyone else uses? I've got a swarm ready to take objectives from my opponent but I'm a bit lacking on holding my own objective...

[TheDeepestShadow]

Hmm so this largely depends on what specifically is killing your Warriors, since as you said they're pretty good for their cost at sitting around for a while. I assume your issue is with tanks with multi-damage weapons if the Warriors are getting decimated, or large volume of fire from something like Scions? Also, how much terrain do you play with and what else is in your list to draw fire?

Another factor that will affect your unit choices is what Hive Fleet you are using, as if you're looking for durability then Jormungandr and Leviathan are the best for this. In general, if the Warriors aren't working out, you can't really go wrong with a full squad of Termagants since even though they die quickly it's still 30 wounds to get through, not including any other defensive buffs.

[yoritomo]

When looking at units you take to hold backfield objectives you need to consider three things; reach, durability, and cost. Let’s look at each one in depth.


COST- one of the basic tenants of fighting battles is that you want to bring as much as you can to the fight. Units babysitting backfield objectives generally don’t bring much to the fight so it is best to keep them as cheap as possible.

DURABILITY- your backfield units don’t do much when they’re dead. Keep in mind that durability doesn’t just mean how well a unit can take a hit, but also how well you can hide a unit and prevent them from taking hits.

REACH- technically this is called power projection, but in layman’s terms it is how far away the unit can effect the battle. Remember that the unit will be tied to an objective so it won’t be able to maneuver itself to get into a position to attack.

It should be noted that you only need two of these three things to be a good backfield unit. Let’s look at some units that people consider good at holding backfield objectives.

Rippers: they are cheap and easy to hide making them durable.
Hive guard: they have good reach and their weapon doesn’t need line of sight making them more durable.
Zoanthrope: 3++ save makes them durable and their psychic powers give them reach.

With this in mind you need to look at what your opponent brings and what the battlefield terrain looks like. This is what you need to think about when selecting backfield units. Is there enough terrain to hide units? Then maybe hive guard are the answer. Does your opponent bring only guardsmen? Then maybe a monstrous creature is the answer.

[niiai]

I would go with the harradrian. It is very hard to kill. 700 points of pure durability.

[Bohxim]

But in the context of holding an objective, wouldn't the harridan lose a good portion of its durability just to hold it? Since it needs to hover before it can hold objectives, which makes it lose the - 1 to hit.
Granted it is still 34w of t8 mass, but feels like it's easily contested and they'd make you waste its awesome guns shooting at chaff objective contesters instead of other things, no?

[No One]

Harridan is Aircraft, it can't hold anything  .

Best dedicated objective holders we have are warriors/terms/rippers depending on terrain/opponent. Backline units (e.g. hive guard/exo), or their babysitters (i.e. neuro) can work as well, but that's not something to bank on: it basically requires favourable terrain and objective placement, and may open yourself up to losing both damage and scoring.

[Bohxim]

Oooh that's worse then. Totally no chance to hold objectives heh

[infornography]

I think Warriors or Devilgaunts are the best objective holders we have. Unfortunately both can be removed with a bit of dedicated firepower. The answer then is simply... more of them? Tyranids excel at being in your face and providing threats all over the board. If your opponent has the dedicated firepower to remove lots of warriors and/or devilgaunts, then you are probably not doing so good elsewhere either or their target priority is off.

Also are we talking backfield, midfield or enemy side objective holders? The answer changes things slightly.

I still love rippers for midgame front line objective holders. Have your front line clear enemies off, then pop up the rippers on the objective the next turn. Sure they are relatively easy to remove, but that would be drawing fire away from your front line units that are removing their stuff.

As always your mileage may vary.

[purestrain]

Also remember the 1cp strat for -1 to hit rippers if they never move after deepstrike, so they basically become bullet vacuums against low BS shooters like guard or low damage weaponry like militarum tempestas.

[kukie]

I personally have the best results with swarming the board with threats and chaff. some hive guard in the back with termagaunts to screen and a neurothrope. let them hold your backfield objectives. Then shoot the rest of your army up the board to overwhelm the guard with targets. things i've learned that may be helpful

1-have AT LEAST 2 units on both of your backfield objectives. If you leave just one unit on an objective most armies can focus it down. (2x10 termeguants on each objective, a neurothrope or broodlord for a 3rd units isn't a bad idea)

2-i like to have 2 units of 3 hive guard in the back field. that big 6 hive guard are great when they are shooting twice but most of my games they get tagged and are worthless for the rest of the game. Also the 2 CP to fire twice is nice but drains you CP quickly. I'd rather have one of the units of 3 hive guard shooting 3-4 turns than just have one big 6 hive guard unit shoot on turn one, get tagged turn 2, then be worthless for the rest of the game.

