2k True Nidzilla ALL IN

[zimko]

If we can't be at the top of the meta... lets at least be gatekeepers. Lets shove all our best monsters in our opponent's face and see how they handle it.

Kraken Battalion
HQ
Swarmlord: Paroxysm, Psychic Scream
Neurothrope: Warlord, Resonance Barb, Catalyst
Troops
10 Hormagaunts
3 Rippers
3 Rippers
Elites
Lictor
Lictor
Maleceptor: Onslaught
3 Venomthropes
Fast Attack
Dimachaeron
Dimachaeron
Dimachaeron
Heavy Support
Scythed Hierodule: Dermic Symbiosis
Scythed Hierodule: Dermic Symbiosis

It's nothing complicated. Just 5 monsters with 18 wounds and 5++ saves and 2 with 12 wounds and 4++ saves. Access to -1 to hit aura and -1 str of incoming weapons aura for turn 1. Kraken stratagem and Swarmlord provide speed to get 2 of the Dima's into combat on turn 1 if we go first. All these T7 and T8 bodies will capitalize on the -1 strength aura to make melta weapons and str 4 weapons -1 to wound.

This list is literally just a damage check for your opponent. Can they deal with it? It still has 2 Lictors, a unit of hormagaunts and venomthropes to try and get scramblers so we're not just completely giving up on secondaries here. Obviously we're allowing our opponent to max against our monsters but that can't really be helped.

Paroxysm I think is a key spell against some marine armies. I've seen a lot of marine players using 'you fight last' abilities that make it very difficult to charge into their aggressors or bladeguard. With paroxysm we should be able to negate that ability.

[TheDeepestShadow]

I also converged on this exact list as one variation after you replied on my thread about the necessity of an Exocrine, though I ended up picking Synaptic Lure over Paroxysm. Since Kraken can fall back and charge I feel like it gets the least use out of Paroxysm of all the fleets, especially when running Dimas since they can't really get wrapped anyways.

Another variation I was debating on was if I don't take Synaptic Lure, would Prey Sight + Metamorphic Regrowth be worth losing the advancing/fall back shenanigans of Kraken? I took this in previous games but I'm definitely leaning in Kraken now since it seems more reliable to get into combat quickly.

[zimko]

Paroxysm is a meta call. If you're not running into people using 'fight last' abilities then you wont need it. I run into a lot (both against marines and a dark eldar friend) and it can be quite annoying to charge into aggressors and get punched out before I get to attack.

I don't think Prey Sight is that valuable with Dimas since they get full rerolls to hit. Regrowth might be ok but it's not worth losing the value of being able to fallback and charge. Plus the kraken stratagem will allow you to get 2 Dimas into melee on turn 1 if you go first.

[beetlejuice]

Nov 27, 2020 16:34:39 GMT zimko said:

Paroxysm is a meta call. If you're not running into people using 'fight last' abilities then you wont need it. I run into a lot (both against marines and a dark eldar friend) and it can be quite annoying to charge into aggressors and get punched out before I get to attack.

I don't think Prey Sight is that valuable with Dimas since they get full rerolls to hit. Regrowth might be ok but it's not worth losing the value of being able to fallback and charge. Plus the kraken stratagem will allow you to get 2 Dimas into melee on turn 1 if you go first.

I like the list but paroxysm still doesn’t help vs judiciar If that’s what’s troubling since his ability isn’t just fight last but makes you ineligble to fight until all others have done so.

[zimko]

Nov 27, 2020 16:57:44 GMT beetlejuice said:

Nov 27, 2020 16:34:39 GMT zimko said:

Paroxysm is a meta call. If you're not running into people using 'fight last' abilities then you wont need it. I run into a lot (both against marines and a dark eldar friend) and it can be quite annoying to charge into aggressors and get punched out before I get to attack.

I don't think Prey Sight is that valuable with Dimas since they get full rerolls to hit. Regrowth might be ok but it's not worth losing the value of being able to fallback and charge. Plus the kraken stratagem will allow you to get 2 Dimas into melee on turn 1 if you go first.

I like the list but paroxysm still doesn’t help vs judiciar If that’s what’s troubling since his ability isn’t just fight last but makes you ineligble to fight until all others have done so.

Paroxysm has the exact same wording. And Paroxysm also says that if 2 units are under similar effects, then the active player gets to choose the order. So in this case, I'd cast Paroxysm on the Aggressors, the Judiciar would use his ability on the Dima, and since I'm the active player then the Dima fights before the Aggressors.

[TheDeepestShadow]

Nov 27, 2020 17:08:34 GMT zimko said:

Nov 27, 2020 16:57:44 GMT beetlejuice said:

I like the list but paroxysm still doesn’t help vs judiciar If that’s what’s troubling since his ability isn’t just fight last but makes you ineligble to fight until all others have done so.

