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Post by Gunnerside on Jan 12, 2021 20:09:32 GMT
So I've been trying to see if I can make Bullgryns work for GSC, and the new FAQ and pointsdrops makes it even more interesting. The idea is for the Bullgrynns to provide some board presence and be a survivable anvil for the deep striking Acolytes to hammer. The Bullgryns are insanely survivable with their T5, 3W and 0+ 3++ save with the Psycich Barrier power and Take Cover strategem. The rest of the list is there to provide some firepower, early objective grabbing, stealing objectives with PA charges, and securing egage on all fronts / scramblers. The Neophytes usually go in the trucks, but the flamer acolytes can alternatively deploy in the trucks to help clear midboard scout-deployed units. The Patriarch may move up the board with the bullgryns to provide countercharges and t2 advance and charge oppurtunities, but that is matchup dependant.
This is the current iteration of the list, starting at 9 CP. Comments an critisism welcome:
Genestealer Cults Battalion Detachment ( 3CP - 1545PT )
SUB-FACTION: The Twisted Helix
HQ Jackal Alphus (75)
WARLORD: Patriarch (135)
TRAITS: The Twisted Helix: Bio-alchemist
PSYCHIC POWERS: Mass Hypnosis, Might From Beyond
RELICS: Elixir of the Prime Specimen
Primus (85)
TROOPS
Acolyte Hybrids (190)
8x Acolyte Hybrid
5x Acolyte Hybrid: Heavy rock saw
1x Acolyte Hybrid: Heavy rock saw, Cult icon
1x Acolyte Leader
Acolyte Hybrids (180)
8x Acolyte Hybrid
1x Acolyte Hybrid: Cult icon
5x Acolyte Hybrid: Heavy rock saw
1x Acolyte Leader
Acolyte Hybrids (55)
4x Acolyte Hybrid: Hand flamer
1x Acolyte Leader: Hand flamer
Acolyte Hybrids (55) 4x Acolyte Hybrid: Hand flamer
1x Acolyte Leader: Hand flamer
Neophyte Hybrids (60)
9x Neophyte Hybrid: Shotgun
1x Neophyte Leader: Autopistol, Chainsword
Neophyte Hybrids (60)
9x Neophyte Hybrid: Shotgun
1x Neophyte Leader: Autopistol, Chainsword
ELITES
Kelermorph (80)
RELICS: Oppressor’s Bane
STRATAGEMS: Grandsire's Gifts
FAST ATTACK
Achilles Ridgerunners (210)
3x Achilles Ridgerunner
Achilles Ridgerunners (210)
3x Achilles Ridgerunner
DEDICATED TRANSPORT
Goliath Truck (75)
Goliath Truck (75)
Brood Brothers Patrol Detachment ( 2CP - 455PT )
SUB-FACTION:
HQ
Primaris Psyker (50)
PSYCHIC POWERS: Nightshroud, Psychic Barrier
TROOPS
Militarum Tempestus Scions (45)
4x Militarum Tempestus Scion
1x Tempestor
Militarum Tempestus Scions (45)
4x Militarum Tempestus Scion
1x Tempestor
ELITES
Bullgryns (315)
1x Bullgryn Bone ’ead: Bullgryn maul
5x Bullgryn: Bullgryn maul
3x Bullgryn: Bullgryn maul, Brute shield
STRATAGEMS
Grandsire's Gifts (1-3CP)
Total Command Points: 6/15
Reinforcement Points: 0
Total Points: 2000/2000
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Post by No One on Jan 13, 2021 5:14:10 GMT
I don't see the point of the neos: 10 shotguns, meh. You could just have 9 acos instead if you cut the hand flamers, especially since you'll probably have to scramble with one.
Primus when you're TH and just using PA for charges...eh.
Definitely think you want stim+crouchling on patty as TH: the 8+D6" from a transport/counter charge on board is very good for charging midboard.
Concept seems workable: might want astropath as well for the two powers.
