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Post by Hive Bahamut on Feb 2, 2021 0:04:03 GMT
Had a game yesterday and used a variant of this list (Mostly due to not having models, even with subbing friends Militarum) but I can't get away from Cog. It looked like this:
Bladed Cog Battalion:
Patriarch w/ Mark
Undying/Might
Alphus
3x10 Acolytes w/4 Saws/Banner
2x10 Neophytes
18x Shotguns w/2 Flamers
Kelermorph (next model to get axed, auto dies to auspex)
3x Ridgerunners
3x Goliath
Astra Militarum Patrol
Primaris Psyker
2x5 Scions w/ 2plasma and pistol (free upgrade on BS3? Really?)
2x3 Bullgryn (2x Slab 1x Brute)
2x Scout Sentinels
Demolisher Tank
Going into it I knew the tank was a waste but didn't really have anything else to slot in. Killed 1 Hellblaster before being 1 rounded by them.
This might be one of my first proper 9th games. Nothing in the list is designed to kill, except the Runners, and that is just for 1 problem unit. The Scout Sentinels mesh well with Runners now that BiD is lesser again, and they both let me get ahead on domination. Ended up with 40/45 Primary, 3/15 Assassinate (Kelermorph was auspex'd by random dudes, that Strat losing -1 is bogus.) 9/15 Domination and 10 or 11/15 for Banners. Easily one of the best GSC games played and still lost by 12 last turn.
A few notes: Relying on deepstrike is dead. Auspex has picked up every unit it has been used against since the change, shooting or melee.
Tanks will always be trash
Trucks bleeding less points and costing less helps marginally, but sort of like spraying perfume on a turd.
6++ is too hard to pass up in a world of -1--4AP stock
I had mentioned if this was 7th I would just stop playing. Maelstrom with this level of output would essentially be just putting your models down to pick right back up.
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Post by kazetanade on Feb 2, 2021 8:48:35 GMT
Had a game yesterday and used a variant of this list (Mostly due to not having models, even with subbing friends Militarum) but I can't get away from Cog. It looked like this: Bladed Cog Battalion: Patriarch w/ Mark Undying/Might Alphus 3x10 Acolytes w/4 Saws/Banner 2x10 Neophytes 18x Shotguns w/2 Flamers Kelermorph (next model to get axed, auto dies to auspex) 3x Ridgerunners 3x Goliath Astra Militarum Patrol Primaris Psyker 2x5 Scions w/ 2plasma and pistol (free upgrade on BS3? Really?) 2x3 Bullgryn (2x Slab 1x Brute) 2x Scout Sentinels Demolisher Tank Going into it I knew the tank was a waste but didn't really have anything else to slot in. Killed 1 Hellblaster before being 1 rounded by them. This might be one of my first proper 9th games. Nothing in the list is designed to kill, except the Runners, and that is just for 1 problem unit. The Scout Sentinels mesh well with Runners now that BiD is lesser again, and they both let me get ahead on domination. Ended up with 40/45 Primary, 3/15 Assassinate (Kelermorph was auspex'd by random dudes, that Strat losing -1 is bogus.) 9/15 Domination and 10 or 11/15 for Banners. Easily one of the best GSC games played and still lost by 12 last turn. A few notes: Relying on deepstrike is dead. Auspex has picked up every unit it has been used against since the change, shooting or melee. Tanks will always be trash Trucks bleeding less points and costing less helps marginally, but sort of like spraying perfume on a turd. 6++ is too hard to pass up in a world of -1--4AP stock I had mentioned if this was 7th I would just stop playing. Maelstrom with this level of output would essentially be just putting your models down to pick right back up. Kellermorph can be protected by Character Protection, just highlighting. Not always relevant I know, just saying. |
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Post by beetlejuice on Feb 2, 2021 12:20:03 GMT
