Harpy Sonic Screech vs Foul Blightspawn Revolting Stench Vat

[newnid]

Question: Does revolting stench vats shut down sonic screech?

I was originally thinking Sonic screech bypassed Revolting Stench vats because it deals with unit eligibility rather than fight order. But then units in range of Revolting Stench Vats "never count as having made a charge move" which looks to be a condition in Sonic screech.

So does revolting stench vats shut down sonic screech?

[hivefleetkerrigan]

Mind posting the excerpts from both rules? I don't know revolting stench cats or where to look it up.

[purestrain]

Mar 9, 2021 16:47:35 GMT newnid said:

Question: Does revolting stench vats shut down sonic screech?

I was originally thinking Sonic screech bypassed Revolting Stench vats because it deals with unit eligibility rather than fight order. But then units in range of Revolting Stench Vats "never count as having made a charge move" which looks to be a condition in Sonic screech.

So does revolting stench vats shut down sonic screech?

Not having made a charge move would constitute a failure, and would therefore negate not only their ability to attack on the charge first, but anything involving "on the charge" (ie battering ram/shock assault/savage echoes).

[Kitane]

Correct me if I am wrong but I suspect it is also stripping the targetting restriction for the charging unit.

Not counting as having charged is just that, the restriction is gone.

If it survives the enemy attacks and remains within 1" to stay elligible, the unit should be able to activate and pile in and attack anything it reaches, even if it wasn't a declared target for the charge.

Makes declaring charges into the bubble quite straightforward.

[No One]

Revolting stench vats:

Revolting Stench (Aura): While an enemy unit is within 6" of the bearer, that unit cannot make use of any rules that allow it to fight first and never counts as having made a charge move this turn, irrespective of any abilities that unit may have.

Harpy:

When a Harpy
successfully charges, until the end of the
turn enemy units within 1" cannot be
chosen to Fight until all other eligible
units have done so.

Interesting question: I'm not sure. The hang up for me is on 'charge move' vs 'charges':

If this is possible,
then the charge is successful and the models in the unit make a charge
move so as to fulfil the above conditions. If this is impossible, the charge
fails and no models in the charging unit move this phase.

Definitely sounds like they're different things, while 'charge move' is referenced for many other rules (e.g. shock assault, chargers fight first and chargers only fight declared targets).

[naviedzony]

Definitely depends on the definition of charge move. If I had to guess, I would say that Revolting Stench shuts down every rule that is triggered by making a charge move. For example a carnifex could not deal a mortal wound by the Livinf Battering Ram rule and I believe the Sonic Screech also goes out the window.

[bigbadbalou]

Seems to me like the Harpy's ability would trigger. It's restriction is only "When a Harpy succesfully charges [...]".

There is 2 possibility here. Either it successfully charged, or it didn't (and is consequently not in melee). This would trigger (or not) regardless of the charge move itself or if the model has made a charge move at all (or if it's to be considered that it didn't had a charge move this turn). It's based only on if the charge is succesfull or not. And the ability itself is about something fighting last.

Revolting stench is about cancelling an ability triggered by a charge move or cancelling an ability to fight first, which both are irrelevent to the Harpy's ability since these two conditions has nothing to do with sonic screech.

Based on the rule cited by No one, Revolting stench is not "never count has having made a (charge / succesfull charge)" and so I think it should not affect Sonic screech which is triggered on a succesfull charge. Alternatively, I think the carnifex battering ram ability triggers "When finishing a charge move [...]". So Revolting stench would definitively shut down this ability in that case.

[newnid]

I was going through the core rules:

If charge successful, models make their charge move.

Which does seem to suggest that a "Successful charge" and a "Charge move" are 2 separate things.
I suppose the condition of the charge roll being equal to or greater than the minimum distance required is the "Charge successful or not"
While actually moving the unit said distance is the charge move.

But I don't know. That seems like a VERY fine line. I mean I don't think there's a case where you don't have one without the other (charge successful and charge move). I suppose this would be one of the few (if any more) examples that distinguishes between them.

What other sorts of things activate on a "successful charge" vs a "charge move"?

Chargers fight first activates on "charge move"
Carnifex Living Battering ram activates on "charge move"
Prey Sight activates on "Charge move"

Are there other things that activate on "successfully charged"?

[No One]

...Can't believe I forgot to check the glossary.

Has charged: If a unit makes a charge move in a turn, until
the end of that turn, that unit, and every model in it, is said to
have charged.

There we go.

[purestrain]

Mar 11, 2021 0:01:43 GMT No One said:

...Can't believe I forgot to check the glossary.

Has charged: If a unit makes a charge move in a turn, until
the end of that turn, that unit, and every model in it, is said to
have charged.

There we go.

Seemingly reinforcing my opinion that nothing would count, as being counted as not having made a charge move would mean you didn't charge, and would not gain any benefit therein.

[newnid]

CHARGING WITH A UNIT
Once you have chosen an eligible unit to declare a charge with, you must select one or more enemy units within 12" of it as the targets of its charge� The target(s) of this charge do not need to be visible to the charging unit� You then make a charge roll for your unit by rolling 2D6� This is the maximum number of inches each model in the charging unit can now be moved if they can make the charge move� To make a charge move, the unit’s charge roll must be sufficient that it is able to end that move in unit coherency (pg 4) and within Engagement Range (pg 4) of every unit that was a target of its charge, without moving within Engagement Range of any enemy units that were not a target of its charge� If this is possible, then the charge is successful and the models in the unit make a charge move so as to fulfil the above conditions� If this is impossible, the charge fails and no models in the charging unit move this phase

Charge is successful if the below are possible
1. Charge roll value is equal or greater than the Minimum value needed to get in engagement range of all and only targets declared
2. can end move in unit coherancy

then

Make charge move.

