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Post by Kyokii on Mar 25, 2021 20:31:16 GMT
UPDATE, THE GAME WAS PLAYED AND HERE IS THE STREAM I may type up, but I'm also lazy. youtu.be/cvdpsEIwjhsHey hive, I'm going to play in a tournament in a couple weeks and decided "let's bring a hierophant" but, I may need some help refining everything around it. I'm aware at how suboptimal this plan is, I'm not even taking a Kronos detach- think of it as an exercise in game tactics. So far I have the following list: ++ Super-Heavy Auxiliary Detachment -3CP (Tyranids) [43 PL, -3CP, 850pts] +++ Configuration +Detachment Command Cost [-3CP]Hive Fleet: Kraken Hierophant [43 PL, 850pts]. Adaptive Physiology: Murderous Size - lash whip pods ++ Battalion Detachment 0CP (Tyranids) [60 PL, 11CP, 1,147pts] ++Hive Fleet: Kraken + Stratagems +Progeny of the Hive [-1CP]+ HQ +Hive Tyrant [11 PL, 210pts]: Monstrous Rending Claws, Power: Onslaught, Power: Psychic Scream, Resonance Barb, Toxin Sacs, Two Devourers with Brainleech Worms, Warlord, Wings Neurothrope [5 PL, 95pts]: Power: Catalyst + Troops + Hormagaunts x25 [9 PL, 150pts]. 25x Hormagaunt: 25x Scything Talons Hormagaunts x10 [3 PL, 60pts]. 10x Hormagaunt: 10x Scything Talons Termagants x20, devourers[6 PL, 140pts]+ elites + Hive Guard x5, impaler cannons [12 PL, 225pts]Lictor [2 PL, 37pts] + Fast Attack + Dimachaeron [12 PL, 230pts]. Adaptive Physiology: Accelerated Digestion ++ Total: [103 PL, 8CP, 1,997pts] ++ The lack of Kronos detachment is my monocolored army, not wanting to spend yet more co on another detachment, and I am unsure if I would be able to fit it given the constraint of a hierophant Plus, the phant has some hard hitting guns on its own. Though, wouldn't be hard to convince me to change that up (it could even fit by taking out the Macaroon and moving stuff around) |
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Post by Kyokii on Mar 25, 2021 20:38:28 GMT
Current plans : devgants in the phant turn 1 to keep safe, then dump out, move, clear screens with the option of reserving them for the lictor pregame if needed
Murderous size on lash whip pods. Making them s6, - 2,D2 to hit the likely plethora of space marines I'm going to deal with (hampered by being absolutely gigantic and limited in mobility, but where it sits will be mine)
Usual guff with moving hormies around to disrupt movement, take obje tives fast, deploy scramblers, etc. The phant will fill the exocrine roll of lobbing harsh damage down range. I haven't done any math but I'm sure this is no where near as efficient but 16 shots is good for something, in sure.
More I think on it, the better an idea it might be to bite the bullet and take a Kronos patrol, make the phant Kronos to slap symbiostorm onto it when applicable
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Post by piersonsmuppet on Mar 26, 2021 0:01:00 GMT
If you go Kronos, I think 9 warriors + prime would be better use of the transport capability than 20 gants. Gives you one more decent symbiostorm target that is also more effective against different targets than the HG/phant.
