Something something Codex

[garg]

Feb 16, 2021 12:18:20 GMT Kitane said:

The fairly likely low effort updates:

Venom cannons -> D2
Barbed Stranglers -> D2
Boneswords -> +1S
Crushing Claws -> D2

Impaler Cannon -> D2
Shock Cannon -> Assault 3

Deathspitters with Slimer maggots -> D2
Massive Scything Talons -> Dd3 + 3, S+1
Monstrous Scything Talons -> S+1
Monstrous Boneswords -> S+1
Toxicrene tentacles -> D2
Rupture Cannon -> Dd3+3
Stranglethorn Cannon -> Assault 2d3
Monstrous Rending Claws -> D2 on the regular wound roll
Acid Spray -> -2AP, D2

+1A for Lictors, Hive Tyrants, Hive Crones, and Tervigons.
+1 to hit for Harpies against non-FLY targets.

16W for Tervigons, Tyrannofexes, and Haruspexes
14W for Exocrines
(yeah, the wound buffs are not that likely, but who knows)

The OOE will generate extra hits on unmodified hit rolls of 6.
Tyrannofex and Exocrine will have a different shoot-twice condition.

Single-minded Annihilation and Adrenaline Surge will be restricted to CORE.
Only Troops will be CORE.
Many of the unit-specific stratagems from BoB will be gone.

Symbiostorm will remain but will work on unmodified 6 to hit.
Paroxysm will be updated to use the new eligible wording.

Tyrannocyte will be able to arrive on turn 1 and will follow SM rules.

The synapse network will get a super-doctrine system granting additional effects. This could go in any direction, from simple turn-specific bonuses to a slow accumulation of movement/attack/survival buffs as they adapt to the battlefield and the enemy.

random wtf changes:
Spinefists will get rerolls to hits.
Flamespurt will be forgotten and remain at 10"
Tentaclids will trigger extra MW against AIRCRAFTS on 3+

disclaimer: These are not my wishes, these are my expectations.

I think many of these seem like realistic changes. I could imagine pairs of melee weapons adding attacks, so that two pairs of scytals gives +2 attacks instead of one or rending + scytals also gives +2 but one attack must be with the scytals.
The other thing i would like to see is for crushing claws to lose the -1 to hit. Finaly the option for a sweep attack weapon that gives 2-3 attacks for each one on the profile.

[kwisatzhaderach]

I wrote this wishlist a while ago when some people on TTH were discussing combining aspects of Flesh Eater Courts with the Tyranid codex.

Basically there is a lot more summoning going on from HQs, and of course stuff is upped in stats to fit the 9th edition model.

• The basis of the wishlist revolves around more synergistic Synapse bonuses that all Tyranid units benefit from.
  
• The summoning system is derived from Flesh Eater Courts, and does not cost reinforcement points to use. (Likely not possible under 9th edition rules but we can dream, right?)
• Most importantly, it increases the speed of most Tyranids. Termagaunts are up to M8", Warriors up to M7". Haruspexes up to M10". Tyranids were historically one of the fastest armies and this was lost over time. I've re-added it.
• Overall more wounds and more speed have been added, plus some additional upgrades like Extended Carapace that are on so many Tyranid sprues.

Most importantly: Genestealers go to WS2+ by default (they used to be WS6, seriously)

Check it out here!

docs.google.com/document/d/1OdDwFGhRIVz8jvc23gCcr2hfFR2cW0hJ-ih1Aa27mUo/edit?usp=sharing

[Hive Bahamut]

dranzyl

I updated the wording. I am trying to keep it straight but it is raw workings so thank you for catching that!

I understand that the entire W/+ is nonsense and won't be in the Codex. That is just MY wish. Horde army with elite monsters is stupid. Apart from these 2 I am trying to be as accurate as possible with what could be.

Yeah the unit Synapse can be something entirely different, but that is easy enough in specific buffs. I just took what the other armies banners do and applied that to our "Synaptic" Banner, and added the Lt. That is all. 0 change otherwise. Banners give: +Ld, fearless, A, S, FNP, fight on death. Lt. Give reroll 1.

How often is depending on you. If you want Synapse saturation that is quite easy to do already. In fact you can plug it in and use only those units for an army if you like. How likely is that to stick around all game? Not high. That SHOULD be the case. Synapse should be integral to this army. It should be important to have and even more important to network. Tyranids don't have 1 leader, they have many.

kwisatzhaderach

Yes yes I like it! I know my W and + is off as I am implementing the hordes aspect instead of just more 3+

I Feel like if you remove all my tweaking and your summoning we are boiling down to a more realistic thing here.