Had a game yesterday and used a variant of this list (Mostly due to not having models, even with subbing friends Militarum) but I can't get away from Cog. It looked like this: Bladed Cog Battalion: Patriarch w/ Mark Undying/Might Alphus 3x10 Acolytes w/4 Saws/Banner 2x10 Neophytes 18x Shotguns w/2 Flamers Kelermorph (next model to get axed, auto dies to auspex) 3x Ridgerunners 3x Goliath Astra Militarum Patrol Primaris Psyker 2x5 Scions w/ 2plasma and pistol (free upgrade on BS3? Really?) 2x3 Bullgryn (2x Slab 1x Brute) 2x Scout Sentinels Demolisher Tank Going into it I knew the tank was a waste but didn't really have anything else to slot in. Killed 1 Hellblaster before being 1 rounded by them. This might be one of my first proper 9th games. Nothing in the list is designed to kill, except the Runners, and that is just for 1 problem unit. The Scout Sentinels mesh well with Runners now that BiD is lesser again, and they both let me get ahead on domination. Ended up with 40/45 Primary, 3/15 Assassinate (Kelermorph was auspex'd by random dudes, that Strat losing -1 is bogus.) 9/15 Domination and 10 or 11/15 for Banners. Easily one of the best GSC games played and still lost by 12 last turn. A few notes: Relying on deepstrike is dead. Auspex has picked up every unit it has been used against since the change, shooting or melee. Tanks will always be trash Trucks bleeding less points and costing less helps marginally, but sort of like spraying perfume on a turd. 6++ is too hard to pass up in a world of -1--4AP stock I had mentioned if this was 7th I would just stop playing. Maelstrom with this level of output would essentially be just putting your models down to pick right back up. Kellermorph can be protected by Character Protection, just highlighting. Not always relevant I know, just saying. Was gonna say the same, drop BB or neos first to either bait auspex or make kelermorph untargetable by it. Have yet to play a single game where kelermorph doesn’t earn his points back and usually scoring some VP in the process |
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Post by Gunnerside on Feb 2, 2021 13:45:34 GMT
Also keep in mind that Auspex Scan changed in the last version of the SM codex. It is now triggered after all deep striking units have been placed on the board, so you now do not have to worry about the order of when you place your units, and the Kellermorph may even remove most of the Auspex Scan threat if you PA him in and shoot away the threat. Hive Bahamut: How did the two smaller units of Bullgryn perform? My concern is that you would not get the most out of the Take cover strat and psychic barrer power with smaller units. |
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Post by Hive Bahamut on Feb 2, 2021 16:49:06 GMT
I've never been able to drop Brood/Neo's with Kelermorph. Jealous of lax screening you guys see. Barely room for 1 40mm base let alone 10 25mm and 1 40mm.
That being said he just goes with the other Snipers. Back in box.
Bullgryn did alright, but again 0 point in 2+ save because Astartes chunk it right back to 5 even with Barrier and Cover. All 4++ going forward. AP-5,6 not uncommon Primaris anymore. The small squad size was perfect. Their whole job was to stand beside Sentinels on forward objectives.
Ironically enough the AM part did all the heavy lifting apart from Ridgerunners. Just so much damage output from the Astartes that impossible to keep pace on points.
Maybe next time I will try Helix out but using it without Aberrants is sad to me, as well as +2" would have done nothing this game.
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Post by kazetanade on Feb 2, 2021 18:59:35 GMT
AP-5 and AP-6 is NOT common even in Primaris armies. The only thing that hits AP-5 is melta (and hence Eradicators), and if you're eating melta you should have the presence of mind to take the save on invuls... It's definitely not going to be across the whole damn army.
I assume you mean you got chunked by Plasma, which brings your 2+ +1+1 back to a 4+ save and has the volume to burn you down even with invuls. You still want a few 2+ guys to tank generic Bolters and slightly heavier stuff like Heavy Bolters/Assault Cannons and stuff like that with -2ap.
In general we actually see a fair bit of screening on the front - the back only starts to leave space once you hit T3 and there's been a lot of scuffling and they're trying to move out of their deployment zone. The difference is the Kellermorph usually goes after a weak obsec unit that isnt going to chunk it stupidly.
5 bolter boys shooting on a 4+; 10A, 5H, 3W, 2F, 2D, 2W left.
I almost never send Kellermorph after a character, that's nearly suicide and seldom gets the kill.
