Something something Codex

[Hive Bahamut]

A few already there:

Neurothrope extends range when it denies (consuming the energy)

Many eat the opponent to heal

Certain options get CP for killing

There is a Strat in the works to swap out adaptive physiology as well.

Great ideas.

[kwisatzhaderach]

I've had an idea kicking around for how I'd revise the Hive Fleet Adaptions.

Basically, they'd have an ability that was always on, and then an ability that was only "on" if they were within a Synapse creature.


Behemoth
You can re-roll failed charge rolls for units with this adaptation.
Whilst this unit is within 12” of a SYNAPSE unit (or 18” of a HIVE TYRANT), add 1 to its Movement Characteristic and Advance results.

Kraken
When a unit with this adaptation Advances, roll three dice instead of one and pick the highest to add to the Move characteristic of all models in the unit for that Movement phase. In addition, such units can Fall Back and charge in the same turn.
Whilst this unit is within 12” of a SYNAPSE unit (or 18” of a HIVE TYRANT), reroll to-hit rolls of 1 for units with this adaption in a turn when they made a Charge move.

Leviathan
Roll a D6 each time a unit with this adaptation loses a wound. On a 6, the damage is ignored and the unit does not lose a wound. If affected by the Catalyst psychic power, add 2 to the result of this roll. 
Whilst this unit is within 12” of a SYNAPSE unit (or 18” of a HIVE TYRANT), attacks made by enemy ranged attacks against this unit have their AP reduced by 1.

Gorgon
You can re-roll wound rolls of 1 in the Fight phase for units with this adaptation.
Whilst this unit is within 12” of a SYNAPSE unit (or 18” of a HIVE TYRANT), on an unmodified wound roll of 6 made by this unit against a non-VEHICLE, MONSTER, or TITANIC unit, the enemy unit suffers a mortal wound in addition to any normal damage.

Jormungandr
A unit with this adaptation (other than units that can FLY) always has the benefit of light cover and heavy cover. If the unit charges, however, it loses the benefit of this adaptation until the start of your next Movement phase.
Whilst this unit is within 12” of a SYNAPSE unit (or 18” of a HIVE TYRANT), its attacks ignore cover.

Hydra
You can re-roll hit rolls in the Fight phase for units with this adaptation that target units containing fewer models than their own.
Whilst this unit is within 12” of a SYNAPSE unit (or 18” of a HIVE TYRANT), it gets +1 to its attack characteristic as long as the unit has 10 or more models.

Kronos
You can re-roll hit rolls of 1 for units with this adaptation in your Shooting phase if they did not move in the preceding Movement phase.
Whilst this unit is within 12” of a SYNAPSE unit (or 18” of a HIVE TYRANT), whenever it fires Overwatch, it hits on a 5+ instead.

[Hive Bahamut]

kwisatzhaderach

Now we are cooking with fire. That is brilliant. Now psychic powers AND Adaptations are wholly influenced by Synapse. I hope you don't mind using that part for them. I have reworked a few of them though as I wholly expect Jormungandr to be different in 9th (they tried like 12 different versions of "counts as cover" and I don't think any will stay.) Also, Leviathan has been rolled into Synapse so I felt it needed something different too.

Your wording layout is much more grammatically appropriate than my piles of mush too.

[kazetanade]

Synapse giving you another boost is not bad (I absolutely love the idea since it's this basically a really good "Super Doctrine" in a nutshell, but the base chapter tactics are still missing their 2nd halves. Almost every CT now has 2 parts to it, Nids are one of the VERY few codexes left with only 1 part to the tactic.

Some are actually thematically obvious.

-Behemoth: Reroll Charges. +1 to S on a turn where Charge/Got Charged/Heroic Intervention. This is a VERY big deal if you consider a majority of the other abilities stay the same (+1S with +1 to wound + -2ap for Hormagants = a legitimately scary combat unit at a low-ish cost, and Genestealers become blenders).

Behemoth's identity revolves around extremely heavy punches. The entire Hive Fleet moves like a giant blob that rams itself into the next planet and devours it. You see it in almost everything the army has (+1S relic, mortal wounds on the charge strategem), so it makes sense that both parts of the CT should be about benefiting this. I'm not really sure about putting +1 move/advance as its Super Doctrine, as I think that Super Speed a Kraken thing more than a behemoth thing. Of course, +1 to charge AND reroll charges (and +1 to charge from Adrenal) makes some things extremely scary, like a Super Flyrant (with a 7" rerollable charge, yikes - I like). I feel that the Novokh treatment is actually really good for Behemoth, giving them extra AP when in synapse (that can be boost to 5s) would be the icing on this hive fleet for undeniably devastating DS assault tactics.

