2k Kraken/Kronos varient for GT

[zimko]

I have another GT in 2 weeks. The last GT I took the art of war '2 Dima' list but I hadn't played in a while and the terrain had zero true LOS blockers for 18+ wound models. So I finished the GT with 2 wins and 3 losses. One of the main difficulties I had was trying to find a purpose for my second Dima and deciding between deploying aggressively or defensively. If I play aggressively then I'm playing to go first (all 3 losses I went second). If I deploy defensively then I'm condoning 1 Dima to do nothing for a turn and potentially get killed before his time to shine since I have nowhere to hide him in this terrain. I hate gambling on first turn with 460 pts. (Notice how in John Lennon's games on the Art of War channel, he always has terrain that can hide a Dima? Yeah I don't have access to that in these GTs).

This next GT is being run with similar terrain, except some of the ruins will have 'no windows' on the first floor only... which still doesn't help Dimas much. But it would be good enough to hide a Barbed hierodule in some of the terrain. With that in mind, I'm taking a varient of the Art of War list that focuses more on shooting but still has the long range melee threat.

Kraken Battalion
- Broodlord: Res Barb, Onslaught, Warlord
- The Swarmlord: Catalyst, Paroxysm
- Hormagaunts x10
- Hormagaunts x10
- Termagants x30 w/ Devourers
- Lictor
- Lictor
- Dimachaeron
- Mawloc

Kronos Patrol
- Neurothrope: Symbiostorm
- Ripper Swarms x3
- Hive Guard x6: Enhanced Resistance
- Barbed Hierodule: Dermic Symbiosis
- Exocrine

The idea here is to deploy very defensively with the Dima and use terrain to hide the exocrine, dule and hive guard. Exo and dule can move and shoot at full effectiveness with only 1 CP, while the Hive Guard can do it's thing anywhere. The Dima can deploy in the back of my deployment and still reach whatever I want him to reach. If he gets killed by long range shooting then so be it, I'll make do without him. If I go first, then great I have the same melee threat in this list that I would on turn 1 with the double Dima list if I'm deploying defensively. Either way the Dima is a distraction for the shooting elements in the list.

The Mawloc is a wild card. 20 Hormagaunts or a Mawloc? That's a constant internal debate I have with myself. I've yet to bite the bullet and taken a Mawloc to a tournament and I think I'm finally going to do it. In other games, there have been multiple situations where a Dima left a character with 1 wound, or my shooting left a vehicle at 2 wounds and a Mawloc could just finish them off. Or where a single vehicle was sitting on an objective and it would be so easy to contest if I could just pop in with a mawloc, plus get Engage points. So I'm going to try him. He puts me at 5 monsters, which gives up a potential 10 points to a secondary, but I'm ok with 5 monsters. 5 is my limit. The regular art of war list also had 5 monsters so that seems ok. Not taking 20 extra Hormagaunts reduces the appeal of Thin the Ranks a little bit too. It's still a good secondary vs this list but that can't be avoided with Tyranids unless you're playing all monsters.

[piersonsmuppet]

I like the Mawloc vice 20 guants choice. I find 2x10 gaunts is usually enough for the first few turns, and bringing more doesn't help me solve problems that a Mawloc can. The 30x gants helps reduce the downsides of the swap too, since SL & MO can always launch them to a lightly held objective if they don't have opportune targets nearby. Bonus if you can do a late-game second TftD w/o losing out on VPs, but the opponent has to give it to ya. Fortunately, the Dima/Dule/Exo might be able to distract the big hitters enough to at least give you the option.

[zimko]

I placed 9th of 38 at a GT this past weekend with 3 wins, 1 loss and 1 tie.

Game 1 vs Necrons: I won 88 to 57

HQ
Chronomancer: Entropic Lance, Veil of Darkness
Chronomancer: Entropic Lance
Lord: Res Orb, Staff of Light, Voltaic Staff, Inspiring Aura
Troops
20 Warriors, Gauss Reapers
20 Warriors, Gauss Reapers
10 Immortals, Gauss Blasters
10 Immortals, Gauss Blasters
Elites
10 Lychguard, Sword and Shield
Fast
5 Scarabs
5 Scarabs

The Silent King

This was a player that hasn't played a lot of 9th. Plus his list wasn't that optimal. He won first turn and he made a mistake trying to kill my Exocrine with the Silent King. He missed with his ranged weapons, but making the attempt brought the Silent King within range and line of sight of all my shooting. I fired everything and brought the Silent King to 1 wound. Then the Mawloc finished it off on my turn 2. After that, I just ran circles around him and the Dima ate things uncontested.