Alternatively, back when I played the Cog Drop, the Kellermorph sits between all of my Neophytes to give them a rr1s to hit, so usually nestled in the middle but not center of the formation. Usually only a handful of models infront of it to prevent Auspex and charges with luck.
Not that I've played Cult recently so, take with salt.
If you're going to try Helix, try with the car trick - dont overload, just bring 1 and stock up. Sounds stupid, but stock up with Abberants. I have a feeling it works a lot better than people expect. Unfortunately no run and charge strategem. Leave the Hypermorph at home, and watch people curse trying to fight through DG with DR and 4+ FNP. Overload with another DS charging unit for best effect. TH + TH Spell = wounds all infantry on a 2+ (other than Custodes Bikers, busted (please do not swear)), making the Pick and Claws suddenly veeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeery strong. TBF, Hypermorphs were mainstays just because of how many A they get from the weapon, but because of how Knight/Dreadnought/Vehicle heavy last edition was, Saw Acolytes were always the better option. Now that we have a lot of elites instead, and Pick/Claw boys gets almost as many A as Hypermorphs did at better AP and similar damage... I think the Abbys are better than ever before, just expensive compared to what we're used to. But since almsot every thing else sucks anyway, its not like we have a wealth of options to splurge points on.
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Post by Gunnerside on Feb 11, 2021 12:24:27 GMT
Some conclusions after playing a couple of more games: Some modifications for the current iteration: - Dropped from the list: Scions, Kelermorph and Neophytes
- All Rock saws changed to Rock Cutters for their ability to slay elite infantry. A primus added to compensate for the -1 to hit.
- Added another MSU Acolyte squad instead of the Neo's
- Added a Bike squad for early mobily for secondary scoring and objective grabbing / potentially charging vehicles with Psycich Stimulus
- Added a Demolisher Tank Commander for AM Patrol HQ. While being a juicy target, he still gives some good options with "Vengance for Cadia" vs Chaos (DG, Deamons etc)
- Added a 30 man conscript squad. They can potentially get 2+ saves vs ranged (Psychic Barrier from Astropath, Take Cover strat, and cover from light cover terrain). They are also fearless when within 6" of the Patriarch. Can be use to clog up the midboard or screen off the backfield.
- Using Broodcoven strat to give Primus "Alien Majesty" for 9" aura, and "Focus of Adoration" to Magus for HI potential with Acolytes.
The list: ++ Battalion Detachment 0CP (Tyranids - Genestealer Cults) [74 PL, 1,305pts, 10CP] ++
+ Configuration +
Cult Creed: The Twisted Helix
+ Stratagems +
Broodcoven [-1CP]
+ HQ +
Magus [5 PL, 85pts, -1CP]: Broodcoven Magus, Power: Might From Beyond, Power: Psychic Stimulus, Stratagem: The Cult's Psyche, Warlord Trait: Focus of Adoration
Patriarch [7 PL, 135pts]: Elixir of the Prime Specimen, Power: Mass Hypnosis, Power: Mutagenic Deviation, Warlord, Warlord Trait: Bio-alchemist
Primus [4 PL, 85pts]: Broodcoven Primus, Warlord Trait: Alien Majesty
+ Troops +
Acolyte Hybrids [9 PL, 190pts]: Cult Icon
. 8x Acolyte Hybrid: 8x Autopistol, 8x Blasting Charges, 8x Cultist Knife, 8x Rending Claw
. Acolyte Hybrid (Heavy Weapon): Autopistol, Heavy Rock Cutter