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Post by Kyokii on Mar 27, 2021 0:00:50 GMT
If you go Kronos, I think 9 warriors + prime would be better use of the transport capability than 20 gants. Gives you one more decent symbiostorm target that is also more effective against different targets than the HG/phant. Maybe, though that's even more points pushed into the phant and not out tagging objectives or slowing my opponents' movement. Plus an hq slot, I'm not a fan of the prime unless there are a nonsense number of warriors, personally. |
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Post by piersonsmuppet on Mar 28, 2021 2:21:25 GMT
If you go Kronos, I think 9 warriors + prime would be better use of the transport capability than 20 gants. Gives you one more decent symbiostorm target that is also more effective against different targets than the HG/phant. Maybe, though that's even more points pushed into the phant and not out tagging objectives or slowing my opponents' movement. Plus an hq slot, I'm not a fan of the prime unless there are a nonsense number of warriors, personally. Normally I would agree, and even advocate for never taking a prime because I value our psyker HQ's so much more. However, a Hierophant changes the norm quite drastically. First, normally you would need at least 2 units of warriors to make sure that the alpha buffed enough units to be worth the points due to losses from finally getting into range. With the Hierophant, you can guarantee that the prime buffs enough units that he is worth more than his points. Second, if you need to hit units which Deathspitters or Devourers would be better against than the HG/Phant, the prime doubles in points efficiency due to Symbiostorm. The warriors have a statistically effective 100% hit rate (.667 from 3+, .333 from Symbio hits at 5+, and improves in subsequent turns they don't move) when Symbio'd w/ a prime. The only time I can think that gants can marginally outdue the warriors in offensive output is against T3 or T4 w/ invul == armor. Gants come with the downside of possibly having to deal with morale (with only HT and Neuro in your list, I'd say more often that not they'd be out of synapse), and that is a big downside considering how important the morale phase is in competitive play. Granted you can use extreme bravery, but Tyranids don't need bravery! I actually was really interested in toying around with building a list including the Hierophant from your post (prob will never own one, so just an enjoyable brain exercise), and found the below list would be what I would try competitively. Really wanted to force the opponent's anti-tank into only being able to deal with the Phant, and make it as painful as possible w/ the addition of the Maleceptor (bonus points to making the warriors more resilient if needed). Can probably drop the BL & a ripper for a Neuro and boosting one of the guant units to 21 (since your initial list had a 25x unit), but I've found 10 works better due to blast mechanics. I can only see needing more than 10 if your terrain is far enough away that more are needed to block the opp's movement. Alternatively could add another 10x gaunt unit, but my sweet spot has been 2x gaunt/2x rippers. ++ Super-Heavy Auxiliary Detachment -3CP (Tyranids) [43 PL, -4CP, 850pts] +++ Configuration +Detachment Command Cost [-3CP]Hive Fleet: Kronos + Stratagems +Progeny of the Hive [-1CP]+ Lord of War +Hierophant [43 PL, 850pts]. . Adaptive Physiology: Dermic Symbiosis ++ Battalion Detachment 0CP (Tyranids) [59 PL, 12CP, 1,149pts] +++ Configuration +Battle Size [12CP]: 3. Strike Force (101-200 Total PL / 1001-2000 Points) Detachment Command CostHive Fleet: Kronos + HQ +Broodlord [7 PL, 125pts]: Power: Smite, Power: Symbiostorm, Resonance Barb, Warlord Tyranid Prime [5 PL, 84pts]: Boneswords, Deathspitter + Troops +Hormagaunts [3 PL, 60pts]. . 10x Hormagaunt: 10x Scything Talons Hormagaunts [3 PL, 60pts]. . 10x Hormagaunt: 10x Scything Talons Ripper Swarms [2 PL, 36pts]. . 3x Ripper Swarm: 3x Claws and Teeth Ripper Swarms [2 PL, 36pts]. . 3x Ripper Swarm: 3x Claws and Teeth Tyranid Warriors [12 PL, 234pts]. . Adaptive Physiology: Enhanced Resistance . . Tyranid Warrior: Deathspitter, Lash Whip and Bonesword . . Tyranid Warrior: Deathspitter, Lash Whip and Bonesword . . Tyranid Warrior: Deathspitter, Lash Whip and Bonesword . . Tyranid Warrior: Deathspitter, Lash Whip and Bonesword . . Tyranid Warrior: Deathspitter, Lash Whip and Bonesword . . Tyranid Warrior: Deathspitter, Lash Whip and Bonesword . . Tyranid Warrior: Deathspitter, Lash Whip and Bonesword . . Tyranid Warrior: Deathspitter, Lash Whip and Bonesword . . Tyranid Warrior: Deathspitter, Lash Whip and Bonesword + Elites +Hive Guard [12 PL, 270pts]. . 6x Hive Guard (Impaler): 6x Impaler Cannon Lictor [2 PL, 37pts]Lictor [2 PL, 37pts]Maleceptor [9 PL, 170pts]: Power: Catalyst, Power: Smite Note: I think movement problems you mentioned might make monstrous strength on the Phant less useful than staying at 3+ BS/WS until 8 wounds left w/ Dermic. If you go second and include a Maleceptor, it would take +/- 20 Lascannons to finally drop it down on the damage table. That should almost guarantee you at least one turn with 10" M and 3+ hits, and catalyst can possibly extend that to 2+. They could try to target the Maleceptor instead, but at least it can probably hide it turn 1. Dermic also has the bonus of making the rapid regen stratagem much more likely to bump it back up to a higher damage table. The loss of monstrous strength is also hurt less by the fact that the Phant has the Monster keyword, and can pathogenic slime if a 2+W MEQ unit NEEDS to be dead. I had a lot of fun making this list, and it almost makes me want to by a Hierophant to play.....almost. I'm sure it clashes with your original idea quite a bit, but hopefully a different opinion helps in some way! |
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Post by Kyokii on Mar 28, 2021 3:46:11 GMT
Helpful, but I don't own a maleceptor so. I won't be able to hit this game plan. Interesting point with the dermic, I forget about the double wound thing with it.
