Making Gorgon Sexy Again

[aekiel]

Please talk me out of this. I know it's a bad idea but I just can't help myself. I want to make the lesser used Hive Fleets good again and I think I've found a way, but I need to have the flaws pointed out to me otherwise I can just talk myself back into it again.

So here's the idea. The meta is pretty heavily saturated with Space Marines at the moment. Space Marines that feature a 3+ armour save very heavily. Before the Forgeworld update we didn't really have many options to deal with this. We had the Exocrine, which is still king in my mind, and the Hive Tyrant/Swarmlord/Broodlord, all of whom relied on melee weapons and all of whom would get wiped pretty easily if we just threw them up the field, giving up 9VP worth of Bring It Down and Abhor the Witch when they are inevitably wiped off the board on turn 3/4.

So I've come up with a plan. It still bleeds Bring It Down like it's going out of style, but it's got the potential for covering a bunch of weaknesses without giving too much in the way of Abhor the Witch away.

Basically, we take advantage of Hive Fleet Gorgon's psychic power, Poisonous Influence, which gives a 9" aura of an additional AP-1 to melee weapons around the psyker. We put this on a Malceptor that we then send as a mobile defensive and offensive support bubble to accompany a Dimachaeron and Scythed Hierodule. Poisonous Influence is there to bring these two wonderful units to AP-4 on all of their melee attacks, which means any wounds that get through do not get an armour save and will delete 90% of Space Marines. The Maleceptor having it means it gets the natural +1 to psychic tests, I get to run a 2 deny/4++ unit up the middle of the board and use Encephalic Diffusion to bring melta rifles down to S7 against the Dima/Hierodule.

These three models launch themselves up the board with the help of Metabolic Overdrive and the Swarmlord (who has Onslaught), and serve as multiple big Distraction Carnifexes that can potentially get a T1 charge off and do some damage while our Exocrines sit at the back doing their thing and our troops head out into the centre to claim objectives. The enemy should be too busy dealing with the big bugs in its front lines to focus too much on the troops Exocrines that are actually scoring the points.

Secondaries are Engage on all Fronts, Deploy Scramblers and whatever seems reasonable against the specific army.

Here's the readable list

SPOILER: Click to show

Hive Fleet Gorgon Battalion

Neurothrope - Catalyst
Swarmlord - Onslaught, Paroxysm

9x Termagants
10x Termagants
10x Termagants

Lictor
Maleceptor

Dimachaeron w/Accelerated Digestion

Scythed Hierodule w/Dermic Symbiosis

Hive Fleet Kronos Patrol

Neurothrope - Symbiostorm w/Resonance Barb

3x Ripper Swarms

6x Hive Guard w/Impaler Cannons
Lictor

Exocrine
Exocrine

Here's the Battlescribe list

SPOILER: Click to show

++ Patrol Detachment -2CP (Tyranids) [39 PL, -2CP, 808pts] ++



+ Configuration +



Detachment CP [-2CP]



Hive Fleet: Kronos



+ HQ +



Neurothrope [5 PL, 95pts]: Power: Symbiostorm, Resonance Barb



+ Troops +



Ripper Swarms [2 PL, 36pts]

3x Ripper Swarm: 3x Claws and Teeth



+ Elites +



Hive Guard [12 PL, 300pts]

6x Hive Guard (Impaler): 6x Impaler Cannon



Lictor [2 PL, 37pts]: Flesh Hooks, Rending Claws



+ Heavy Support +



Exocrine [9 PL, 170pts]



Exocrine [9 PL, 170pts]



++ Battalion Detachment 0CP (Tyranids) [63 PL, 11CP, 1,191pts] ++



+ Configuration +



Battle Size [12CP]: 3. Strike Force (101-200 Total PL / 1001-2000 Points)



Detachment CP



Hive Fleet: Gorgon



+ Stratagems +



Progeny of the Hive [-1CP]



+ HQ +



Neurothrope [5 PL, 95pts]: Power: Catalyst, Power: Smite



The Swarmlord [14 PL, 270pts]: Power: Onslaught, Power: Paroxysm, Power: Smite, Warlord



+ Troops +



Termagants [3 PL, 54pts]

Termagant (Devourer): Devourer

9x Termagant (Fleshborer): 9x Fleshborer



Termagants [3 PL, 50pts]