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Post by Gunnerside on Jan 13, 2021 12:05:54 GMT
I don't see the point of the neos: 10 shotguns, meh. You could just have 9 acos instead if you cut the hand flamers, especially since you'll probably have to scramble with one. Primus when you're TH and just using PA for charges...eh. Definitely think you want stim+crouchling on patty as TH: the 8+D6" from a transport/counter charge on board is very good for charging midboard. Concept seems workable: might want astropath as well for the two powers. Thanks for the feedback, appreciate it. Having reworked the list, it now includes more Rocksaw Acolytes which goes in to the trucks for counter charges, or advance + charge opportunities t2. Also added a couple of basic 10 man acolyte squads. I want to keep 1 shotgun Neophyte squad for screening and Lying In Wait objective sniping. I want to keep one PA rocksaw bomb on hand, but only having to use one PA Acolyte squad opens up some good use of PA'ing in the Kelermorph in t2/t3, in whichever turn the rocksaw bomb is not deployed. PA'ing in the Kelermorph has in my experience paid off in terms of clearing objectives in the movement phase, which makes it possible to deploy remaining deep strike squads on the objectives in the same phase.
Good point about psychic stimulus and Twisted Helix - included. I think I might miss having the Primus, but the ammount of obsec squads I can get for those 85 points, is definitely something to explore. Having one less character to give up 3pts under the Assasinate secondary objective is also a plus, which is why I probably won't include an Astropath.
Here's the revised list in its entirety: SUB-FACTION: The Twisted Helix HQ Jackal Alphus (75)
WARLORD: Patriarch (150)
1x Familiar
1x Patriarch
TRAITS: The Twisted Helix: Bio-alchemist
PSYCHIC POWERS: Mass Hypnosis, Might From Beyond, Psychic Stimulus
RELICS: The Crouchling
TROOPS Acolyte Hybrids (190)
7x Acolyte Hybrid
1x Acolyte Hybrid: Cult icon
6x Acolyte Hybrid: Heavy rock saw
1x Acolyte Leader
Acolyte Hybrids (130)
4x Acolyte Hybrid
1x Acolyte Hybrid: Cult icon
4x Acolyte Hybrid: Heavy rock saw
1x Acolyte Leader
Acolyte Hybrids (130)
4x Acolyte Hybrid
1x Acolyte Hybrid: Cult icon
4x Acolyte Hybrid: Heavy rock saw
1x Acolyte Leader
Acolyte Hybrids (80)
9x Acolyte Hybrid
1x Acolyte Leader
Acolyte Hybrids (80)
9x Acolyte Hybrid
1x Acolyte Leader
Neophyte Hybrids (60)
9x Neophyte Hybrid: Shotgun
1x Neophyte Leader: Autopistol, Chainsword
ELITES Kelermorph (80)
RELICS: Oppressor’s Bane
STRATAGEMS: Grandsire's Gifts
FAST ATTACK Achilles Ridgerunners (210)
3x Achilles Ridgerunner
Achilles Ridgerunners (210)
3x Achilles Ridgerunner
DEDICATED TRANSPORT
Goliath Truck (75)
Goliath Truck (75)
Brood Brothers Patrol Detachment ( 2CP - 455PT ) SUB-FACTION: HQ
Primaris Psyker (50)
PSYCHIC POWERS: Nightshroud, Psychic Barrier
TROOPS
Militarum Tempestus Scions (45)
4x Militarum Tempestus Scion
1x Tempestor
Militarum Tempestus Scions (45)
4x Militarum Tempestus Scion
1x Tempestor
ELITES
Bullgryns (315)
1x Bullgryn Bone ’ead: Bullgryn maul
5x Bullgryn: Bullgryn maul
3x Bullgryn: Bullgryn maul, Brute shield
STRATAGEMS
Grandsire's Gifts (1-3CP)
Total Command Points: 6/15
Reinforcement Points: 0
Total Points: 2000/2000
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Post by Gunnerside on Jan 19, 2021 20:42:05 GMT
So I got to play the list versus the new Death Guard, (Morty + Plaguemarine spam). Before the game i did some tweaking: The 2x barebone 10x Acolyte squads were both reduced to MSU, and I added a squad of 5x Jackals and a demo cache to one of the transports, because points. The Jackals are there purely to secure an early turn 1 2pts for engage on all fronts, as this is easily done by advancing (22" with Ridgerunner flares, and +2 with twisted Helix) to one of the furtherst board quarters. Alternatively the jackals can screen the ridgerunners and bullgryns against t1/2 alpha close combat threats, if needed. The game against DG was on the mission "Battle Lines" 22 in the Tournament book, and I won pretty handedly with a score of 80 to 50 (without painting scores). The secondaries I chose were WWSWF (Bullgryns and 2x Ridgerunner squads) Engage on all fronts, and scramblers. Overall I really like how the list plays. Each units has its purpose, plenty of actions available, and it gives up few secondaries, while packing a punch in both cc and ranged. The Bullgryns present a clear and present danger which cannot be ignored, and soaks plenty of shots that would otherwise be directed at the transports and riderunners. I took down Morty in turn 3 with a combination of ridge runners and rock saw acolytes, after the Bullgryns had survived a full onslaught from him (the three remaining Bullgryn models disengaged and heroically hid the rest of the game to ensure full WWSWF points  ). While the -1 damage disgustingly resilience really hurts the rock saws, the number of attacks and multiple d6 dmg mining lasers, with +1 to wound from strat, still does som work over a few turns. Twisted Helix Acolytes being S5 also helped in general vs DG, as they wound on 4+ vs plaguemarines, and 5+ vs mortarion. I am considering adding mental onslaught instead of mass hypnosis on the Patriach, and I am also wondering if I could get more out of another warlord trait. Any comments, thoughts or suggestions? Here's the updated list.