Game 2 vs Custodes: Loss 70 to 81
HQ
Shield Captain in Allarus Terminator Armor: Admonimortis, Ballistus, Castellan Axe, Captain-Commander, Indomitable Con, Misericordia, Superior (Who actually knows wth all that stuff is?) Warlord
Shield Captain on Dawneagle Jetbike: All-seeing Annihilator, Auric Aquilas, Interceptor Lance, Misericordia, Salvo Launcher, Ten Thousand Heroes
Troops
5 Custodian Guard: Sentinal Blade, Storm Shield
3 Custodian Guard: Guardian Spear
4 Sagittarum Custodians: Adrastus Bolt Caliver, Misericordia (are these even words?)
Elites
5 Allarus Custodians: Ballistus Grenade Launcher, Castellan Axe
Vexilus Praetor: Spear, Vexilla Magnifica
Fast Attack
4 Vertus Praetors: Interceptor Lance, Salvo Launcher
Heavy Support
Telemon Heavy Dreadnought: Eternal Penitent, Spiculus Bolt Launcher, 2x Telemon Caestus: Twin Plasma Projector

I played very cagey this game. The Dima completely bounced off everything he attacked which prevented me from getting primary points because I was counting on him being able to remove just a few custodians... but when they turn off all my rerolls then he just doesn't do anything. I actually got close to tabling him by the end of the game, but I had so few primary points that I couldn't pull out a win. I took While We Stand We Fight as a secondary and managed to get 15 points with it (I did this for the Necron game too). But alas, 70 points was not enough.


Game 3 vs Drukhari: Tie 71 to 71

Raiding Force 3 Patrols
Kabal of the Black Heart: Thirst for Power
HQ
Archon: Ancient Evil, Huskblade, Overlord, Splinter Pistol, Tolerated Ambition, The Djin Blade
Troops
5 Kabalite Warriors
Elites
7 Incubi Klaive
7 Incubi Klaive
Dedicated Transport
Raider: Chain-snares, Dark Lance, Grisly Trophies, Kabal, Phantasm Grenade Launcher, Shock Prow, Splinter Racks (making this 115 pts, more expensive than the other raiders...)
Raider: Dark Lance, Kabal, Grisly Trophies Phantasm Grenade Launcher
Raider: Dark Lance, Kabal, Grisly Trophies
Raider: Dark Lance, Kabal, Grisly Trophies
Cult of Strife: The Spectacle of Murder
HQ
Succubus: Grave Lotus, Competitive Edge, Dark Lotus Toxin, Razorflails, Warlord, Show Stealer
Succubus: Precision Blows, Tolerated Ambition, The Triptych Whip - Agoniser & Archite Glaive
Troops
9 Bloodbrides
10 Wyches with 1 Hydra Gauntlets (making this unit 115 pts... you'll see in a moment)
10 Wyches
Elites
5 Incubi: Klaive
Fast Attack
3 Reavers w/ 1 Heat Lance
3 Reavers w/ 1 Heat Lance
Dark Technomancer
HQ
Drazhar
Troops
5 Wracks w/ 2 Liquifiers
5 Wracks w/ 2 Liquifiers
5 Wracks w/ 2 Liquifiers
Dedicated Transport
Raider: Coven, Dark Lance, Grisly Trophies
Raider: Coven, Dark Lance, Grisly Trophies
Raider: Coven, Dark Lance, Grisly Trophies

So this army had a gimmick to it. He took While We Stand, We Fight. The souped up Raider and the upgrade wyche squad and Drazhar are the most expensive units, so he puts both Drazhar and the Wyches inside that Raider and starts them on the board, blocked by the other raiders. Then on turn 2, he uses a 1 CP stratagem to put the raider into Strategic Reserves. Since the Raider started on the board, there is no restriction to when it must arrive from Strategic Reserves. So he simply brings it in on the last turn and collects his 15 points, playing the game with 1650 pt army instead of 2000. In this game, he went first. By the end of the game, I still had Hive Guard on one side of the board, and my devgants on the other. So he thought he was safe bringing the raider in outside of Hive Guard range and what he thought was outside of devgant range. Well... I used opportunistic advance, moved those devgants 18 inches, then pumped 90 shots into that raider and killed it, robbing him of 5 pts. Hah. It was a very deadly and strategic game though. I was fine with a tie.