I'd still drop the prime, but you make a good point of forcing opponents into lobbing their efficient shooting into a massive and less efficient target.
I own a phant and haven't fielded it in a couple years. Plus, this tournament is going onto a live stream, so why not flex and lose with style?
Maybe venomthropes instead of the Maleceptor? Not the same, but I own some and could field them
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Post by piersonsmuppet on Mar 28, 2021 4:30:58 GMT
Helpful, but I don't own a maleceptor so. I won't be able to hit this game plan. Interesting point with the dermic, I forget about the double wound thing with it. I'd still drop the prime, but you make a good point of forcing opponents into lobbing their efficient shooting into a massive and less efficient target. I own a phant and haven't fielded it in a couple years. Plus, this tournament is going onto a live stream, so why not flex and lose with style? Maybe venomthropes instead of the Maleceptor? Not the same, but I own some and could field them That would roughly achieve the same goal, and would help make room to upgrade the prime to a different HQ. I think you only lose out on when a Maleceptor could further buff warriors in dense cover, and that Venoms could be targeted with different profile weapons making T2+ Phant survival less likely. Could have given you some flexibility based on your meta/terrain, but moot since you don't own the model. I'm definitely curious to see what you end up taking and how it goes! |
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Post by Kyokii on Mar 31, 2021 19:19:47 GMT
I tweaked the list a fair bit and played a couple test games yesterday.
++ Super-Heavy Auxiliary Detachment -3CP
Hive Fleet: Kronos
+ Lord of War +
Hierophant [43 PL, 850pts]
. Adaptive Physiology: Dermic Symbiosis
++ Battalion Detachment ++
Hive Fleet: Kronos
+ Stratagems +
Progeny of the Hive [-1CP]
+ HQ +
Neurothrope [5 PL, 95pts]: Power: Smite, Power: Symbiostorm, Resonance Barb, Warlord
The Swarmlord [14 PL, 270pts]: Power: Catalyst, Power: The Horror
+ Troops +
Hormagaunts [6 PL, 120pts] 20x
Hormagaunts [6 PL, 72pts] 12x
Ripper Swarms [2 PL, 36pts] 3x Ripper Swarm
Tyranid Warriors [12 PL, 258pts]
. Adaptive Physiology: Enhanced Resistance
6x deathspitters, 3x venom cannons, 8 lw/bs, 1 rending claw
+ Elites +
Hive Guard [12 PL, 225pts] 5x Impaler Cannon
Lictor [2 PL, 37pts]
Lictor [2 PL, 37pts]
++ Total: [104 PL, 8CP, 2,000pts] ++
Played two practice games yesterday. One against Necrons, other against Custodes.
VS. Necrons: Silent king, void dragon, lychbomb, warriors, a couple things I forget. I went first. Which meant the hierophant was able to charge into the necron warriors on turn 1 thanks to Swarmy. The phant was able to tank almost two turns of near army wide shooting and combat, it killed the silent king, and the toxic ability is surprisingly strong with its base size. Final score Tyranids 68, Necrons 30
Custodes I somehow remember less of. - 1 banner, Trajan, jetbike boss guy, jet bikes, telemon, terminators were the big hitters,
I went first again, and we made the mistake of the tangle grenade working on hierophant (doesn't, at the phant has fly) but it tanked until turn 3, killing the telemon, jet bike boss guy, and half of fthe jet bikes.
