|
|
Post by kazetanade on Jun 15, 2021 11:00:34 GMT
I'm in agreement that as a design philosophy, we are "The Swarm". We're suppose to be a natural disaster of bone and chitin, flesh and ichor. As such, we should be akin to a tidal wave - much like Orks are called the Green Tide, or Necrons with the Silver Tide, Tyranids quintessentially are "Mother of All Tides".
To accurately capture this, there needs to be great threat and incentives to running huge blobs that outweighs running small units, and we're suppose to drag down stronger units just by being numerous and chip. It makes sense that our attacks aren't as strong, or are of lesser martial progress.
I think the very first major change to this is to immediately double the number of attacks each model gets - this 1 change alone would make our melee a veritable threat without having to make substantial changes to the rest of the codex, regardless of what unit is doing it.
Following closely after this is our very unique Synapse trait - its the linchpin of the army, something that makes or breaks it. I hear that the AdM army has strong traits that are balanced by negative traits - I would actually fully support such design philosophy by having strong or decent buff traits balanced by some inconveniencing (not mortal or destructive) negatives. Fearless should come as a given extra, and not the sole buff.
Hence you have the make up of a Nids swarm, with sea of claws and fangs held together by zones of control from key organisms that make everything work better than they should normally. This is what represents the quintessential swarm.
|
|
|
|
Post by piersonsmuppet on Jun 15, 2021 16:17:18 GMT
If they want to ensure adaptability as our gimmick a rule like 25% of army list is flexible and can be changed after seeing opponents list (75% locked and need to be specified which part is flex) would be cool. The most similar to this is the Imperiums' assassins' stratagem. I could see us getting to swap loadouts on a unit or unit for unit swap, but we don't have the ease of 4 models all worth the same points with vastly different roles. Could be interesting if our Hive Fleet's have a main trait and a sub-trait chosen amongst 4-5 options. 1 CP to swap the sub-trait would be worthwhile, and much more balanced than being able to change 25% of the army. Turn 3: change back to invade role to continue the invasion or switch to consume role, core units regenerate d3 single wound models or 1 multi wound model. Pretty thematic and I don't think it's too overboard I think the regeneration is more thematic for Orks than Tyranids. Nids typically birth new units as opposed to regenerating crippled/dead bodies, which have probably been recycled. I would also say that regeneration of models w/o pts or CP investment is maybe a little overboard. Atm, I think every faction needs a unit (apothecary, tervigon, etc.), or CP to bring back models in a unit. Free obj sec bodies from T3+ feels like it has the potential to be oppressive with 9th's objective based gameplay. I'm against the SM doctrine copy-pasta-ing as well, I like our weaker yet perpetual bonuses. I think the very first major change to this is to immediately double the number of attacks each model gets - this 1 change alone would make our melee a veritable threat without having to make substantial changes to the rest of the codex, regardless of what unit is doing it. I think doubling attacks would certainly break several units, and de-incentivize running blobs. GS would be particularly oppressive with 6 attacks base. I think that maybe reworking ST/MST would be a little less oppressive. Maybe +1A for the first pair, and +2A for each pair after the first. I think we more need a buff similar to Orks, but offensive focused. +1S to all our non-FW Monsters would help fix them I think. Our heavy units naturally wounding T8 on 4's instead of 5's helps w/o adding numbers, and the ST/MST attack buff would further correct their issues. MCC could be +1S AP -4 and D3+d3 and +1 to wound vs Monster/Vehicle to give Carnifex/Tervigon an actual option for T8. Similiarly, MRC could be brought to only re-roll vs non-Monster/Vehicle and w/ a small buff elsewhere to compensate (maybe streamline rend for RC/MRC to be +1D), and would better define weapons to a role. MST could probably see a slight reduction in power for the added attacks, maybe Monstrous could be AP -2 D2, Massive could be AP -3 D3. (Massive ST's doing more D than MCC always felt off to me). Dules would still be fine in melee adapting the changes to them, Barbed would get an additional attack and Scythed would get 3 (making it still a decent threat at the bottom table). This would be my view for the weapons: ST / MST / MaST: SU AP0 D1 / SU AP-2 D2 / SU AP-3 D3
+1 A first pair, +2 A for each additional pair
RC / MRC: SU AP-1 D1 / SU AP-2 D2
RC gets re-roll 1's to wound vs non-Monster/Vehicle and add +1D to the rend effect
MRC gets re-roll failed to wound vs non-Monster/Vehicle and add +1D to the rend effect
Can take 2 pairs on War/Tyrants/TG/Ravs, get +1 A for second pair
CC / MCC: SU+1 AP-4 D3 / SU+1 AP-4 D3+d3
Nix MaCC
CC / MCC both get +1 to-wound vs Vehicles/Monsters
Can take 2 pairs on TG/Carnifex, get +1 A for second pair
BS / LW & BS can probably remain mostly the same.