Day 2 and Game 4 vs Drukhari: Win 77 to 76

Raiding Forces
Kabal of the Black Heart: Thirst for Power
HQ
Archon: Overlord, Splintered Genius (Blackheart)
Drazhar
Troops
10 Trueborn w/ 1 Dark Lance and 1 Blaster
5 Warriors w/ 1 Blaster
5 Warriors w/ 1 Blaster
Elites
5 Incubi
5 Incubi
Fast Attack
6 Scourges w/ Shardcarbines and 1 Shredder
6 Scourges w/ Shardcarbines and 1 Blaster
Dedicated Transport
Raider: Bladvanes, Dark Lance, Grisly Trophies, Kabal, Splinter Racks
Raider: Bladevanes, Dark Lance, Grisly Trophies, Kabal
Raider: Bladevanes, Dark Lance, Grisly Trophies, Kabal
Venom: Bladevanes, Kabal, Splinter Cannon, Twin Splinter Rifle
Venom: Bladevanes, Kabal, Splinter Cannon, Twin Splinter Rifle
Venom: Bladevanes, Kabal, Splinter Cannon, Twin Splinter Rifle
Venom: Bladevanes, Kabal, Splinter Cannon, Twin Splinter Rifle
Cult of Strife: The Spectacle of Murder
HQ
Succubus: Adrenalight, Competitive Edge, Dark Lotus Toxin, Razorflails, Warlord, Show Stealer
Troops
10 Bloodbrides w/ 1 Razorflail and 1 Shardnet
6 Wyches
6 Wyches
Fast Attack
5 Hellions
9 Reavers w/ 3 Heat Lances

No gimmicks with this one. It was Hammer and Anvil deployment and he deployed on his back line and spread out to make sure the Dima couldn't get him on turn 1... and just like every game this weekend I did not go first. As a result though, he didn't do any damage to me on turn 1 and I took 'Grind Them Down' as a secondary so I got an easy 3 points on turn 1 when I shot some stuff. But on turn 2 most of his force was mid board. The Dima had a scrum with Drazhar and actually survived but with only 4 wounds left and wiffed hitting Drazhar in return. So instead I just fell back to charge a raider, and filled his prior location with the Mawloc, hitting Drazhar, Incubi and wyches with mortal wounds. After that, the Incubi numbered only 2 models and thus couldn't protect Drazhar, so the Hive Guard split fired and finished off 3 units at once, leaving Mawloc with control of the point. That was the highlight for me. My opponent had his fair share of highlights though as the Flail succubus managed to kill Swarmlord, then proceed to kill Hive Guard on the next turn. In the end it was a very close game but the Barbed Hierodule finished the game off strong for me by removing models from 2 objectives and grabbing late game victory points for both Engage and Grind them down. Without Dark Lances and Incubi, there isn't much Drukhari can do to the Barbed Hierodule.


Game 5 vs Death Guard: Win 88 to 44

Plague Company: Mortarion's Anvil
HQ
Lord Contagion
Malignant Plaguecaster
Troops
10 Poxwalkers
10 Poxwalkers
10 Poxwalkers
Elites
5 Blightlord Terminators
Chaos Contemptor Dreadnought w/ 2x Twin Volkite Culverin
Chaos Contemptor Dreadnought w/ 2x Twin Volkite Culverin
3 Deathshroud Terminators
3 Deathshroud Terminators
Foul Blightspawn
Tallyman
Fast Attack
2 Chaos Spawn
Foetid Bloat-drone
Foetid Bloat-drone
Heavy Support
Plagueburst Crawler
Plagueburst Crawler

This was my easist game of the tournament. The mission was hold 2 for 5 and hold 3 for 10 (everyone hates these missions, it was the only one of the tournament). But for me it made this game easy with Dawn of War deployment and 6 very spread out objectives. We both took While We Stand (his were the 2 PBCs and the Blightlords. The Blightlords started in reserve). He only scored 5 primary points on 3 turns for total of 15 points while I scored 45. Also, my Dima was able to kill 1 PBC and my Hive Guard killed the Blightlords after they arrived, robbing him of another 10 points. While I only lost the Swarmlord for my While We Stand. I also managed to make a 9" charge with Rippers onto the other PBC to silence it's guns for a turn. So he just couldn't reach my Barbed Hierodule or Hive Guard. I didn't kill much of his army and I didn't need to. I just played to the objectives and got 88 pts.


