Flyrant Vs Dimachaeron Vs Scythed Hierodule

[dmt]

Hello guys, today I would like to start a thread about whichone of these pieces are better to use as CC options in a competitive list.

Hive Tyrant
Pros: Fly Movement 16,Hidden, synapse, psyker, cannon option, 4++
Cons: 4 Attacks, 12 Wounds, strenght 6

Dimachaeron
Pros: 6 Attacks, 18 wounds, strenght 7+1,Thorax Spine-maw, 5++, Fast attack slot
Cons: can't hide, no shoot

Scythed Hierodule
Pros: 6 Attacks, 18 wounds, strenght & toughness 8, CC attacks at S10
Cons: can't hide, no invulnerable, hard to move due his base

I would like to hear your opinions considering and assuming that Hive Tyrant has the same role of others 2, damage dealers and counter charge or CC threat

[No One]

So, I disagree with your flyrant summary: stock flyrant just doesn't have the output to be a damage dealer or cc threat. You need size and double scy tals (or tyran): so you have oomph, basically as much as the other options into many targets (1 less attack, but 2s vs 3s). It's once you get into tanks, especially T7/8 that the flyrant really falls behind in damage. It also requires adapts, which are an important option, and you aren't running any shooting either.

The durability between the 3 options is similar-ish: the flyrant probably wins out in general just due to obscuring, but that's meta dependant. Otherwise the 4++ is the same as the extra wounds and 5++ of the dima where it matters, and is similar-ish to the T8 of the dule (again, where both are relevant).

[wormlord666]

If you are looking for a CC threat, I think the only way to get the flyrant working is the ”murderrant” which is Behemot, monsterous size, scytches of Tyran and even toxin sacs. Combine with bemehot spell and he’ll be kick’n butt. Otherwise the flyrant is to weak and only works as a tool for things like skirmishing, psychic support, clearing screens etc.

The hierodule I have no experience of, but the Dima is a beast in killing vehicles and tough targets. Make him Kraken for speed, use the re-roll wounds and fight twice and he gets work done.

At the current meta we lack number of attacks I think.
Stealers are not in a good spot and the monsters have less attacks then a spacemarine scout so well need to shoot infantry and fight vehicles.

[kazetanade]

Honestly my question is how do we fight into thick invul armies?

Custodes - Telemons are 4++ with 6+++ and -1D, and most of the line has 4++
Dark Angels - Permatrans, 4++, 6+++, brings one back a turn
Necrons - The problematic things all have a 4++
Sisters - Everything has a 4++ in aura
DG - Everything problematic has 4++
DE - has a different set of issues but the characters and wyches are all 4++

The 3 options presented are all very good at cracking into non-invul; in fact most of the Tyranid line is actually pretty decent for cracking into non-invul. Especially in combat, Nids have always been weak to invuls and bounce very painfully off them.

As a just a general beatstick though? I think it's the Scythed Heirodule that's the best beatstick - but the Dimachaeron ignores terrain when moving which trumps most other advantages, since you cant get hard blocked by any terrain in any part of the game. He's basically an almost better FLY (Almost, because he cant charge FLY himself and cannot threaten AIRCRAFT).

[yoritomo]

The tyrant is base 5 attacks (4 plus the tail attack). If you give him both sets of talons he's 5 attacks plus the tail. He also hits on 2+ an rerolls 1's at that point. His hits should be on par with the other two, even though he gets less attacks. He's not bad in close combat, he just doesn't have awesome forge world special rules.

[No One]

kazetanade said:

Honestly my question is how do we fight into thick invul armies?

So far, my answers have been devilgants, smites or just keep chipping away: sure you won't kill the squad, but you'll kill generally kill 2-3 depending on rolls/voracious, and that's generally going to be minimal backswing. Doesn't work as well on DA, but I'm less concerned about footslogging termis compared to talonmaster/attack bikes .

yoritomo said:

The tyrant is base 5 attacks (4 plus the tail attack).

Flyrant tail is S6 AP0: it's almost completely irrelevant. Dima, on the other hand, is S7 AP-3: not as good as the main attacks, but will actually push relevant saves.

He also hits on 2+ an rerolls 1's at that point. His hits should be on par with the other two, even though he gets less attacks.

Dima gets full rerolls to hit with more attacks, thus has more hits, even before getting into tail/spine maw. 'Dule only has rr 1s, so gets slightly less hits, but is also S10 and has a gun when the flyrant wouldn't.

He's not bad in close combat, he just doesn't have awesome forge world special rules.