BS taking the ST's re-roll 1's to hit for 1 pair, +1 attack for 2 pairs. I think more accurate attacks for swords makes sense.
LW & BS maybe giving fight last or preventing fallback makes sense with other factions whip weapons.
|
|
|
|
Post by garg on Jun 15, 2021 21:59:40 GMT
Hive tyrant would need +2 str but to be honest I'd prefer to see it on the weapons. That way it is more of a choice of melee, shooting or hybrid monster.
The other thing i would like to see is a sweep attack. Maybe massive/monstrous scytals could give x2 attacks.
On an army basis I'd like to many buffs with negatives if necessary. Something i think would be very interesting is a defensive but after the first time a unit is shot each turn maybe stacking up to twice. This would be good because it is a slight counter to msu style which send very strong right now. Maybe +1sv -1/2 move with the option for certain synapse to cancel the negative next turn. Or even +++ and change catalyst to be like banners.
|
|
|
|
Post by draaen on Jun 16, 2021 1:39:47 GMT
I just wonder how much Tyranids really need anything new. Tweaking weapons and updating points, slots and profiles could probably resolve most of the issues competitively. A trygon is not a popular option now. But at 125 points with D3+3 damage and a 12" base move while being a FA choice? That seems tempting to me. Mawloc and trygons to FA, Toxicrene and Carnifexes to elite. Give decent main attack stats to monsters and the list building possibilities for monsters open up widely.
My wishlist is though
Make monster stats good on their own
Move around monsters into different battlefield roles
Larger psychic power pool
Adaptive Biologies for everyone! at a price either CP or points
Make warriors and tyrants with 4 bone swords do something that is worthwhile. 9 Warriors with 36 bone swords would be an amazingly cool unit!
That's it! I'm a simple man
|
|
|
|
Post by piersonsmuppet on Jun 16, 2021 3:30:32 GMT
Hive tyrant would need +2 str but to be honest I'd prefer to see it on the weapons. That way it is more of a choice of melee, shooting or hybrid monster. The other thing i would like to see is a sweep attack. Maybe massive/monstrous scytals could give x2 attacks. A S8 Tyrant w/o physiology or relic would be a bit much (outside of SL) w/o a considerable pts increase somewhere. I think they would be in a good place w/ S7, S8 w/ adaptation or SoT, and S9 w/ adaptation and SoT, and need minimal (if any) pts increase to balance it out. I don't think sweep attacks make sense for us, they are generally seen only on expensive HQ/LoW models which are unable to select different weapons and would be at risk of easy tar-pitting w/o it. Adding a sweep attack to a hybrid Tyrant w/ Devs would be a bit much, would clear chaff almost as good as Morty. I think Tyrants would have to lose Devs before they could be given a sweep attack, and I don't think that fits the Tyranid's design. I just wonder how much Tyranids really need anything new. Tweaking weapons and updating points, slots and profiles could probably resolve most of the issues competitively. A trygon is not a popular option now. But at 125 points with D3+3 damage and a 12" base move while being a FA choice? That seems tempting to me. Mawloc and trygons to FA, Toxicrene and Carnifexes to elite. Give decent main attack stats to monsters and the list building possibilities for monsters open up widely. I really like the shuffling of Monsters, as I'd say anything w/ T8 should probably be a Heavy Support and everything else would fit better elsewhere. Trygon/Mawloc in FA makes much more sense than HS, and Carnifex being in Elite makes much more sense for spamming them and not losing an entire battlefield role (add to it they are our Dreadnaughts, and Dreads are Elites). Toxicrene/Haruspex swapping slots would make sense, and keep their kits as a whole together (Toxicrene/Malecetor as Elites, Exo/Haruspex as HS). The thing I don't see is gaining 3"Mv, D3+d3, and a 25 pt drop. Trygon's would probably need to be aligned to mainly threaten elite troops, cavalry, or transports instead of heavy tanks or LoW models to see a significant pts drop (of which I'm in favor of both...they should be the more like the Monster version of Ravs imo). |
|
|
|
Post by garg on Jun 16, 2021 16:24:53 GMT
Maybe str7 base would better then with options for more hive fleets to buff to 8+ with a relic. Talos have one but maybe add more attacks to tusks (with a point increase) and give a tyrant base 6.