So not a bad showing. I loved the Barbed Hierodule and every opponent agreed that it was a strong unit. I did not miss the 2nd Dima at all. One is good enough, especially with terrain that can't hide them. The Barbed Hierodule has a low enough profile that it can hide behind 1 story ruins with no windows. I took While We Stand, We Fight in 3 games and scored 15, 15 and 10 with it. The Barbed Hierodule survived in every game except in the Drukhari game where I tied. It puts out constant damage and can even pick up a vehicle in melee if one gets close enough (it killed a venom in melee on game 4).

The Mawloc was very hit or miss. Yeah it finished off the Silent King in game 1... but I could have easily done that with a couple shots from Hive Guard split firing too. Ya it killed some Incubi and put some mortal wounds on Drazhar in Game 4... but all those things were overkilled by hive guard after that anyway. He DID give me Engage points, I'll grant him that. But he also gave up Bring It Down points fairly easily. I think for the future I'll replace him with 20 Hormagaunts. I had trouble in a couple games providing the Hive Guard with a proper screen. The 2 units of 10 Hormagaunts that I currently have in the list were too few to effectively screen them from melee and zone out deep strikers AND hold objectives. A unit of 20 would be a nice bonus to my onboard presence.

The ranged damage output of this list was fantastic. Every game felt like I could dish out as much or more damage than my opponents and if the games had continued then I would have tabled them. There were certainly lists in the tournament like Admech and Knights where I'd probably get tabled, but every tournament requires some luck. All I can hope to do is build a TAC list that can compete against as much of the meta as possible.

The Broodlord was also an excellent choice. In the Drukhari matches, he killed a Raider in both games, while also smiting the occasional wyche or incubi. He always died by the end but not before doing significant damage and providing Onslaught on turn 1 where it's needed.

[piersonsmuppet]

Did the Mawloc have a hand in keeping the Dule alive most games? Probably a difficult metric to consider, but I'm curious if the Mawloc was able to absorb some shots that could have cost you the Dule's WWSWF in the other two games. Likely won't change your need for 20 gaunts vice the Mawloc though based on your match descriptions.

[zimko]

Not in these games, no. Most of the time, the mawloc died to melee that would not have reached the Barbed Hierodule anyway. He was barely a speed bump for Drukhari and Custodes. For Death Guard, my opponent took 'Bring Them Down' so I didn't suicide the Mawloc. I instead just kept him on an objective and out of LOS, same job any unit could do.

[zimko]

I am now considering dropping the Exocrine and Mawloc for 10 Hormagaunts and a Dima. This would put me back at 2 Dimas, while still keeping the Barbed Hierodule and a 3rd unit of Hormagaunts.

[kwisatzhaderach]

Apr 26, 2021 17:57:50 GMT zimko said:

I am now considering dropping the Exocrine and Mawloc for 10 Hormagaunts and a Dima. This would put me back at 2 Dimas, while still keeping the Barbed Hierodule and a 3rd unit of Hormagaunts.

Curious as to what caused you to change your opinion on the 2nd Dima? You seemed to be pretty down on it in this thread and a couple others. Is it a meta call?
I feel like I'd want more ranged weapons against Drukhari, or at the very least, maybe a Scythed Hierodule for a mixture of ranged attacks and close combat. Although granted you did do well against them both times you faced them. 

[zimko]

I suppose it was more that the Exocrine is underperforming for me.

Strength 7 ranged weapons aren't in a great place. Most targets are T7, T8 or T4 or T3. The difference between the Exocrine's shooting of Strength 7 vs the Barbed Hierodule's shooting of Strength 8 is quite significant vs T4, 7 and 8. The additional AP is also mostly irrelevant. Drukhari vehicles have a 4+ armor and 6+ invul, so AP 2 and 3 are the same. And most other vehicles you see have 3+ armor and 5+ invul or better. Custodes often have 1+ armor and 3+ invul or 2+/4+. The point is, AP -3 gains us very little.

In addition to all of that, the Exocrine requires a CP every turn you want to move it, and I usually have to move him every turn to get in LOS of something due to the heavy use of obscuring terrain on our tables. He also has no melee to speak of. It's only redeeming quality is that it is only 170 points.