- Kraken: Roll 3 Advances Pick 1. Fall back and Charge no penalty. No changes required here since it was already one of the most standout fleets base, with a great strategem and WLT that actually ties into things thematically (even if it wasnt very good). Super Doctrine for more advance/charge distance is basically the security you need to ensure that Kraken ALWAYS gets where they need to, regardless of your advance roll.

- Leviathan: No synapse - 6+++. Synapse - 5+++. Catalyst - 4+++. Super Doctrine - If two units are in engagement, both get rerolls hits and wounds of 1. Strategem - Gorgon's brings back 1 dead unit (no reinforcement points), but cheaper for FLY (Flyrants, Gargoyles, Crones/Harpies). Spell: Gives another unit Synapse/max Synapse effects.

Leviathan is difficult because it's the fleet without much of an identity. It's identity is about masses and masses and masses of bodies - more than any other fleet before it. Perhaps a focus on flying creatures, due to its extremely heavy emphasis on gargoyles and Flyrants and Crones/Harpies. The thing that comes to mind to simulate endless bodies, is only replicatable in both FNP and respawn mechanics.

- Jormungandr: Ravenguard, nuff' said (although I would personally prefer a cover and +1sv combo instead of a cover + neghit combo). Super Doctrine - reduce incoming by -1ap. WLT: allows units 6" to Set to Defend. Relic: -2 to charge distance, and forces 1 unit to lose charge bonus in Fight phase. Spell is changed to target 1 unit that came in from Reinforcements, rather than target 1 eneny unit.

Jormungandr as a fleet is known to be extremely difficult to dig out - hence it's sthick should be about weathering fire and forcing people to come in close, where they can then tango on their terms.

- Kronos: reroll 1s to shoot if did not move. Additionally, -1 to psychic tests (cumulative with SitW). Super Doctrine - If fell back, can still shoot at -1 mod. Kronos has the identity of being the warp/daemon hunter, and we're very aware that they're preferred mode of hunting chaos warp demons is basically not engaging with them (literally, Leviathan decided to start shelling them from far away when the Fleet realized it couldnt get close to them cuz reality was warping funny hard). It's got a really strong shooting line and anti-psychic line. It should stick with it, and current codex wise it's pretty much there.

- Gorgon: All units gets reroll wounds of 1 for both Shooting and Fighting. Additionally, wounds of 6s -1ap more. Super Doctrine - In Fight Phase, Unmodified wound rolls of 6 produce mortal wounds. WLT - extra MW damage on every damage on a 4+ dealt to WL. Relic - a supercharged Malanthrope bubble. Strategem - (2cp) unit with Toxin Sacs triggers on 5+ instead of 6+, and gets full reroll to hit and wound. Spell: 5+ Acid Blood effect on a unit. Acid Blood strategem triggers on 4+ when under this effect.

Gorgon's thing is about especially virulent and toxic - in fact, almost acidic rather than just toxic, but poison apparently melts metal in the 41st millenium so who am I to judge. But thematically this army should be about dishing out MWs left right up down and all around. It should be a highly suicidal army that takes its opponents down with it. Doing damage as it dies is about as thematic as it gets, and as we're all aware, poison has always been a reroll mechanic for us, and it's prevalent even in 8th ed's lack of rerolls formula. It just needs more oomph to actually be considered.

- Hydra:

Hydra I draw a blank. If I remember right, this Hive Fleet is the one that got double teamed by Imperium + Tau. It was the fleet that most embodied mutability to adapt to the situation, but was outpaced by having to adapt to 2 different armies technologies at alternating times. (complete BS IMO but eh.) I havent a clue how to embody adaptability in a Chapter Tactic.

[garg]

For adaptation something like: -1 to wound or +1sv after a unit takes a wound each phase. Synapse: ignore ap1

Strategem: for monster keyword: you can only wound this unit on a natural 5 or 6 this phase.

The other thing is really like to see is that the splinter fleets can gain the synapse special and psychic power.

Edit: the -1 to wound may be too strong for gant carpet, so maybe +1sv stacking to +2 per phase or +1 for the battle. The second part could be regen 1 wound. Finally the synapse could be reroll one wound roll per unit similar to master artisan though on the wound.

[garg]

Mar 2, 2021 17:26:44 GMT afewveiws said:

Where is this hero hammer thing coming from? Every marine has a 3+ save, every tank has a 3+ save... a 3+ isnt a mark of a hero its a mark of durabilty. A rihno is a small transport box and even it has a 3+ save because its got the horse power and structural suport to put enough armour on it to be represented as such. A carnifex is about the same size as a rihno if not a little bigger and according to lore has the strength to rip said rihno in half. Them having a 3+ fits with the lore just fine.

What doesnt fit with the lore is that carnifexes where designed as tank destroyers and wall smashers, but on the table struggle to scratch a rihno let alone destroy it the turn it charges.