Things sorta snowballed from there, though. Game ended Tyranids 66, Custodes 65. I had a single hormagants remaining.
Overall, I am not sure on the warriors. They did more against Custodes but folded. Like wet paper due to being a bad match up and absolute ass on my rolls.
VS Necrons they finished off void dragon, held objectives. And tanked a lot of shooting with the adaptation. But, I don't know how worth it they are. For the same cost I can take two of a 20 and 12 count devgant brood. More. Wounds, more shots, less quality hut I don't know if that will matter at that volume. Plus, it's a bit moore coverage to protect against the main weakness of deepstriking into my back lines as the primary damage comes from the hierophant. Swiftly followed by the hive guard.
Warriors can be pretty tanky, but am I tying too many points up into the unit? I'm already taking the BDE of the hierophant, so it makes me concerned.
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Post by Kyokii on Mar 31, 2021 22:07:45 GMT
I could adjust the troops to be an 8-man of warriors, two venom cannons and 6 spitters
2x10 hormagant
1x20 devgants
I might be too laser focused on this, I dunno.
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Post by piersonsmuppet on Apr 1, 2021 15:24:54 GMT
I'm pretty biased towards warriors atm, the durability they bring to claiming an obj has been very impactful for me. I routinely use 20/30 DevGants, but they are in the list since my main opponent is a dread fan and I don't like guns on non-prime backed warriors (too low volume w/ 4+ for my taste). The DevGants need some support to do anything past the turn they enter, so "only" 140pts is a little misleading imo. They also need SMA most of the time to clear an obj, but the variance of DevGants makes that a rougher use of CP vice using it w/ the other guns. If the Phant could fit 30 gants, I would be much more behind completely cutting the warriors for DevGants, as 30 is worlds different from 20.
The latest option could fix some of your issues, but I would drop the DSs for a 9th war w/ venom if you find yourself putting the gants in the Phant more often than not. Another option could be to go harder into gants w/ 2x20 DevGants. W/ one in the Phant & one in strategic reserves, you get much more firepower and resilience over the warriors for only a few more points. Troops would look like:
2x10 gaunts
1x3 ripper
2x20 DevGants
You would have 50pts to spare to either max the HG or play with ripper/gaunt amounts. If going this option, it could benefit to switch to Jorm to hit DevGant targets w/ Lurking Maws. Kronos really only seems to boost HG since you've been slinging the Phant (love that little tweek from the original list), and both are okay targets for Symbiostorm w/o a +1 to-hit (forests can negate the spell, so very dependent on terrain). Jorm would make the Phant a little more resilient to non AP-3 fire (probably helpful in the Necron game due to army-wide fire), and the HG would become a tougher nut to crack in the back with a 3+ and Enhanced Resistance. Can also choose to scratch the ER on HG to take the Jorm WL trait, making the DevGants surprisingly good shooting for the pts. Definitely would give additional options to using SMA as opposed to only HG.