For this tournament, all of the usual meta chasers were playing Drukhari, and Drukhari don't trade well into a Dima. I expect Drukhari to remain popular, so that's another positive for the Dima. I am worried about Admech and Custodes though. Custodes can turn off our rerolls, making the Dima useless. But, if I charge 2 different units, he can only turn off rerolls for one of them. Admech however can just shoot the Dimas to death. I don't know what to do about Admech. I feel like I just lose to them no matter what I take so why should I bother trying to build for them? I just hope I don't get paired against them, and they lose to someone else.

A scythed Hierodule would be a decent option except I don't have a spare adaptation to give it. Without a 5+ invul save and double wounds for degredation, I'm not confident it can do what it needs to do. A Dima comes stock with a 5+ invul. And the Hive Guard without enhanced resistance would be highly vulnerable to LOS ignoring attacks.

[kazetanade]

Apr 26, 2021 17:57:50 GMT zimko said:

I am now considering dropping the Exocrine and Mawloc for 10 Hormagaunts and a Dima. This would put me back at 2 Dimas, while still keeping the Barbed Hierodule and a 3rd unit of Hormagaunts.

Do you find Barbed + HG to be enough guns? I think that's generally the same as HG + Exo, so you're back to Lennon's level of ranged damage - which is enough to take out something specific on demand, but not enough for general damage on the enemy's army (for eg: the combined damage would be enough to take out 2 raiders and possibly injure one of their contents, but not enough to take out 3 raiders and defang the army.  Also I prefer having access to S7 ap-3 when I already have a S8 ap-2 gun on hand. 

Theorycrafting puts it at minimum 3 major melee threats - any less and it's not impactful, any more and it takes away too much from the rest of the list. Having 2 melee threats to reduce Swarmy's "sunk" cost and keep enemies on their back toes for a few turns in a row, on the top of my head, sounds like a pretty good plan, and it's helpful that Swarmy himself gives you the option for either melee wrenching or just psychic scoring shenanigans. The catch and potential downfall is that we're slowly moving away from an elite army meta - I think there will eventually start to be less big bulky elite units, and more MSU/trade units that the Dima and Flyrants just cant trade well into.

What are the current items that Flyrants and Dimachaerons are expected to trade into? Well, it's likely:

- Big Terminator/BGV blobs (which they wont kill without Fight Twice and probably still cant after Fight Twice due to the incredible power of Transhuman 4++ 6+++ free revive!)
- Centurion or Attack Bikes, that may or may not have an invul due to Fortress / Azazel, that averages around 250 (for fair trade) to 150 (for below average trade).  
- DG Terminator blocks, which you trade into almost extremely well and with great returns
- Monster Mash list concepts, that are either 170+ points for a nearly equal trade
- Dreadnoughts, which are usually 150+ points for a below average trade
- Magnus/Morty lists which feature jam all rerolls or 3++. Havent done the math, but mentally that's a really bad trade cuz you dont absorb the counterblow damage. 
- DE Raiders or Wyches, Incubi, and Grotesques, which only the Grotesques trade well for you due to how cheap everything else is and how expensive the Dima is. It doesnt help that Incubi with Drazhar trade into Dimachaerons really well, pretty much almost insta-killing it in a single fight phase if not outright killing it. I had 2 units and Drazhar engage the Silent King - the Silent King took 16 or 18 wounds off the first incubi unit's fighting (killing off the Menhirs and leaving him on 6W or 4W left) and almost died to Drazhar who actually wiffed his hard.
- Sisters Tanks/Transports, which trade a bit poorly unless melta girls are exposed, melta girls, which trade poorly but are strategically a high importance kill, and Mortifiers which... IIRC trade equal, so not too bad. 
- Silent King, which could potentially be a great trade, or a potentially horrible one depending on how hot his rolls are, and his Silver Tide which is REALLY bad trade off. 
- Triple C'tans, which is REALLY bad trade off most of the time. 
- Canoptek Obsec, which you sort of can work into cuz they cant really kill you either. 
- AdMech Dogs (which are not chargeable) and Breachers/Baymaxes, which you can get a pretty acceptable trade on with Fight Twice + assuming you survive overwatch...
- Some wacky Eldar play with undercosted machines and thick invuls, which you bounce off of because invuls. 
- Either Ork Buggies, which they will trade FANTASTIC into due to not being able to be killed while killing a fair bit of theirs, or mass Ork Boyz, which it trades horribly into. 
EDIT: - YES, CUSTODES THAT TURN OFF REROLLS, AND HAVE T8, AND HAVE INNATE 4++, THAT ALSO HIT LIKE A TRUCK IN MELEE. I dont know how well the Dima would trade into that, but off the top of my head, it trades into Custodes relatively horribly in that it'll secure it's kill, or just miss it, and quite possibly die to the swing back. 
Just off the top of my head, the numbers and potential styles of meta lists coming out support Behemoth Genestealers with +1 to wound on them - the weight of attacks works beautifully with a 4+ or 3+ to wound without rerolls, going straight into invuls most of the time, and allows it to assault into both medium sized and infantry sized threats whether its multiple Wyches squads, Primaris and Terminators, mass Warriors, or MSU. Toxin Sacs would make them extremely potent all-rounders. Now they just need to not cost an arm and a leg and half my liver and my kidney to actually field in game... 