SUB-FACTION: The Twisted Helix
HQ
Jackal Alphus (75)
WARLORD: Patriarch (150)
1x Familiar
1x Patriarch
TRAITS: The Twisted Helix: Bio-alchemist
PSYCHIC POWERS: Mass Hypnosis, Might From Beyond, Psychic Stimulus
RELICS: The Crouchling
TROOPS
Acolyte Hybrids (190)
7x Acolyte Hybrid
1x Acolyte Hybrid: Cult icon
6x Acolyte Hybrid: Heavy rock saw
1x Acolyte Leader
Acolyte Hybrids (130)
4x Acolyte Hybrid
1x Acolyte Hybrid: Cult icon
4x Acolyte Hybrid: Heavy rock saw
1x Acolyte Leader
Acolyte Hybrids (130)
4x Acolyte Hybrid
1x Acolyte Hybrid: Cult icon
4x Acolyte Hybrid: Heavy rock saw
1x Acolyte Leader
Acolyte Hybrids (40)
5x Acolyte Hybrid
1x Acolyte Leader
Acolyte Hybrids (40)
5x Acolyte Hybrid
1x Acolyte Leader
Neophyte Hybrids (60)
9x Neophyte Hybrid: Shotgun
1x Neophyte Leader: Autopistol, Chainsword
ELITES
Kelermorph (80)
RELICS: Oppressor’s Bane
STRATAGEMS: Grandsire's Gifts
FAST ATTACK
Achilles Ridgerunners (210)
3x Achilles Ridgerunner
Achilles Ridgerunners (210)
3x Achilles Ridgerunner Atalan Jackals 5x Shotgun, Cultist knife (70)
DEDICATED TRANSPORT
Goliath Truck (85), Cache of demolition charges
Goliath Truck (75)
Brood Brothers Patrol Detachment ( 2CP - 455PT )
SUB-FACTION:
HQ
Primaris Psyker (50)
PSYCHIC POWERS: Nightshroud, Psychic Barrier
TROOPS
Militarum Tempestus Scions (45)
4x Militarum Tempestus Scion
1x Tempestor
Militarum Tempestus Scions (45)
4x Militarum Tempestus Scion
1x Tempestor
ELITES
Bullgryns (315)
1x Bullgryn Bone ’ead: Bullgryn maul
5x Bullgryn: Bullgryn maul
3x Bullgryn: Bullgryn maul, Brute shield
STRATAGEMS
Grandsire's Gifts (1-3CP)
Total Command Points: 6/15
Reinforcement Points: 0
Total Points: 2000/2000
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Post by hiveoverall on Jan 25, 2021 7:32:00 GMT
Is the +1 to wound the strat from vigilus ? Congrats for the win against a brand new codex with busted morty
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Post by No One on Jan 25, 2021 10:28:03 GMT
Is the +1 to wound the strat from vigilus ? No, it's the +1 to wound on mining lasers in PA. |
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Post by Gunnerside on Jan 26, 2021 10:17:15 GMT
Is the +1 to wound the strat from vigilus ? No, it's the +1 to wound on mining lasers in PA. Correct. I have however considered adding the TH PA psychic power for more +1 to wound capabilities. That would however require me to give up Mass Hypnosis, as i really want to keep Might from Beyond and Psychic Stimulus. |
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Post by hiveoverall on Jan 26, 2021 13:25:58 GMT
No, it's the +1 to wound on mining lasers in PA. Correct. I have however considered adding the TH PA psychic power for more +1 to wound capabilities. That would however require me to give up Mass Hypnosis, as i really want to keep Might from Beyond and Psychic Stimulus. Forgot about that power, good idea ! This power is (in the current meta) really good IMHO, I would trade mass hypno for it. Mass hypno is goo, but doesn't enable your troops to get through the really tough infantry units we now see SM, DG, necrons and custodes bring rountinely. |
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Post by Gunnerside on Jan 27, 2021 8:05:47 GMT
Correct. I have however considered adding the TH PA psychic power for more +1 to wound capabilities. That would however require me to give up Mass Hypnosis, as i really want to keep Might from Beyond and Psychic Stimulus. Forgot about that power, good idea ! This power is (in the current meta) really good IMHO, I would trade mass hypno for it. Mass hypno is goo, but doesn't enable your troops to get through the really tough infantry units we now see SM, DG, necrons and custodes bring rountinely. Another benefit that comes to mind is that the Patriach does 4dmg flat on 5s and 6s (with full rerolls on Monsterous Rending Claws) against those targets with my current WL trait. |
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Post by kazetanade on Jan 28, 2021 9:04:21 GMT
Not sold on THs +1 to wound vs Infantry in general, unless running rending claws blobs and not Saws. They're really good for ClawBlobs.