. Acolyte Hybrid (Heavy Weapon): Autopistol, Heavy Rock Cutter
. Acolyte Hybrid (Heavy Weapon): Autopistol, Heavy Rock Cutter
. Acolyte Hybrid (Heavy Weapon): Autopistol, Heavy Rock Cutter
. Acolyte Hybrid (Heavy Weapon): Autopistol, Heavy Rock Cutter
. Acolyte Hybrid (Heavy Weapon): Autopistol, Heavy Rock Cutter
. Acolyte Leader: Autopistol, Cultist Knife
Acolyte Hybrids [6 PL, 130pts]: Cult Icon
. 5x Acolyte Hybrid: 5x Autopistol, 5x Blasting Charges, 5x Cultist Knife, 5x Rending Claw
. Acolyte Hybrid (Heavy Weapon): Autopistol, Heavy Rock Cutter
. Acolyte Hybrid (Heavy Weapon): Autopistol, Heavy Rock Cutter
. Acolyte Hybrid (Heavy Weapon): Autopistol, Heavy Rock Cutter
. Acolyte Hybrid (Heavy Weapon): Autopistol, Heavy Rock Cutter
. Acolyte Leader: Autopistol, Cultist Knife
Acolyte Hybrids [6 PL, 130pts]: Cult Icon
. 5x Acolyte Hybrid: 5x Autopistol, 5x Blasting Charges, 5x Cultist Knife, 5x Rending Claw
. Acolyte Hybrid (Heavy Weapon): Autopistol, Heavy Rock Cutter
. Acolyte Hybrid (Heavy Weapon): Autopistol, Heavy Rock Cutter
. Acolyte Hybrid (Heavy Weapon): Autopistol, Heavy Rock Cutter
. Acolyte Hybrid (Heavy Weapon): Autopistol, Heavy Rock Cutter
. Acolyte Leader: Autopistol, Cultist Knife
Acolyte Hybrids [3 PL, 40pts]
. 4x Acolyte Hybrid: 4x Autopistol, 4x Blasting Charges, 4x Cultist Knife, 4x Rending Claw
. Acolyte Leader: Autopistol, Cultist Knife
Acolyte Hybrids [3 PL, 40pts]
. 4x Acolyte Hybrid: 4x Autopistol, 4x Blasting Charges, 4x Cultist Knife, 4x Rending Claw
. Acolyte Leader: Autopistol, Cultist Knife
Acolyte Hybrids [3 PL, 40pts]
. 4x Acolyte Hybrid: 4x Autopistol, 4x Blasting Charges, 4x Cultist Knife, 4x Rending Claw
. Acolyte Leader: Autopistol, Cultist Knife
+ Fast Attack +
Achilles Ridgerunners [12 PL, 210pts]
. Achilles Ridgerunner: Flare Launcher, Heavy Mining Laser
. Achilles Ridgerunner: Flare Launcher, Heavy Mining Laser
. Achilles Ridgerunner: Flare Launcher, Heavy Mining Laser
Atalan Jackals [8 PL, 70pts]
. Atalan Jackal: Cultist Knife, Shotgun
. Atalan Jackal: Cultist Knife, Shotgun
. Atalan Jackal: Cultist Knife, Shotgun
. Atalan Jackal: Cultist Knife, Shotgun
. Atalan Leader: Cultist Knife, Shotgun
+ Dedicated Transport +
Goliath Truck [4 PL, 75pts]
Goliath Truck [4 PL, 75pts]
++ Patrol Detachment -2CP (Imperium - Astra Militarum) [36 PL, 695pts, -2CP] ++
+ Configuration +
Detachment Command Cost [-2CP]
Regimental Doctrine: Brood Brothers
+ HQ +
Tank Commander [12 PL, 195pts]: Heavy Bolter, Turret-mounted Demolisher Siege Cannon
+ Troops +
Conscripts [7 PL, 150pts]
. 30x Conscript: 30x Lasgun
+ Elites +
Astropath [2 PL, 35pts]: Psychic Barrier, Telepathica Stave
Bullgryns [15 PL, 315pts]
. Bullgryn: Bullgryn Maul, Slabshield
. Bullgryn: Bullgryn Maul, Slabshield
. Bullgryn: Bullgryn Maul, Slabshield
. Bullgryn: Bullgryn Maul, Slabshield
. Bullgryn: Bullgryn Maul, Slabshield
. Bullgryn: Brute Shield, Bullgryn Maul
. Bullgryn: Brute Shield, Bullgryn Maul
. Bullgryn: Brute Shield, Bullgryn Maul
. Bullgryn Bone 'ead: Bullgryn Maul, Slabshield
++ Total: [110 PL, 8CP, 2,000pts] ++
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Post by kazetanade on Feb 11, 2021 18:31:18 GMT
I can attest - my 2D weapons range has been suffering extremely badly these past few weeks vs DG, and I just heard that DA got another -1D in a banner somewhere, making their already hard to kill Terminators and BGVs pretty much king of the hill.