It seems like the charge successfulness is a possibility check after which a charge move is made based on the same checks.
Hmm. I don't know.

[niiai]

Not to be to pragmatic but is this a scenario that comes up? Do any of us play harpies or is this theoretical?

[newnid]

Mar 11, 2021 11:48:12 GMT niiai said:

Not to be to pragmatic but is this a scenario that comes up? Do any of us play harpies or is this theoretical?

I will have this matchup soon

[bigbadbalou]

Mar 11, 2021 1:45:20 GMT purestrain said:

Mar 11, 2021 0:01:43 GMT No One said:

...Can't believe I forgot to check the glossary.
There we go.

Seemingly reinforcing my opinion that nothing would count, as being counted as not having made a charge move would mean you didn't charge, and would not gain any benefit therein.

Yes, but even then the Harpy's ability is not "If the harpy has charged this turn" (which would indeed means it's ability is denied in that case). It's "When a Harpy successfully charges".

Still has only two options:
Roll for the charge
The charge is successful? Then apply ability and charge move the harpy in melee.
The charge failed? Then don't apply ability and don't charge move the harpy.

The charge move is done after declaring the charge successful (or not) right? Why would considering that the unit didn't count has having made a charge move cancel the preceding step and the success of the charge?

It seems to me that the revolting stench is not used to "cancel" a successfull charge. Even if the unit doesnt count as having charged, the charge itself was still successfull if the unit is in melee with the other unit. It seems to me a bit far fetched to link a "never count as having made a charge move" to a "doesn't count as having charged" (which is logical up to this point) and then to a "charge is not considered successful"...?

This brings a whole other question about the 6'' of the aura too (but we are really stretching things here. Just doing it to humor things a little...). The charge is declared successfull or not before doing the charge move. Wouldn't that mean that the aura is not applied when the ability is activated if the charge is from more than 6'' await? And if charged from less then 6'', would that mean then that a charge is never successful since you can never be considered having made a charge move, and so you didn't count as having charged, and so your charge is not considered successful?

Just so you know, In truth I think it's more something in line with the difference of wording from different editions. Like, probably the ability of the Harpy will change to be in line with all the other ability that activate "after doing a charge move" rather than "when X successfully charges". But we have the rules as written until a new codex comes up so...

[purestrain]

Mar 11, 2021 15:19:11 GMT bigbadbalou said:

Mar 11, 2021 1:45:20 GMT purestrain said:

Seemingly reinforcing my opinion that nothing would count, as being counted as not having made a charge move would mean you didn't charge, and would not gain any benefit therein.

Yes, but even then the Harpy's ability is not "If the harpy has charged this turn" (which would indeed means it's ability is denied in that case). It's "When a Harpy successfully charges".

Still has only two options:
Roll for the charge
The charge is successful? Then apply ability and charge move the harpy in melee.
The charge failed? Then don't apply ability and don't charge move the harpy.

The charge move is done after declaring the charge successful (or not) right? Why would considering that the unit didn't count has having made a charge move cancel the preceding step and the success of the charge?

It seems to me that the revolting stench is not used to "cancel" a successfull charge. Even if the unit doesnt count as having charged, the charge itself was still successfull if the unit is in melee with the other unit. It seems to me a bit far fetched to link a "never count as having made a charge move" to a "doesn't count as having charged" (which is logical up to this point) and then to a "charge is not considered successful"...?

This brings a whole other question about the 6'' of the aura too (but we are really stretching things here. Just doing it to humor things a little...). The charge is declared successfull or not before doing the charge move. Wouldn't that mean that the aura is not applied when the ability is activated if the charge is from more than 6'' await? And if charged from less then 6'', would that mean then that a charge is never successful since you can never be considered having made a charge move, and so you didn't count as having charged, and so your charge is not considered successful?

Just so you know, In truth I think it's more something in line with the difference of wording from different editions. Like, probably the ability of the Harpy will change to be in line with all the other ability that activate "after doing a charge move" rather than "when X successfully charges". But we have the rules as written until a new codex comes up so...

I know im being circular, but you dont get to successfully charge unless you make a charge move, if you count as not having made one, you then havent fulfilled the requirement of charging in the first place

"To make a charge move, the unit’s charge roll must be sufficient that it is able to end that move in unit coherency and within Engagement Range of every unit that was a target of its charge, without moving within Engagement Range of any enemy units that were not a target of its charge. If this is possible, then the charge is successful and the models in the unit make a charge move so as to fulfil the above conditions. If this is impossible, the charge fails and no models in the charging unit move this phase."

A charge is considered successful when you make your charge move in accordance with the rules (Ie within engagement range and not within ER of anyone you didnt charge) if its impossible (IE You never count as making a charge move in the first place) it fails and no one moves.

To me the Rule makes it so when you are done making your charge move in, that you then dont count as having made that move. Because of this, it would result in you counting as failing your charge (or at the lease, not succeeding), and the only way to fight would be after all chargers.

Could be wrong, more of a gut feeling that anything.