Paroxysm has the exact same wording. And Paroxysm also says that if 2 units are under similar effects, then the active player gets to choose the order. So in this case, I'd cast Paroxysm on the Aggressors, the Judiciar would use his ability on the Dima, and since I'm the active player then the Dima fights before the Aggressors.

The original wording of the Judiciar from the Indomitus rules were the same as Paroxysm, but the SM codex updated the wording of the Judiciar's ability to trump everything including the Counter-Offensive strat, whereas Paroxysm was clarified not to in some FAQ. That being said, I don't have the SM codex in front of me for the exact wording, and if the interaction works how you have described, then there are alot of people playing it wrong since I'm pretty sure I've heard on various podcasts about how the Judiciar's mechanic is superior.

EDIT: This is from a secondhand source, but this seems to be the key difference:

Old Judiciar: At the start of each Fight phase, select one enemy unit within 6" of this model. That unit cannot fight until all other eligible units have done so that phase.
Current Judiciar: At the start of the Fight phase, you can select one enemy unit within 3" of this model. That unit is not eligible to fight this phase until after all eligible units from your army have done so.

Since it explicitly says your army, referring to the SM player, Paroxysm would not affect this since it just says all other units that are able.

[zimko]

If the new version is only 3" then it's not that big of a threat anymore unless they have a way to make it 6".

[cmob208]

I've also been thinking along similar lines - I think Nidzilla is definitely a legit way to go. I think it's quite strong against Marines particularly. I've played 4 nidzilla games with similar lists to this, altering the list a bit as I've gone. 2-0 against marines (like pretty early and devastating victories), 1-0 against Genestealer cults, and ended a game early that I felt confident I would win against Sisters. My current iteration is two detachments - essentially your list minus one dimachaeron and minus a maleceptor, and a kronos patrol with neurothrope and two exocrines. Instead of Kraken though, I've been running a custom hive fleet with metabolic hyper-acceleration and prey sight. It's nice always hitting on everything and hyper-acceleration can somewhat mitigate kraken. I can sometimes get two T1 charges with onslaught and a good advance roll. As you mention though, I do lose out on the Kraken strat, which might be worth considering. My current thinking is that fall back and charge isn't that valuable, as opponents probably won't want to stay in combat with me... I guess it could be useful if I got charged last turn and I'm on a few wounds though to fight first. So open to being convinced to switch to Kraken. I like the Exocrines because they are also monsters, so fit in with the T8, hard to kill scheme, but provide some powerful fire support and can sit on objectives in the backfield. Sometimes you need to shoot something and then charge (like a transport, or clearing a screen), so I like having that capability. Overall though, I think anything in this general Nidzilla scheme is quite solid. Hits marines hard, and Scythed Hierodules are your main anti-horde.

[No One]

TheDeepestShadow said:

whereas Paroxysm was clarified not to in some FAQ.

Fun fact: that was a BRB FAQ for 8th, so no longer exists, because GW didn't feel like porting any BRB FAQs that still applied .

EDIT: This is from a secondhand source, but this seems to be the key difference:

Old Judiciar: At the start of each Fight phase, select one enemy unit within 6" of this model. That unit cannot fight until all other eligible units have done so that phase.
Current Judiciar: At the start of the Fight phase, you can select one enemy unit within 3" of this model. That unit is not eligible to fight this phase until after all eligible units from your army have done so.

Since it explicitly says your army, referring to the SM player, Paroxysm would not affect this since it just says all other units that are able.

As far as I'm concerned, they're both 'Fight last' abilities, and variations in wording aside, the BRB is very clear on how those are handled.

zimko said:

If the new version is only 3" then it's not that big of a threat anymore unless they have a way to make it 6".

Yeah, that's been my thoughts on it too (and I don't think they do, because it's not an Aura). SW can threaten it with both 6" HI and Armour of Russ, but outside them, don't think it's much of a concern.

[TheDeepestShadow]

Ah right, the 8th Ed FAQs don't really apply anymore, it's still hard to remember this for whatever reason. In any case, even if it does trump Paroxysm because of slightly different wording, like you both said the reduced range makes it much less of a concern. The SM players I know do not bother including him since they end up finding the points are more useful elsewhere, and the one time I did play against a Judiciar the ability didn't really affect the outcome of the combat.

[zimko]

Well, in light of this, I will change paroxysm to the kraken power for rerolling charges.

[zimko]

LVO has been cancelled and that is where I was going to take this list. I have no GTs or Majors to go to in the near future. Local RTTs are also temporarily halted. So I'll just keep building and painting models in anticipation for meta changes or maybe our future codex.