When an intercessor seargent with a chain sword has the same attacks as a pure melee tyrant there is something wrong.
|
|
|
|
Post by omnivore on Jun 16, 2021 19:23:25 GMT
Maybe str7 base would better then with options for more hive fleets to buff to 8+ with a relic. Talos have one but maybe add more attacks to tusks (with a point increase) and give a tyrant base 6. When an intercessor seargent with a chain sword has the same attacks as a pure melee tyrant there is something wrong. GW’s response: You have 5 not 4 attacks! You forgot that really good tail attack!  |
|
|
|
Post by hivefleetkerrigan on Jun 16, 2021 19:57:43 GMT
Maybe str7 base would better then with options for more hive fleets to buff to 8+ with a relic. Talos have one but maybe add more attacks to tusks (with a point increase) and give a tyrant base 6. When an intercessor seargent with a chain sword has the same attacks as a pure melee tyrant there is something wrong. GW’s response: You have 5 not 4 attacks! You forgot that really good tail attack! This reminded me of a conversation a friend and I had in 8e: Friend: why do you even run bone maces, I've never seen them do damage in any of our games. Me: they're two points so I figure why not maybe they'll do something Friend: oh that makes sense. I feel like you nailed GWs response. The amount of power creep and attack output has skyrocketed since chaos space Marines 2.0 in 8e. I'm hoping we get a boost but am not sure what GW is going to do. |
|
|
|
Post by infornography on Jun 16, 2021 20:31:31 GMT
Yeah, I'm kind of used to seeing everyone else get awesome new things and then they get to the Nids and they're like 'yeah, that's about right' and leave us a broken pile.
On rare occasion we will get a solid new codex that mostly works well and then a nerf to a core playstyle comes along in the core rulebook and BOOM, back to mid or low tier.
Once we got a substantial buff when the rules set changed from 5th to 6th. Most of our codex was steaming garbage but a few of our units became gods of the battlefield for a hot minute.
Sorry for all the salt, just saying to hope for the best but expect a wet noodle with half-hearted hype from some tourney player.
|
|
|
|
Post by tylertt on Jun 17, 2021 0:41:41 GMT
Once we got a substantial buff when the rules set changed from 5th to 6th. Most of our codex was steaming garbage but a few of our units became gods of the battlefield for a hot minute. I miss those days. Iron Arm Tervigon or Flyrant...oh yes |
|
|
|
Post by kazetanade on Jun 17, 2021 4:05:16 GMT
I am sad I never got to experience that. But I also never experienced FMC that were Jump Jet MC only, which got shot out of the sky more often than not, so fair's fair.
Pierson I compeletely disagree on the approach of +S instead of +A - our MC's issues are lack of rerolls and lack of volume. If a superhuman that's raised for war can attack 4 times with only 2 arms, something literally designed to be a shock troop with 4 arms should be attacking 8 times - it's simple maths. Likewise, a Tyrant should definitely be getting MORE Attacks than a Smash Cap can, and they're getting somewhere between 8-12 when hitting the table geared right. There is something seriously WRONG when a combat monster has the same weapon stats (usually worse stats but let's ignore that) but less attacks than something half its size.
Even bloody Dreadnoughts are getting like 5A on the charge, agnostic of combat or shooting variant (because they do both well). Bog standard Dreadnoughts hit as hard as our Specialist Monstrous Character, while having guns to boot!