10x Termagant (Fleshborer): 10x Fleshborer



Termagants [3 PL, 50pts]

10x Termagant (Fleshborer): 10x Fleshborer



+ Elites +



Lictor [2 PL, 37pts]: Flesh Hooks, Rending Claws



Maleceptor [9 PL, 170pts]: Massive Scything Talons, Power: Poisonous Influence, Power: Smite



+ Fast Attack +



Dimachaeron [12 PL, 230pts]

Adaptive Physiology: Accelerated Digestion



+ Heavy Support +



Scythed Hierodule [12 PL, 235pts]

Adaptive Physiology: Dermic Symbiosis



++ Total: [102 PL, 9CP, 1,999pts] ++



Created with BattleScribe (https://battlescribe.net)

[No One]

aekiel said:

Please talk me out of this. I know it's a bad idea but I just can't help myself. I want to make the lesser used Hive Fleets good again and I think I've found a way, but I need to have the flaws pointed out to me otherwise I can just talk myself back into it again.

Basically, the overall concept of the list is fine (though you are very lacking in troops and scoring, so don't think the list is quite fine yet...). The bit that Gorgon adds? Not so much. You list the issue:

Hive Tyrant/Swarmlord/Broodlord, all of whom relied on melee weapons and all of whom would get wiped pretty easily if we just threw them up the field

How does Gorgon help this? Not at all.

Damage isn't really the issue with our melee against non-invul marines, it's just dying in general. Gorgon RR 1s is nice, but if it's important you use voracious (especially since transhuman exists). And extra AP when you're already -3 is eh, especially for a power: 6+ to no save is a lot less impactful than 3+ to 4+, especially when you consider stuff like invuls or worse saves where it does nothing.

[aekiel]

Basically, the overall concept of the list is fine (though you are very lacking in troops and scoring, so don't think the list is quite fine yet...). The bit that Gorgon adds? Not so much. You list the issue:

How does Gorgon help this? Not at all.



Damage isn't really the issue with our melee against non-invul marines, it's just dying in general. Gorgon RR 1s is nice, but if it's important you use voracious (especially since transhuman exists). And extra AP when you're already -3 is eh, especially for a power: 6+ to no save is a lot less impactful than 3+ to 4+, especially when you consider stuff like invuls or worse saves where it does nothing.

Good points. I've dropped one of the Exocrines in favour of 3x15 units of Termagants in Gorgon and 2x10 units of Termagants in Kronos.

The primary idea I had for this list was to make the monsters the wave of deadliness that takes out the front line of Space Marines in a single round, then consolidating or overrunning into the back line to prevent them from moving forward. This frees up the Exocrine to take pot shots at particularly tough enemies and the Termagants to do their job mostly unmolested. This idea relies on two foundations, the first being the ability to get up in the enemy's face from the very beginning and having the deadliness to take out the front line without any retaliatory close combat.

The Swarmlord and our stratagems cover the former and Hive Fleet Gorgon covers the latter. Giving that detachment the rr1s to wound in melee means the Hierodule isn't going to need Voracious Appetite because it's likely to be wounding on 2s vs anything non-vehicle anyway. That allows the Dimachaeron to use VA if it needs it (though ideally it'll be going in vs Intercessors so it'll be wounding on 2+ as well). It allows us to spend that CP on more important units like the Exocrine or Hive Guard. I've done some quick mathhammering on it as well. Going from AP-3 to AP-4 means going from an average of 4 Intercessors dead to 5 Intercessors dead, which effectively forces Transhuman out early and often, sapping their CP in the process. Even if you roll poorly the Dimachaeron also has its Spinemaws to make up for it, getting that lovely 5+++ in the process. This is a big deal for Nids as it means we can consolidate into the unit behind or overrun to a more advantageous position, either protecting it through the enemy's round or forcing them to fall back.

Putting Poisonous Influence on the Maleceptor also means that all three big melee threats (and having three of them in the enemy's face means they've got a problem of target saturation where the Maleceptor is the least threatening thing to target) get to AP-4 as well as giving them the -1S to ranged attacks protection, making melta weapons much less of a threat. I typically don't see the Maleceptor heading up the field because they're usually sitting back protecting the castle, but using them as a forward buffing platform could be useful. Its T8/4++ is also quite nice so it's likely to survive a turn or two.