Shame on me for forgetting about WS2+ Stealers.. Highest in the game on a troop for eternity.

@kitane

A lot of those look about right. Weapons are next!

[kwisatzhaderach]

Feb 19, 2021 3:29:51 GMT Hive Bahamut said:

kwisatzhaderach

Yes yes I like it! I know my W and + is off as I am implementing the hordes aspect instead of just more 3+

I Feel like if you remove all my tweaking and your summoning we are boiling down to a more realistic thing here.

Shame on me for forgetting about WS2+ Stealers.. Highest in the game on a troop for eternity.

Thanks!
And yeah I do agree with you that it makes more sense with the approach you're taking with the monsters. But from what we've seen GW do so far, they've pushed the hyper elite, tough monsters. So most of what I did was following that same framework.

Agreed that combining our two approaches results in something that closely approximates what they'll do with the next codex.

And I know - Tyranid players have really been gaslit into forgetting some of what made Genestealers so scary! They're one of the few units that has gotten worse stats every edition, it feels like. Hopefully that reverses for 9th...fingers crossed. 

That being said, if I had to choose between WS2+ and purestrain genestealers having D2 or W2, I'd take the D2 or W2. 

[Hive Bahamut]

Weapons are done now. Trying to keep it calm except the D3 going to flat 2, and some flavour added with the healing/electricity/consumption.

Nids use a lot of acidic fluids/toxins/fire/electricity simply because it doubles as predigesting. I want to be able to eat my enemy, while they hold onto some flag we don't comprehend. Tried to keep it simple but a little more.

As always all adjustments and criticism please! If something looks dumb I want to try to correct it before it is time.

[jesper77]

Would like to see more auras that improve stats on HQs. +1 to hit, +1 damage and so on. Defensive buffs, much needed. A couple of realy powerful stratagems.

Synapse should only reward and not punish, if it does punish the rewards should be over the top good. Can’t see what’s the point with giving a faction a disadvantage right from the start. Adaptations should give dual bonuses like SM and open up for different play styles. Far better relics and WL traits. This part of our current codex is realy realy bad.

More inv and attacks on the big bugs and native BS and WS of 3++. So stupid giving a 200+ points model shity stats and almost no chance of giving attackers a run for their money, that’s sad

I should add I like many things with our current codex, fight and shoot twice, double move and so on so so hope they keep some of it. Last, I would like a new bad ass LOW or make swarmlord beeing able to go head to head against the primarchs in the game.

The codexes that has dropped in 9th has been realy good and strong, let’s hope we don’t get a Cruddace dex.

Dear Santa please, we’ve been good little gaunts so pretty please give us an awsome dex.

[Hive Bahamut]

The buffs and fleet specific synapse buffs are coming. Didn't really know how to tackle the project other than rough draft it and edit as I go.

At first I thought Synapse should just be a buff but then I realize this actually keeps Nids a little different. The negatives are: -1 to hit and -2" if multicharging, and then if you want that 3+ positioning/logistics become an issue. FNP, +1A and reroll 1's is a large buff. This doubles down as Synapse IS important.

All Synapse has a ++ and everything has more A. Adaptations are coming with the rest and will just be a point upgrade for units.

I streamlined the Degrade as M", WS, BS. Creatures of flesh degrade in efficiency and speed, not necessarily strength as given with the Rhino example.

Swarmlord is our Chapter Master or Ghaz equivalent. I ignored the "X damage per turn mechanic" as I think it is a dumb band aid for an overkilly edition. The Hivelord will be our Primarch equivalent and it will come with our 10th redo. (Silent king coming back to warn about Nids IMO)

[afewveiws]

Yeah so i almost liked whst you did here except i noticed alot of it is scewed to making gun bugs better. Thats fine but seems od since we are suppose to be a melee-centric army.

Heres a few questions:

Why does ooe have 2d6" as his movment charecteristic?

Why are termagants as fast as hormagaunts?

Carnifexes not only drop to a 5+ save but also degrade due to health pool?

Monsters with a low save will evaporate very fast regardless of how much health and healing you give them. Anti tank already take away most if not all our saves but with this list all guns would shred our bests. Your changes could work in an entirly different addition where the average antitank doesnt have ap-3 3+d3 damage. Even a heavy bolter would more then likely do 2 damage and thats suppose to be clearing chaff not threatening monsters.

More attacks, faster movement, better synapse, cheaper units. This is what we need not lower saves and more wounds.

A tyranid monster has every right to have a 3+ save considering they are monsterous beasts genetically somewhere between a beetle and a lizard. Scale eother of those up to a tank sized creature and youd be hard pressed to pierce its hide let alone actually hurt it.