3-pressure the enemy to shoot at your guants/genestealer/Dimas/or whatever unit that is charging their lines. The Dimas I see in most lists do decent damage but the real killer in those lists is the Exocrines and hive guard that are shooting the whole game untouched because the enemy army is so focused on taking down the dimas.

[trashcan01]

Most of the games I've played is against the Guard so I actually feel confident enough to contribute here.
There is no universal answer. Rippers are easy to hide. Gaunts have numbers. Warriors and Zhoantropes have durability and Synapse is our friend. That's it.


Now, members with more piloting experience are welcome to correct me, but I think you're looking at the problem from the wrong perspective.

I've noticed that every game against Guard has a similar tempo due to their synergy/auras/orders, the Guard is going to hurt you in the first few turns. What you want to do is to set up overwhelming pressure in turns 3-4-5. Don't get demoralized by low body count on the board and start a panic deep strike turn 2 - before the rest of your army is in position. Just don't. Save bodies in turn 1 and 2. Every gaunt counts in the late game - don't give your opponent free kills. Hide the gaunts them and wait. Gaunts win games.


The Guard is comfortable with holding objectives close to their deployment zone. If you manage to threaten those in mid and late game (within point efficiency), the game is already won.

My advice is to analyze the games and see how does your opponent handles contesting mid and far field objectives.


What I'm trying to say is, you shouldn't be thinking that you need something that can sit on the objective and survive the Guard's firepower, instead focus on thinking on how to deny your opponent the ability to inflict damage effectively in the first place. You need to try to boil the game down to "rock-paper-scissors" situation. And this, my friend, is the beauty of the game.

SPOILER: Click to show

ROCK
Guards chaff infantry has decent mid range and deadly short range firepower. They will devastate gaunts, rippers and zhoantropes, are okay vs Warriors but struggle against monstrous units. Clear as much chaff in turns 1 and 2. If your opponent isn't careful, he/she will not be able to have enough shots to threaten gaunt body count late game and deal with immediate threats.
Weak point: High Toughness/High saves/High rate of fire - Carnifex with Senses and Spores, Twin Devourers and HVC being the most cost effective unit to deal with those.

PAPER
Vehicle artillery/tanks are great against models with multiple wounds, but struggle against targets invulnerable (++) and high (2+) saves, -1 modifiers (from Venomthropes/Spores/Kraken Relic) and Catalyst (Feel no Pain) help a lot here.
Weak point: melee. Make an for an opening for a deep strike/Movement phase stratagems/Onslaught and engage. If you are shooting at them, calculate carefully to either get them in the lower wound bracket for penalties or shoot to kill the most dangerous models.

SCISSORS
Guard Elite is a wide range of Armored Sentinels (harassment and contesting), Transports with Veterans and Characters (glass cannons), Bull/Ogryns (counter-charge) etc. A good guard player will always include a few of these and try to exploit any weaknesses and mistakes in your game. You need to recognize the threat in time and counter either by bodyblocking (this is why you need to save gaunts for late game) or killing them.
Weakness: Multiple wound weapons (Hive Guards, Heavy Venom Cannons) and Mortal Wounds (Zhoans/Psy powers) will usually do the trick here. 

Dedicate the next game or two to learn to deal with turns 1 and 2. If you get the early trades properly and minimize the early casualties, you have a good foundation to build your mid and late game. Also, don't change the army composition for every game. Stick with the similar composition, learn to pilot an army and then tweak and adapt. It would be nice if you could write a battle report after a game.

[zimko]

The best way to hold objectives against Guard (or anything) is to remove anything that has high mobility first so that they can't reach objectives on your side of the board. If they can't reach your objectives then anything is good at holding an objective. You only need to hold 2 (3 for certain missions) objectives to score 40 out of 45 points. If the game goes well and you're wiping your opponent out then you can hold 3+ on a turn to max it.

[purestrain]

With the new Stuff that just came out in MK2 it turns out that monsters are on the up and up again, maybe use a tyrannofex to hold it LOL

[Phelddagrif]

The best way to hold obj vs Guard is just good offense in my experience, just kill their stuff which can move fast, and then try to kill/lock in place the stuff that can't move fast, I only played vs Tank heavy lists tho, which I believe aren't the most popular, so idk if that's helpful