I'd still keep the Kellermorph because he's good against Primaris Marines sitting in a corner, Nurglings, Sisters, Harlequins, Poxwalkers, Scouts, and other such stuff in general. At worst, he's an EoAF point stashed away in a corner that no one's in.
A 2nd squad of RRs is for consistency and making use of smaller gun splitfire to setup for the 2nd unit. Personally dont think 1 unit has the kick or teeth, but if you have other things should still work just as well.
Let us know how the new one works - I concur on the Conscripts pull, but doesnt that fight with the Bullgryn for the same resources?
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Post by Gunnerside on Feb 11, 2021 21:18:50 GMT
(...) I concur on the Conscripts pull, but doesnt that fight with the Bullgryn for the same resources? Yes, kind of. I imagine using barrier on Bullgryns in any event if there is a chance that the opponent will focus high Ap, high Dmg, attacks on them. The Take cover strat is used when your opponent chooses to fire upon one of your AM units, so it is more flexible, and can easily be handed to the conscripts or Bullgryns as needed. |
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Post by Gunnerside on Aug 5, 2021 11:36:25 GMT
Latest version of the list: pastebin.com/ueeceQLr The TH detachment works well. I’ve been using it together with a Hive Cult detachment with Ridgerunners, but they have recently been disappointing in their performance- and given up too many Bring it Down points. The current BB patrol is untested, but I do believe it might work. Army wise it makes the Patriarch, Bullgryn and Tank Commander possible selections for To the Last units. The Patriarch makes all AM BB units immune to morale. The Scout sentinels makes scoring Engage On All Fronts easy. I have enough chaff for ROD or Banners, and the Astropath might even serve as a throwaway psycher for performing psychic secondaries. I believe the strenght in the list is its ability to reliably score secondaries, but I am slightly hesitant regarding the lack of firepower to deal with transports and ranged threats etc. Any feedback appreciated. |
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Post by kazetanade on Aug 22, 2021 19:14:51 GMT
I dont like non-AM Tank Commanders - 2D6 shots rerollable is an EXTREMELY large step in consistency which is why they're so good. In our codex, they're worse than RidgeRunners.
IIRC, we didnt get their points drop, so the BBTCs are kinda horrendous either way? (I have to check back old old old threads on the comparison, but basically if you can get Demolition Tank Commanders then they're pretty worth compared to RRs, but if we cant, TCs are pretty bad).
Scouts have always backfired for me - I use them to score T1 EoAF points, and the enemy uses them as a springboard or as a hostage, and from that hostage point I have to burn 2cp to not auto lose the game. They're really low on my "this is useful" list. But to give Sentinels credit - that T1 surprise Armored Sentinel Plasma shower is funny. I think it still works on old wording so you can never overheat on T1. The only other thing I've seen a good use for them is as a triple Heavy Flamer chassis that can go and really cause havoc on infantry armies on T1/T2 (people are less willing to charge you if it means eating 3D6 Heavy Flamers into chaff or even non-super tanky elites).
With your setup I think you pretty much give up on trying to trade out ranged threats - you take out the forward and front scorers and hope to trade up. It's not like GSC or BBIG have the right tools to do it anyway, since they get 0 access to all the things that makes IG pretty good.
Edit: does the patriarch actually give the bullgryns fearless? It crossed my mind that having a Bladed Cog setup could get some seriously tanky stuff onto the ground - Bullgryns with -1 to hit and +1 armor shrugs most things off, Abberants with an Iconward also shrugs a lot of things off, and the 5+++ can make a unit of Ridgerunners kinda hard to remove, and there's the eternal abominant with a 3++ just being a nuisance. Pair with that Demo TC you have tooling about, 2 RR units, it's a lot of damage.
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