Esp since we lost vigilus +1 to wound, BC isnt that great anymore for them.
Too bad THs fight again is only for Abbys.
Have you had to run this into any other midfield control armies like Incept/Bladeguard blobs or Necron SK phalanx?
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Post by kazetanade on Jan 28, 2021 9:29:30 GMT
Rereading it, I'm wondering if you could use a 2nd psyker instead of the Jackal Alphus. +1 to hit is not bad ofc, but I often find that I rather use the RRs to secure ground and even with +1 to hit there's too much variance on their performance with D3 shots and D6 damage.
(I found trucks to be to my detriment instead of to my benefit, facing off against shooting armies in general).
So instead of the Alphus, you'd have a Magus and a Patty, the Magus would carry Crouchling and key spells, Patty would carry Helix relic and the general +stats WLT for a sizeable beatstick.
If me memory is correct, that combo gives him S7, 8A, T6, W7. So hits very hard and ripe for suicide trading. Will tear through DG terminators like butter?
(In general i do not like it as the army has enough difficulty hitting combat, and after many games in 8th i often do not find him able to get into combat safely and often am on the losing end if he goes into combat a turn or 2 on the drop).
WWSWF is a horrible objective if your next 2 are Ridgerunner units - in my experience they will die easily and anyone who understands fundamentals will ignore the Bullgryns, denying you 10/15 and giving you the centre unless they can hurt your bullgryns. The other stuff is preference, but this one is an objective "I think this is bad".
The play with Kellermorph is great - its one of his best strengths. I also have run the same with a sanctus to tag Blast platforms to stop them shooting thereafter. Ita sadly not relevant when people don't bring Blast too often.
One thing that works super well for IG that we can replicate is Plasma Squads in Strategic Reserves, if you want to give that a try. They get 18" RF range though so makes a bit of a difference.
Not sure what else can really be said. Abbys have potential if they weren't so damn exp, but otherwise you're running with workable tools and just need to trade effectively. Pick sharper objectives and you have a possible game on hand.
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Post by Gunnerside on Jan 28, 2021 15:54:18 GMT
Thanks for the feedback. Unfortuanetly I have not been able to play the list against anything other than DG and BA due to Covid lockdown atm. So what I could do is remove the Alphus, the Jackal Squad, a demo cache and the Primaris Psycher, while adding a Magus, a flamer to the Neophytes (because of 5 points to spare), an Astropath to cast psychich barrier on the Bullgryns, Tempestor prime w/rod and add 2x Plasmaguns and plasmapistols to the 2x Scions. This will give the Scions enough firepower and rerolls to reliably kill a primaris squad on the turn they deep strike. The Plasmaguns could be switched for meltaguns if DG or vehicles becomes exceedingly common in the meta. The MSU Acolytes and Neophytes will have to function as action monkeys, while the Patriarch will be an absolute combat monster in addition to ensuring that the units are immune to morale. It will give me 1 more character to potentially give up a total of 15 pts on assasinate, but I think I'll manage to prevent that somewhat. This is what the list would look like: Tyranids - Strikeforce - Grand Tournament ( 8CP - 2000PT - 0PT ) Genestealer Cults Battalion Detachment ( 3CP - 1465PT ) SUB-FACTION: The Twisted Helix HQ
WARLORD: Patriarch (135)
TRAITS: The Twisted Helix: Bio-alchemist
PSYCHIC POWERS: Mental Onslaught, Mutagenic Deviation
RELICS: Elixir of the Prime Specimen
Magus (85) PSYCHIC POWERS: Might From Beyond, Psychic Stimulus STRATAGEMS: The Cult's Psyche