... Im sry for my rant but there is alot here that would remove tyranids from even being playable outside of gants and guns and even then Gaurd do that better.

[Hive Bahamut]

Ah finally, someone to challenge the concepts. YES! That is the purpose here, I can rough mould an idea but if it is stupid that needs to be said.

Unfortunately Nids have never ever been the Starship Troopers Bugs so many people want from them. I have been playing from early 4th and throughout my entire Nid career people have always said they are a melee faction. They are not. Not even close. They are Mario Xenos. They do everything pretty good but nothing exceptionally great except morale. IF you want to split hairs you could even say they ARE assaulting with the guns, as they are for the most part some smaller Tyranid trying to eat you. That being said, yes it does seem a little more filled in and will continue to keep that in mind.

1. I had something for this, there was a whole reason involving his get back up and movement but to be honest I forgot. I think something about giving him no degrade movement but always random. Reviving 2x potentially is scary. Wanted to restrict some way that played into the fluff. Old, One eyed. Probably not the best at depth perception..

2. Gaunts both have sets of rudimentary forearms for propulsion, I see very little reason why one with claws would run faster than a gun, when they are using their other 4 appendages to run. I want to expand this further by making Hormagaunts Beasts, but just haven't worded it all in yet. (Seriously not a single beast in the most no bipedal of armies!?) I could see an arguement to drop them though. Will update. Also, Genestealers should be slower as bipedal.

3. The Carnifex are in a weird place, right now they are like mini Dreadnaughts but pay the sameish for much worse. I haven't figured out whether they stick around under 10 or jump up. I honestly just threw most numbers in at a whim, trying to just get some structure.

4. Ahh yes, this is the tricky part. Remember though that all the Synapse have ++ and everything under it has 6+++ (initially I had all monsters as 5+++) Monsters paying for a 3+ that is reduced to - would quickly be realized by a Hive Mind as inferior. Shermans weren't superior to Tigers but they outnumbered them enough to make it count. That is this. We should be outnumbering the enemies bigs 2-3:1. You should never care about losing an asset, as they aren't. This army isn't herohammer, but a faceless horde. The healing and reduction is more about punishing opponents for not finishing the job as they are just as likely to be in near healthy condition when it comes around again.

5. More attacks check (all profiles AND 2+ Synapse adds +1 more)
Faster movement check (almost all profiles and 2 Hive Fleets)
Better Synapse Double check (strongest Synapse yet)
Cheaper units? Points not quite done yet, just initial volley, but trying to be conservative vs. free things everywhere!

6. Yes that makes sense, but like you mentioned it is irrelevant against AT and only semi effective against AI.

Nids have forever been at the mercy of a handful of datasheets. I am trying to break that mould. Much of the codex is worthless already, making it more so doesn't really downgrade anything. Trying to find a sweet spot between worthless and just worth enough. Now that we know 5 points is the entry level that helps.


Thank you for the insight! Will try to work much in and continue.

[joysan76]

before the 4 edition tyranids was more cc oriented considering their ragned weapons was limited to fleshborer, spike rifle, strabgleweb, devourer, deathspitters, bioplasma, venom cannon and stranglethorn cannon considerig only the alst 2 pass the 24" and the small troop weapons was usually 12" ranged.

obviusly things changes and as allwe know 'nids may do anythign wthout be great in nothing, personally i would like that if now nids have a "power 70" and the best army may have a "power 100" in a certain warfare style, nid's using the right bofleet may reach the "85"

the differents biofleet have all the potential to do that offering many solutions because adaptation should be the keyword of our army, that don't means that at any edition we must be good to change totally our style, but that a tyranid player could have the options to change totally the way to approach a match

[afewveiws]

Where is this hero hammer thing coming from? Every marine has a 3+ save, every tank has a 3+ save... a 3+ isnt a mark of a hero its a mark of durabilty. A rihno is a small transport box and even it has a 3+ save because its got the horse power and structural suport to put enough armour on it to be represented as such. A carnifex is about the same size as a rihno if not a little bigger and according to lore has the strength to rip said rihno in half. Them having a 3+ fits with the lore just fine.

What doesnt fit with the lore is that carnifexes where designed as tank destroyers and wall smashers, but on the table struggle to scratch a rihno let alone destroy it the turn it charges.

Im all for the whole facless horde aproach but the idea of giving our monsters standard IG armor saves and trying to justify it by giveing them abunch of wounds doesnt sit with the lore, biology, or physics. Our wound count doesnt save us, more toughness could be a path worth looking at but not changing thier durability would be fine too. Strength is whats lacking in our army and that should be addressed. We are glass hammers and our 3+ saves doesnt change that, but when we do hit our targets we should have some confidence in them actually hurting what they are suppose to target.