Considering that a unit of Vanvets hits harder than Genestealers, with inbuilt rerolls to wound, x3 the effective durability, and the ability to get both a +1 to hit and rrs to hit as part of a normal build, with more attacks, for a similar price, yeaaaaa. doubling just the A hardly sounds broken.
|
|
|
|
Post by asvic on Jun 17, 2021 6:37:20 GMT
Actually I don't want to make genestealers more punchy. It'll be nice if they filled the scout move/infiltration niche that nids lack and if they were more about actions (could be pretty thematic if they and lictors were the only units who can attempt actions outside of synapse range) and small unit harassing, not giant blobs that shred stuff. Leave giant blobs to gaunts, shredding to monsters.
|
|
|
|
Post by kazetanade on Jun 17, 2021 9:46:30 GMT
Actually I don't want to make genestealers more punchy. It'll be nice if they filled the scout move/infiltration niche that nids lack and if they were more about actions (could be pretty thematic if they and lictors were the only units who can attempt actions outside of synapse range) and small unit harassing, not giant blobs that shred stuff. Leave giant blobs to gaunts, shredding to monsters. But Hivestrain Genestealers are not scouts in any traditional Tyranid army - they are a vangard shock troop. They're a sneaky blitzkrieg that overwhelms you in claws and fangs and more claws. They come in frickin' BROODS. It dont make sense for them to be just small unit harassings and not able to shred stuff. I dont even understand why they have a 5++ other than some designer didnt know what to do with them and just ripped off PGS. Right now they dont even work all that well in small units (unless you suscribe to No One's idea of them just pulling things down enough to out-contest, which I dont think GS do very well unless you're running big units anyway), and that's a problem that's solved by doubling their A, without making them bonkers considering they're already one of the most fragile pts/damage in the codex. Just like in Deathwing, it shouldnt take a protracted contact with Genestealers at your armor to kill you in your Terminator armor. You know who* should fill this roll? Purestrain Genestealers. They should be small in number, but hyper deadly, extremely stealthy, and you should never consider ignoring them in your own grill. They should be hard to hit, with a 4++ for their crafty sneakiness and agility, be able to infiltrate since they're the original infiltrators of any infected society, and either have a rule for their ovipositor to affect enemy units (which would be hilarious game-wise) or have one hell of a scary small unit blitz. I'd honestly prefer the former and be able to interact with the enemy in debilitating ways - not everything is about killing, and PGS need their own niche to fill. Just having Adv+Charge but giving up all the other rules that makes cults cult is NOT a niche. You know there's something seriously wrong when 2 Genestealers cost more than 1 murder rustbucket, but are less durable, less damage, dont have a gun, and disappoint the cult. |
|
|
|
Post by No One on Jun 17, 2021 11:57:20 GMT
unless you suscribe to No One's idea of them just pulling things down enough to out-contest, which I dont think GS do very well unless you're running big units anyway I'm yet to really get to test this (I've a sample size of 1 game with a 14 man and it worked well though ). But I've also moved to 10 mans in my theorycrafted list of the 'full' concept, because 16 pts for +16 attacks if I don't get shot is really good. And if I do get shot, it's probably enough to neuter the squad down to combat-uselessness anyway (just hopefully not utility uselessness without a full kill, even if it's just secondaries). (Note: the heavier stealer list is more something I'm toying with for a team tournament as something with different match up strengths to my normal list). I like this idea a lot. Unfortunately I don't think GW will do anything that interesting with them, which makes me sad. |
|
|
|
Post by piersonsmuppet on Jun 17, 2021 13:31:59 GMT
Pierson I compeletely disagree on the approach of +S instead of +A - our MC's issues are lack of rerolls and lack of volume. If a superhuman that's raised for war can attack 4 times with only 2 arms, something literally designed to be a shock troop with 4 arms should be attacking 8 times - it's simple maths. Likewise, a Tyrant should definitely be getting MORE Attacks than a Smash Cap can, and they're getting somewhere between 8-12 when hitting the table geared right. There is something seriously WRONG when a combat monster has the same weapon stats (usually worse stats but let's ignore that) but less attacks than something half its size. I suppose it depends on what you're looking for. A large increase in attacks will raise MC's effectiveness vs infantry, while doing very little to their ability to take on heavier targets. I would prefer for our monsters to be able to take on other monsters or vehicles better, and S would be a more efficient fix for that. I do think that added A couldn't hurt either, but I think those extra A's should come from better rules for multiple pairs of weapons. Just doubling the A characteristic will cause Hybrid builds to immediately overshadow combat builds, and invalidate the reason for the A increase. |
|