What I'm basically saying is that this list relies on killing enough of the enemy early that they aren't able to start scoring points while my Termagants sit on objectives and win me the game.

[No One]

aekiel said:

Giving that detachment the rr1s to wound in melee means the Hierodule isn't going to need Voracious Appetite because it's likely to be wounding on 2s vs anything non-vehicle anyway.

Again, if it's important (and probably even if it's not) and marines, you use voracious: because transhuman exists.

Putting Poisonous Influence on the Maleceptor also means that all three big melee threats (and having three of them in the enemy's face means they've got a problem of target saturation where the Maleceptor is the least threatening thing to target) get to AP-4 as well as giving them the -1S to ranged attacks protection, making melta weapons much less of a threat. I typically don't see the Maleceptor heading up the field because they're usually sitting back protecting the castle, but using them as a forward buffing platform could be useful. Its T8/4++ is also quite nice so it's likely to survive a turn or two.

What I'm basically saying is that this list relies on killing enough of the enemy early that they aren't able to start scoring points while my Termagants sit on objectives and win me the game.

So, again the idea seems OK with the 'cepter, though on thinking on it more I'd be concerned about range (14+D6 vs 24+2/3d6 and only 6" range...and 9" on AP-1).

But what does Gorgon add? With dimas big base, 12" move and scythed's lack of fly equivalent, you're often going to struggle to get past onto truly important damage units: killing an extra intecessor...doesn't matter. And unless they deployed poorly, you're unlikely to be in 'cepter range to get the extra AP on something like erads if you make it there, and you should 100% use voracious on anything important/gravis, so you get no benefit from Gorgon there either (and TBH, with flat 3 damage you should easily kill unless it's >3). So it's letting you kill an extra pleb, or probably not helpful because you've gone too deep into the lines. Killing an extra pleb's potentially important if it lets you overrun usefully, but with tail and spine-maw, you kill a 5 man on average. Extra AP does almost get you to the kill through transhuman with voracious, but then what're you specifically overrunning for? You can't make use of obscuring, you're close to the rest of your MCs because 9" range, and you (should: could be unfortunate in the 3" band) be getting encephalic as well. Consolidating into stuff, maybe, but with the big base I'm not sure how often you'd get an appreciable increase in distance (just due to how you can, to some extent just swing the base around the last model if you don't kill: killing then consolidating would be 100% better, but again, how much better?). And then they punch you and fall back, and if WS can even shoot (for 1 CP) and charge again.

On later turns, maybe it does more, but if they've let you sit in their face for a turn with all those MCs and you've got charges off with all those MCs, you're unlikely to need extra damage to close.

Basically, it does something. But I don't think it's something that you need, and the opportunity cost of your Fleet/psychic power doesn't seem worth it. Could you get more with 6+++/regen to survive T1 (because you have nothing apart from encephalic to protect you going 2nd, and some armies just don't care), onslaught with +1 to get in on more distant targets more reliably and then horror or scream on Swarmy?

[windwalkerranger]

Apologies for resurrecting this thread, but, I just noticed that (on wahapedia) gorgon psychic power works on quote: "friendly models" within 9 inch endquote. Is this wording the same in the codex? This is strange to me, so what happens if half of a warrior unit is covered by this and the other half isn't? And besides, all other hive-fleet specific psy powers only work on units of that particular hive fleet, but this one doesn't seem to have such a limitation. Can anyone confirm?

[beetlejuice]

Sept 8, 2021 16:33:52 GMT windwalkerranger said:

Apologies for resurrecting this thread, but, I just noticed that (on wahapedia) gorgon psychic power works on quote: "friendly models" within 9 inch endquote. Is this wording the same in the codex? This is strange to me, so what happens if half of a warrior unit is covered by this and the other half isn't? And besides, all other hive-fleet specific psy powers only work on units of that particular hive fleet, but this one doesn't seem to have such a limitation. Can anyone confirm?

you slow roll (or at least divide attacks) for those that are inside and outside of the aura respectively.

Doesn’t seem to be a hive fleet limitation, no. Gimmicky way to get genestealers/hormagaunts with scything talons to AP-3 (or 4 with strat) in a custom fleet.