Im all for the whole facless horde aproach but the idea of giving our monsters standard IG armor saves and trying to justify it by giveing them abunch of wounds doesnt sit with the lore, biology, or physics. Our wound count doesnt save us, more toughness could be a path worth looking at but not changing thier durability would be fine too

From a fluff/lore/logic perspective i think more wounds makes more sense than armour. A tank like a rhino is mostly a hollow shell of armour. A carnifex is dense a mass of sinew, muscle, structure.

If i shoot some light rounds like an autogun or lasgun at a tank i would expect them to barely scratch it. If i shoot the carnifex i would expect it can punch the skin but be akin to a small cut.

If the carnifex is shot 100 times with light arms I imagine it succumbs to the successive wounds.

If a tank is shot 100 times with light arms I imagine that some are lucky shots which target a flaw in the armour or some exposed sensors or something.

So for me logic would say that having more wounds be right. It would also be more interesting from a game play perspective that different armies have different defensive strengths and weaknesses.
That said the change of a lot of anti tank to d3+3 damage and the way obscuring works makes it not so easy to implement.

[Hive Bahamut]

kazetanade

Yes! Added many bits to the pile and for clarification sake for fluff:

Leviathan has been doubled down into the Synapse fleet, whereas Hydra took the hordes. (Made sense to distinguish further.)

Many of these strengths are lost when Synapse is as well making it the only Super Doctrine that is always on BUT always able to be removed.


garg

You just explained my rational better than I ever could. This is exactly why I went this route initially and could go back. If all books play exactly the same we might as well go back to 1st edition and give everyone missle launchers again and T7 3+ transports.

Diversity is key in a standardized ruleset.

[kukie]

I like the little buffs to Gorgon and Hydra hive fleets. they don't get much love and they have some really nice color schemes I'd like to see people use more. Personally I like my Kraken bugs and want Kraken to be the ultimate Melee hive fleet but I like the idea of getting away from "the best way to run Tyranids is take either Kraken, Leviathon with a detachment of Kronos and that's the way to run them. I know people have had success with Jormungunder and some mono hive fleet lists but I don't believe I have seen any real play on the Gorgon and Hydra. I hear people talk about how Behemoth is "the hive fleet you want if you are running monsters"... but I don't see it. The 2 Dimacharon list that is wrecking tournaments is Kronos... or some people role with Kraken... I could be wrong but I haven't seen much play from Behemoth either.

[dranzyl]

I think the 2 dima list is surprise surprise kraken with a kronos detachment.

[nopeace]

Haven't bothered commenting for a while now, but this has a lot of stuff I've been thinking about so I figured why not jump back in. That said I love a lot of the ideas, and would take all this happily in a heartbeat. Some does seem unlikely:

-Gorgon just getting reroll 1s to wound in shooting and melee sounds a lot, even under some synapse restrictions. Maybe if its just melee. What do I know...just seemed lofty.

-I love the synapse stuff too, but I really don't see GW giving our whole army a 6+++ when they just took it from someone else (though the needing 2+ synapse does make it more possible). Think the whole "limit the disruptive dice rolls" concept 9th seemed (seemed) to be going for would restrict them even considering it. For one hive fleet sure, for an entire army I dunno.

-The extra extra movement stuff could get pretty balance stressful. Really like the one with the Hive Tyrant's but getting it on the others seems unlikely. Maybe if they are locked to infantry specific unit, like broodlord -> genestealer. If the Hive Tyrant gets this I'd say the SW should probably lose it. Have a wish list below with something for SW instead.

Criticisms aside here's a wishlist of things I've thought of I think are fluffy and could work:

-A Psychic ability: target unit can draw line of site to enemy unit if casting Synapse unit can see that enemy unit. I'm a fan of giving us some interesting shooting shenanigans rather than increasing our shooting potential.

-Lictors get an ability to pull a character under like 8 wounds like 3" closer to them when they are set out of deepstrike. This replaces their flesh hooks which I forget they have anyway. No need for anything else, just give me lictors that can pull units out of look out sir and theyll be proper unique character assassins. Almost like the hive mind told them to yoink that dude outta protection (Fluff excuse, just do it)?


-MAKE THE SWARMLORD A LOW (AND GIVE US AN EQUIV MODEL). That could be its own other thread I'm sure but cmoooon. Just come on. So he would not have an extra movement ability, but here is what we replace that with: 1 unit per shooting and fighting phase target unit within Swarmlord's synapse (Which should be like 30", and do a bunch a buncha other LOW level things) may shoot or fight again (at a maximum of two rounds shooting/fighting per phase, so Swarmlord couldn't make anything go a third time and hopefully doesn't convince them to take away our strats that do this) Sounds like a proper LOW ability not yet explored. They've also been taking away a bunch of fight/shoot again right (or at least restricting it)? Make it our big thing. Seems like a mechanic with a great fluff excuse in "Hive Mind says kill, I kill." Even after they point SW at 600 pts I'll take it for this.