Stock, he's pretty mediocre: only S6, Dam 3 and AP-3 means that you can't push through reliably against chunkier targets (W4/FNP/DG etc) and are pretty garbage into even med vehicles. Once you get size, you're pretty comparable against a lot of targets. D4 is basically the same as D3+3 for anything other than vehicles/MCs/chars, same with S7 vs 8, and you've got an extra pt of AP as a nice bonus. So it's pretty reasonable, but you're still going to be falling behind into almost every target. So you need to leverage either the psychic, +4" and AG, or obscuring protection to be worth it.

[infornography]

Custodes are hard for everyone to crack. Strong armor, strong invuln, T5+, etc. I think Devilfex and dakkaflyrant are our best tools to deal with them. Volume of S6 firepower to force the maximum number of saves. Still going to be whittling damage, but that might be the only real tool we have.

For everything that is T3, Devilgaunts is the obvious answer. Forces a ton of saves at S4. Pretty much ideal.

For everything that is T4, a combination of Devilgaunts and Devilfexen is probably the recipe.

Exocrine might also not be a bad choice since it would also remove the armor from the equation whenever the armor is better than the invuln.

[No One]

Even into T5, dakkafexes are basically the same as devilgants (can't remember exact pts cost, but 1 dakkafex is slightly worse than 20 devilgants): and I'd much rather have 20 obsec bodies than a single model which doesn't do anything but mediocre shooting. And if you want actual damage, exo still wins out, even ignoring Kronos/symbio/pathogenic.

[kazetanade]

180 shots into 2+ armor is STILL pretty piss poor, because your trade is basically 270 points for like 70. This is trading down by a severe degree, and Devilgants are not the answer to Telemons and other Custodes vehicles that are dominating their lists apparently. Not with shoot into combat being a thing.

Honestly what seems like it will be the best call to me looks like Exocrenes and Barbed Heirodules. Or a Harridan. Just having the weight of shooting on a 2+ to wound is what's going to do it at the end of the day - much like how I see the Fire Raptor does its work, and I've been seeing it do a LOT of work, though tbf the Fire Raptor gets Ironhands buffs up to wazoo to make it oppressive to deal with.

The Harridan is also pretty good in combat - not as wreckingball as the other 3 options, but pretty serviceable assuming we spend the same amount of cp, and gets a good gun out of it at the same time. I mean legit, who is gonna tell me that perpectual 2+ to wound across anything NOT Transhuman'ed is not good?

But digressing - considering the presence of a few AIRCRAFT threats that are making it back into the game *cough Fire Raptor Void Raven Ares cough* makes a FLY capable melee unit a decent choice. At least a Flyrant buffed up with ScyTals + Toxin + Size + Voracious has a decent chance of killing the Fliers on call (maybe not the Ares, I think that's a T8 Flier? That would make things difficult). Also assuming it doesnt die or get degraded by Overwatch.

5A 2+ rr1s = 5 hits; 4+ rr = 3-4 wounds; Ironstone -1D so that's 12-14D, 6+++ (assuming not buffed to 5+++) means 2 saved, so 10-12D? Yea so, not even close, but since we lack high D options and Ironstone is ridiculously hard to deal with, not much to be said. At least Fight Twice secures it, at a lot of overkill.

[zimko]

Ares and Harridan share the same problem with Dawn of War deployment. They can't hang off the board edge, despite the new FAQ that allows them to hang over the deployment zone. So neither can act on the first turn in a Dawn of War deployment map.

[kazetanade]

Apr 20, 2021 19:01:07 GMT zimko said:

Ares and Harridan share the same problem with Dawn of War deployment. They can't hang off the board edge, despite the new FAQ that allows them to hang over the deployment zone. So neither can act on the first turn in a Dawn of War deployment map.

which new FAQ is this?

[TheDeepestShadow]

Apr 21, 2021 2:41:29 GMT kazetanade said:

Apr 20, 2021 19:01:07 GMT zimko said:

Ares and Harridan share the same problem with Dawn of War deployment. They can't hang off the board edge, despite the new FAQ that allows them to hang over the deployment zone. So neither can act on the first turn in a Dawn of War deployment map.

which new FAQ is this?

Not really new since it's from January, but first section on the Core Rulebook FAQ Page 2 for Deploying Large Models:


www.warhammer-community.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/08/UCwQJcYgHo0Gztjk.pdf

Tbh, I haven't really tried measuring out if it's possible to place ol' Harri on DoW without overhanging the battlefield edge but even then it's a big help for every other deployment. Once I get my guy all assembled I'll see if I can finagle it, though ultimately it's also dependent on terrain so Harri still wouldn't be the safest bet for a tournament just for that alone.

[zimko]

I have one and it can't fit. It's wing spam is too wide to fit sideways and it's tail is too long. The Hierophant does fit though as it's 10" wide.