---------------------------------------------------------
*just quick maths:

20 guys, 80A. 2+ to hit with BL, that's 67 hits. 4+ to wound, that's 33 wounds. 4++, that's 16 unsaved. Toxin Sacs included, that's 10 unsaved with 2D, meaning it will kill all kinds of elites with relative ease. 

The issue? No Rerolls is a huge gamble. I've taken the gamble on T8, 5+ to wound before; and it was atrocious. SO the way I look at it, having the options for both (Dimachaeron for a big target if required, and Genestealers for medium targets) is very compelling and makes it a potentially viable way forward. 

The other issue? Behemoth has potentially (please do not swear) advance rolls, meaning you go nowhere. 

The last issue? Cost. The points on that unit will be the most glass cannon thing in the game, without guaranteed results. It's like Zephyrim I think but not as reliable, which is a huge toss up on viability. 
---------------------------------------------------------

Anyway digressing, I also agree with your earlier sentiments that 2 Dima's are not the way forward - 1 is probably the max you'd want unless your meta does not shift much at all, or goes really vehicle heavy. Assuming you still want to drop the Exo and the Mawloc for 270 points, I would shift everything into Kraken (you lose Symbiostorm and reroll 1s for the HG; you dont really lose anything else since the Heirodule is a great unit for mixed damage phases, and nothing gets into range to Shadow the warptime plays anyway and all other psychic plays barring Doom/Jinx combo are possible to play around), and get into GSC to tech into some of the counterplay. It counters crazy T1 rushes from DE/RG/WS/BA (although the last 3 I dont value as highly as before), you can use the  smaller or medium melee/shooting drops against weak flanks or trades without losing much (getting much better trades overall, basically), gives you access to the very lovable Gunslinger for flex plays on exposed characters/armies without Auspex, the snipers if you want to tech into that for whatever reason. Also gives you the very great Lying In Wait which makes objective sitting quite a chore for the opponent in most cases (best strategem in GSC IMO), as well as the previously dread Rusted Claw Suicide Squad (which might cost too much cp now to justify its existence, but it exists). Finally, it gives you fairly flexible and nontrivial firepower that are on parr with Exocrenes (but sadly worse than IG Demo Cannons) with mobility you can make use of.  

[zimko]

Every time I look at GSC, it's too expensive for what it does. I'm already dropping the Exocrine, to then also drop reroll 1s and symbiostorm would be a much more significant decrease in ranged firepower, to the point where I may only kill 1.5 raiders in a turn thanks to lightning fast reflexes. The Dima traded very well into Drukhari. He always picked up 2 transports. He then was charged by lots of stuff, and either fought as he died to pick up more stuff, or survived to continue causing havoc. An Exocrine barely picks up 1 transport if my rolls are ok and my opponent fails his invul saves (5+ on a raider from ranged).

I was hating on the 2nd Dima before because I was being too aggressive with them, and drukhari didn't have their new codex. I've played 6 games against drukhari since the codex and the Dima always performs above his cost. So I'm reconsidering my position on the 2nd Dima.

[kazetanade]

That's a bit of a surprise to me, but a welcomed one. My first taste of Drukhari was so brutal - I lost 20 Warriors and SK in a single Fight phase without any Fight Twice, with the other 20 warriors locked in combat basically ending my game on T2.

My second experience was 13 Flamers just tearing through whatever they'd look at. 35 shots of 4+, ap-2, 2D is over 20 damage, so it just dies outright without any fnp to mitigate it.