TROOPS Acolyte Hybrids (190) 7x Acolyte Hybrid 1x Acolyte Hybrid: Cult icon 6x Acolyte Hybrid: Heavy rock saw 1x Acolyte Leader Acolyte Hybrids (130) 4x Acolyte Hybrid 1x Acolyte Hybrid: Cult icon 4x Acolyte Hybrid: Heavy rock saw 1x Acolyte Leader Acolyte Hybrids (130) 4x Acolyte Hybrid 1x Acolyte Hybrid: Cult icon 4x Acolyte Hybrid: Heavy rock saw 1x Acolyte Leader Acolyte Hybrids (40) 4x Acolyte Hybrid 1x Acolyte Leader Acolyte Hybrids (40) 4x Acolyte Hybrid 1x Acolyte Leader Neophyte Hybrids (65) 1x Neophyte Hybrid: Flamer 8x Neophyte Hybrid: Shotgun 1x Neophyte Leader: Autopistol, Chainsword ELITES Kelermorph (80) RELICS: Oppressor’s Bane STRATAGEMS: Grandsire's Gifts FAST ATTACK Achilles Ridgerunners (210) 3x Achilles Ridgerunner Achilles Ridgerunners (210) 3x Achilles Ridgerunner DEDICATED TRANSPORT Goliath Truck (75) Goliath Truck (75) Brood Brothers Patrol Detachment ( 2CP - 535PT ) HQ Tempestor Prime (45) Tempestus command rod TROOPS Militarum Tempestus Scions (70) 2x Militarum Tempestus Scion 2x Militarum Tempestus Scion: Plasma gun 1x Tempestor: Plasma pistol Militarum Tempestus Scions (70) 2x Militarum Tempestus Scion 2x Militarum Tempestus Scion: Plasma gun 1x Tempestor: Plasma pistol ELITES Astropath (35) PSYCHIC POWERS: Psychic Barrier Bullgryns (315) 1x Bullgryn Bone ’ead: Bullgryn maul 5x Bullgryn: Bullgryn maul 3x Bullgryn: Bullgryn maul, Brute shield STRATAGEMS The Cult's Psyche (1CP) Grandsire's Gifts (1-3CP) Total Command Points: 7/15 Reinforcement Points: 0 Total Points: 2000/2000 |
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Post by kazetanade on Jan 28, 2021 16:33:49 GMT
Mmmm. It works in the back of my head. I'm not sure if you could work out a Scions Command Squad instead of another Scions Troop squad though just to saturate the Plasma a bit more on the other drop. Having another 8 Plasma shots on 3+ is IMO a better investment than the 1 Ridgerunner, assuming points are tight, but they're pretty interchangeable since the RR also gives you more map presence where you need it.
Having the action monkeys will be helpful also when you need to screen out your deployment zone - sometimes a drop like Blightlords or Deathshroud terminators in your deployment zone will be the end of you, since you have nothing that can deal with it. So there's nothing wrong with having some redundant bodies blocking space and doing generic things for you.
Give it a spin and let us know how well it works.
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Post by Hive Bahamut on Jan 29, 2021 6:35:35 GMT
I really like this idea. Dump all the buffers and lean into the MSU. Using the Scions you create a mirror effect that lets you respond with melee or shooting, or both. Against death-ball armies it doesn't matter if they wiped a unit or two or 3, it was at most 10 models. I think the Saws and Plasma is the more flexible for sure, and that sort of speaks to the list. Right from blip time to end of game the options are endless. Very fun cat and mouse idea, especially for Deathguard.
I think this is where the meat is for any GSC ideas until codex. Bullgryn make Aberrants look like they showed up late, undressed, and forgot their tools.
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Post by Gunnerside on Jan 29, 2021 8:01:12 GMT
Thanks for the feedback and list crunching, all. There’s a few post lock-down tournaments lined up in a couple of months, so I’ll bring this list and see how it does. Looking forward to it 👍
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). While the -1 damage disgustingly resilience really hurts the rock saws, the number of attacks and multiple d6 dmg mining lasers, with +1 to wound from strat, still does som work over a few turns. Twisted Helix Acolytes being S5 also helped in general vs DG, as they wound on 4+ vs plaguemarines, and 5+ vs mortarion.