Kronos 20 DevGants on entering:
GEQ: 15.61 (11.7 in light cover)
MEQ: 5.80 (2.91 in light cover)
TEQ: 2.91
Jorm 20 DevGants on entering LM & WL:
GEQ: 23.41 (17.55 w/o WL & in light cover)
MEQ: 8.69 (4.36 w/o WL & in light cover)
TEQ: 4.36
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Post by Kyokii on Apr 1, 2021 17:58:32 GMT
I'm pretty biased towards warriors atm, the durability they bring to claiming an obj has been very impactful for me. I routinely use 20/30 DevGants, but they are in the list since my main opponent is a dread fan and I don't like guns on non-prime backed warriors (too low volume w/ 4+ for my taste). The DevGants need some support to do anything past the turn they enter, so "only" 140pts is a little misleading imo. They also need SMA most of the time to clear an obj, but the variance of DevGants makes that a rougher use of CP vice using it w/ the other guns. If the Phant could fit 30 gants, I would be much more behind completely cutting the warriors for DevGants, as 30 is worlds different from 20. The latest option could fix some of your issues, but I would drop the DSs for a 9th war w/ venom if you find yourself putting the gants in the Phant more often than not. Another option could be to go harder into gants w/ 2x20 DevGants. W/ one in the Phant & one in strategic reserves, you get much more firepower and resilience over the warriors for only a few more points. Troops would look like: 2x10 gaunts 1x3 ripper 2x20 DevGants You would have 50pts to spare to either max the HG or play with ripper/gaunt amounts. With warriors I think my problem is they keep ending up in a bad match up, but last night put more perspective into things. I'm definitely overthinking Played a third game, this time vs Harlequins and won 74 to 50. We both made a few tactic errors, but the phant lasted to turn 4, so that's cool, the warriors ate two squads of the melta. Pistol guys without fully going down, and blocked a solitaire from reaching my hive guard. I put the big hormies into the phant to save double move from Slord for himself, the phant, or the warriors and it paid off. However, I think I'm going with the above. Dropping a ripper base, a warrior, 10 horma and taking 20 devgants. If the phant could hold 30 I would absolutely take that many, and I think there will be games that warriors inside will be the better move. I would drop the spitters, but I'm going wysiwyg and don't have the time to redo those weapons (sadly, they ain't magnetized). I have 40 devgants, so it's still an option, but I feel I will need more starting board presence. With Symbiostorm, the spitters and vc improve by having a prime nearby, so I might try that out some time. But, I'm taking the hierophant cause I said I would and now I can't stop. It's a massive point sink, and so far 3 separate armies have struggled to deal with it because of its saves, wounds, and absolute size. If I can keep forcing my opponents to make bad decisions, I think I can pull off a few wins. Thanks, Pierson. You helped me parse out my thoughts and you make a lot of good points. I have to submit my list by tonight, so I will mull over the number of devgants a bit more. The just gants and rippers could be fun, too. And at this point I might just be splitting hairs and should go with what might be more fun |
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Post by piersonsmuppet on Apr 1, 2021 18:21:15 GMT
Splitting hairs is half the fun!!! Though I always opt for the fun while playing over a fun-by-winning-a-tournament mentality (granted much of my fun is from taking a non-tier optimized thing, and ruining some net-list/deck top-tier tourney crusher hopeful's chances at #1). Hopefully what you finally decide on plays well and fun, and also gives you a placement you can be happy with.
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Post by Kyokii on Apr 1, 2021 18:43:53 GMT
I'd be happy with anything above last place lol, I don't do tournaments very often and, well, I'm taking an 850 pt model because I don't know if it has ever been used in a tournament. And, it'll be on a live stream so I can show off having a definitelyrealnotatallfromrussia hierophant.
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Post by Kyokii on Apr 1, 2021 23:40:10 GMT
Alright, final list has been submitted, and it is the following: Kronos superheavy aux -hierophant: dermic symbiosis Kronos Battallion -Neurothrope: warlord resonance barb, symbiostorm -Swarmlord Troops -Hormagants x10 -Hormagants x18 -rippers x3 -termagants w/ devourers. 2x20 Elites -hive guard x5, enhanced resistance -lictor 2x1 I decided I wanted to flood the board and have a good time. The body count will block movement and hostile deep striking, I have heavy hitting firepower and melee in the slord, hive guard, And hierophant. I have screen clearing in the gants and hierophant, the rippers and lictor for the usual scramblers and engage shenanigans. With this many wounds I think I can grind out a few wins despite being so squishy, plus the mid tier damage stuff is wasted on the gants and ineffecient against the hierophant's intense girth. A big big monster surrounded by a flood of gribblies, some even pouring it of the big guy itself. I think it will look cool on the table, be fun to play, and effective in its goals. I'm not being the most efficient with my points, but that just means my wins will be more on having better tactics than my opponents.  |
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Post by beetlejuice on Apr 2, 2021 5:04:19 GMT
Impressive looking army, especially the ’phant! Loving this concept and I think it might have some legs. Best of luck!
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