As for the whole "not melee oriented" arguement... you havent read much lore if you actually think this. The vast majority of nids are, with only a few that are only designed to be artillery beasts. Exocrene and tfexes being some of the newest monsters introduced to the nids and outside of that you have hivegaurd and biovore... tgants could be argued for here but they are frontline gunners who end up being bullet spunges more then anything else. yes there are lots of hybrid options and things that could be kitted out to be gun platforms but you'll be hard pressed to find them represented in the lore.

As for the whole tgant being the same speed as a hgaunt... the hgaunt has different leg structure that allows it to propel its self faster while the tgant is able to control its movement to shoot more accuratly on the advance. Just like a cheetah and a leopard are compareable in size and shape but a cheetah is vastly supperior in speed due to its specially evolved leggs, spine and tail.

Gunline nids doesnt need to disappear, i like the option, but building a melee oriented list should feel natural and be effective.

[dranzyl]

Not mellee oriented is based on stats not lore. Very few models in the army have what it takes to be good/decent in a mellee role. It sucks but it is how it is. With the new rules for the dima and the dule our roster almost doubled in that respect (not counting special chars) so its not all that bad.

[afewveiws]

But this thread isnt anout current rules its about wish listing for our next codex with alot of emphasis on lore accurate synapse being relevant...

[Hive Bahamut]

Just to be clear I love all the feedback, in no way shape or form do I intend to have any negative connotation. If I seem defensive it is only because I am passionate about trying to make it work. This turned from a joke project to a massive overhaul.


joysan76

That is a very good summary of my end goal here.

Tyranids eat everything, therefore they encounter everything. I actually think an adaptive Hive Mind would refuse to continue to bring knives to a gunfight if it didn't work. WHICH is why there is so much ranged utility. Turns out our Genestealers are basically all you need in confined spaces, cities and against more native flora and fauna but open fields and opponents that hunker down?... That is as useless as it gets.

afewveiws

The Herohammer is present in just about every other codex, especially the ones with LoW. Ragnar, Trajann, Silent King, Mortarion, Magnus etc. Nids have many leaders, never one. Trying to make that show in no auto include named characters or Warlord Traits. (In the case of Morty and King they are so oppressive that they singlehandedly win games. This is bad rules design.)

Your arguement is sound and I really didn't feel like trying to formulate all that additional stuff that we will never see. Revamped back to now be a codex we are getting, not one I want.

Haven't read lore
Where do I start here.. Do you really believe I would attempt a project like this without reading all of the codices (4th onwards, clown Nids were a joke) and as much lore as I could? I also have been deep diving on Genestealers exclusively in the other thread. Unfortunately Black Library is Bolter Porn so if you are using that as data you are doing no justice to Nids. I love "The Greater Good" but it is still Bolter Porn. Captain nonsense kills the bad guy commander after suffering a grievous wound (Sorry I just ruined every Nid story by them.)

I will explain WHY badguys/faceless monsters use melee, and that is to tell a good story. Nothing more. What is more cinematic? 2 enemies standing in cover shooting each other across the battlefield, or ONE of those factions labelled as "Bad" running trying to "TAKE EVERYTHING" from the "good guys," who are defending their home? This goes right back to the start of 40k. Chaos was made melee so they can be bad guys. Bad guys do all the work and good guys take credit. Nothing new there.

The Gaunt thing has been changed as well, that makes a lot of sense.


I actually thought I was making the melee aspect too strong. Will continue to tweak.

dranzyl
This was one of the inspirations for this project. Nids have always had just a handful of Lynchpin datasheets and trying to address that so nothing is THAT bad or auto include.

afewveiws

It was supposed to be a weird hybrid of want and get but dumping the want and trying to nail the get. This is already a massive project undertaking, I don't need to convolute it more with random BS.


Exciting to have more feedback. Hopefully we can keep it going, and end up with a copy and paste version. (hire me GW i do's it)

[hivetyrantjohn]

Since we're wishlisting....

Tyranids are supposed to be this endless swarm that adapts, consumes biomass, and keeps getting bigger and bigger. Letting us bring back units from the dead would be fluffy, but free summoning is really broken. So how about instead, each time a Tyranid unit destroys an enemy, everything in synapse range gets a buff, sort of how Dark Eldar power from pain works, or how Epidemius Nurgle lists work. It would represent the hive mind consuming the enemy and learning from each battle.