[Hive Bahamut]

nopeace

Gorgon: Part of why I decided to go with shooting and melee is Tyranids have very little in the way of rerolls apart from Talons. This gives Gorgon a big buff to any unit, but you have to take Gorgon. You would see hybrids shine here like Warriors, Pyrovores, Raveners, Tyrants etc. There is currently no reason to use these units. Also, it seemed daft to me that they could poison their blades but not their ammo?

6+++ is even more available than it used to be why does everyone focus on Disgustingly Resiliant? Apothecaries basically all do it now, most armies have access to a trait that is 6+++ and it is an excellent way to represent pain (organic tissues) being ignored. I actually can't think of an army that doesn't have it available apart from Necrons. They have Super FNP instead. This is a real curiosity of mine as it is even more prevalent than ever, and everyone tells me it is gone?

Metabolic Overdrive and Swarmlords Hive Commander have been toned down and I expect to do a revamp again once I get all pieces in.


Toyed with the idea of Lictor and CP charging but have decided that a whole rework is due with the kit coming out and needing good rules.


Swarmlord is our Chapter Master, IF Calgar can punk him every chance he gets there is no way he is standing up to Roboute's plot armour. Also, if you follow the Hierarchy GW has applied our Primarch will be the "HiveLord" and it will be with our revamp in 10th. Brood-Swarm-Hive Lord (this is speculative but I 100% believe to be the case.)

[Hive Bahamut]

A question for those that have new codexes: What are the categories for Strats?

How can we implement CORE to include everything except LIVING BOMB, and does that make the most sense?

Double actions are Tyranids Schtick in 8th, but it is an odd identity. ONE unit can move 2x, ONE unit can fight 2x, ONE unit can shoot twice, add Damage etc. For a faceless horde army I see a LOT of Elitism and singularities in what should be an ocean of sand. I expect we keep the everything 2x, as Single Minded Annihilation is actually how this army operates. The pull door is never pulled, they just push gants into it until it bursts open. Why turn the power to the gun off when you can just cram gargoyles into the chamber until it stops shooting? As intelligent and cunning as they are logic isn't their strength by any means.

[terminatoruk]

Good ideas all around guys - agree with the majority of what is being proposed here.

Resisting the urge to go too granular, these high level themes I'd love to see:

- Weapon Symbiosis - Tyranid units never suffer the penalty for advancing and shooting (rationale - don't improve BS but make them accurate when moving flat out - the weapon is 'part' of the being and therefore should handle instinctively no matter how fast they are moving)

- Movement - needs improving for the majority of units by 1" across the board

- Wounds - improvememt in wound count in Monsters. Consideration given to 'duty eternal' type -1dmg type rule where it makes sense (maybe on Carnifexes)

- Ranged weapons - 2Dmg on several profiles already mentioned would be good. Be careful what you wish for though as changing D3 profiles to Dmg2 effectively means a nerf against Deathguard and Dreadnoughts etc.. Might be better to focus non-random number of shots instead. Fleshborers need range buff to 18".

- Melee weapons - more reliable damage profiles like D3+3 on massive scything talons, 2D on bones words etc...

- Blood of Baal 1CP strats baked into many units' datasheets (e.g. like rippers being -1 to hit when arriving from deepstrike until they move)

- Rules for Hive Fleet Tiamat (Sv boost or -AP resistance etc..) and Hive Fleet Oroborus (buffs for flying units)

[mentior]

Because we have only fleshy things, i would joyfully see something like the AM Codex in regard of the hivefleet adaptaions. Monsters get different buffs than infantry/Beasts. In my opinion: whats good for gaunts isn't always good for our bigger bugs. Its like synapse which is great for Gaunts but for anything else a net negative because its only one Monster or very few models in the unit.
AP mitigation or damage reduction for example is not very good for gaunts but better on a carnifex . Warriors on the other hand are in a special spot between both because they would be the prime target for weapons like heavy bolters agains which both buffs would be amazing.
Reroll Hits if your unit outnumbers something is amazing for gaunts and genestealer, utterly useless for a Hivetyrant and can be good for Warriors agains vehicle or small 3-man units. One Alternative for example would be if you count the total wounds of your unit and not the models for the sake of mechanics like that.

[joysan76]

i would like to seee a difefret mechanic for bological adaptatons

not more, 1+1 if you sacrifice the general trait

but something that may depend by the game size and may b with some HQ that grants an adaptation to one or more units (like tervgon may grants to all (terma)gants units within range a chosen adaptation, or a prus may grant it to one warrior unit in the army, in effect the biological adaptation may open en entire wolrds of possibility if well done