Based on that exp I actually expect a Dima to perform badly into Drukhari because why would you not have Drazhar and at least 5 incubi? To spare and just mutalize it. BUT IN ALL FAIRNESS. I didn't consider any FNPs at all which does change the maths pretty drastically.

Also surprised that the Dima picks up TWO transports. And he isn't just weaving past it to get at other important stuff. Cult of Strife has 2 separate fall backs and charges, so he can just ignore it and go after your HG and Barbed who don't appreciate the attention.

I've got a potential flier problem so I have to swap out one Dima for a Flyrant, and as far as I am concerned, they are interchangeable. But assuming the shooting doesn't hold up (my table meta has many firing lanes down centre - I'm more likely to get clear shots on anything going for or planning to grab objectives, so I focus shooting to clear those), I'd definitely love to try putting in the 2nd Dima with the melyrant and just going full on aggression trading.




Edit: Symbiostorm is gone the moment they Lightning Reflex, and my meta uses Dense way more than Obscured. I often have to go through -1 to hit and end up only having rr1s to hit, which at that point don't do a great job of increasing damage output for the unit and don't justify it being in Kronos for literally just the HG. But if yours is mostly obscured and very little Dense, it makes more sense.

[zimko]

So here's how my games against Drukhari have gone so far:

5 or 6 raiders packed with murder machines. If it's Dawn of War, they'll deploy clustered behind some obscuring terrain to avoid direct fire. If it's the other deployments, they deploy really far back to avoid my charge (I also deploy my Dima really far back). In almost every game, they go first. Their dark lances do some damage but not enough to degrade anything because he can't bring all his dark lances to bear on the same target due to how spread out the raiders are. He moves to midfield objectives and sends in reavers on a suicide mission to achieve engage on all fronts and kill 10 hormagaunts.

On my turn, I launch the Dima and charge 2 transports, killing both by splitting my attacks and rerolling hits and wounds. I kill at least 1 more transport with my shooting.

Then on his turn, Drazhar and incubi charge the Dima. 5 out of 6 games this has happened and the Dima died. I then paid 2 CP to fight before I go down and killed Drazhar. In 1 game, my Dima actually survived thanks to good Catalyst rolls. In that game, I fought back, killed Drazhar, then on my turn fell back and killed yet another raider before being shot to death.

So ya, I'd say he's been highly effective.

The flamers you speak of, liquifiers, are indeed a major concern. So far I've avoided them because my opponents only had a couple squads of wracks. But as long as I kill their transport, then I feel confident I can kill the wracks/grotesques with Hive Guard.

[kazetanade]

Just FYI, Dima IS NOT A CHARACTER, and cannot Fight On Death. You need a Melyrant/BL for that, and I'm not sure how confident I am in 5A 4+ to hit rr1s...

Note also that any melee strategy vs DE is susceptible to a ld check for "are you forced to fight last even if you charged" against melee units. Wyches and Incubi, iirc. Wyches your Dima will handle just fine - the Incubi need to be shot at with extreme prejudice lol.

I also don't know why is he taking EoAF and sacrificing Reavers (oh god the madness with them) when he has Herd The Prey...

Other than that sounds legit.

[zimko]

Huh, I thought it was character or monsters but you're right, dima can't fight on death. Well, it gets the Incubi out of their transports either way so they can be shot.

That guy also said Drazhar was -1 to hit and I learned later that he's -1 damage... BIG difference with a Dima, lol.

[zimko]

I have the Maryland Open (Major) this month. So here's the updated list.

Kraken Battalion
- Broodlord: Res Barb, Onslaught, Warlord
- The Swarmlord: Catalyst, Paroxysm
- Hormagaunts x10
- Hormagaunts x10
- Hormagaunts x10
- Termagants x30 w/ Devourers
- Lictor
- Lictor
- Dimachaeron
- Dimachaeron

Kronos Patrol
- Neurothrope: Symbiostorm
- Ripper Swarms x3
- Hive Guard x6: Enhanced Resistance
- Barbed Hierodule: Dermic Symbiosis

I'm bringing back the double Dima. But I am considering dropping 1 Dima for 30 more Devgants. For now, I think there will be a strong marine presence at the Open so I want Dimas. If the meta shifts to hoards to try and counter Drukhari, then I may switch to double Devgants. But for now I think I'm still expecting to see elite armies.