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Post by beetlejuice on Dec 5, 2020 19:12:24 GMT
Why does no one target your zoans? They are prime bolter targets and only need to suffer 3W to lose 50% efficiency. Would be my first target for stray shots <S7. For 100 pts you can always get 2 more squads of gaunts if you don’t want to fill up zoans. Or 2CP for a kelermorph in auxiliary support det (same price as a patrol but without tax). That boy always delivers for me, either killing characters or 2W MSU
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Post by hiveoverall on Dec 5, 2020 20:11:26 GMT
zedan yep i had a game this afternoon vs ad mech and my malanthrope didn’t do much for my two hierodules and my dimachaeron. I think I will go like you with no spore cloud at all next game
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Post by zedan on Dec 5, 2020 22:00:08 GMT
Why does no one target your zoans? They are prime bolter targets and only need to suffer 3W to lose 50% efficiency. Would be my first target for stray shots <S7. For 100 pts you can always get 2 more squads of gaunts if you don’t want to fill up zoans. Or 2CP for a kelermorph in auxiliary support det (same price as a patrol but without tax). That boy always delivers for me, either killing characters or 2W MSU Usually they have a big bug problem when you give them 36 wounds of trouble. But I agree a savvy opponent should knock them down to 3. Just my observation with this list that they haven't been targets yet. Very interesting idea about the kelermorph I might just try that, thanks! |
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Post by kazetanade on Dec 6, 2020 5:00:16 GMT
-1 to hit is a lot more neutered now that penalties can't stack. The game is a lot less dangerous than before even before taking account terrain, so -1 specific isn't as important as it used to be.
I also reiterate that venoms are not cost efficient at saving whatever has been shot, and create most value when they themselves are shot instead of their charges. They're essentially trap units that can give you scrambler and create some value if you have no Dense on the table.
Malanthrope isn't worth it if you aren't running a gunline or super horde. It's primary value is stackinh both defensive buff and synapse in the same package, letting you use HQ slots elsewhere.
What happened to the Exocrene? The Exocrene is one of the core units of our codex now that it can reserves and it's a better candidate vs 3W targets unless you're looking at an invul (which is specifically Bladeguard or Wraith blades) . Particularly in Kronos, its performance will be head and shoulders above the barbed.
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Post by zedan on Dec 6, 2020 13:49:15 GMT
-1 to hit is a lot more neutered now that penalties can't stack. The game is a lot less dangerous than before even before taking account terrain, so -1 specific isn't as important as it used to be. I also reiterate that venoms are not cost efficient at saving whatever has been shot, and create most value when they themselves are shot instead of their charges. They're essentially trap units that can give you scrambler and create some value if you have no Dense on the table. Malanthrope isn't worth it if you aren't running a gunline or super horde. It's primary value is stackinh both defensive buff and synapse in the same package, letting you use HQ slots elsewhere. What happened to the Exocrene? The Exocrene is one of the core units of our codex now that it can reserves and it's a better candidate vs 3W targets unless you're looking at an invul (which is specifically Bladeguard or Wraith blades) . Particularly in Kronos, its performance will be head and shoulders above the barbed. Exocrene puts on more damage for the points? Absolutely agree no denying it. But making it kronos I need hq/troops for patrol which is more than the barbed for even swap and costs me 2cp. It cost a cp to move and shoot(effectively). It can take a cp to reserve it and finally is eh in melee. The way I'm running it is kraken to maximize my cp. He still does 12 2-3 dmg shots generally landing 6ish wounds but he can further land big damage in melee(even with his mediocre 4 attacks). I've only played 2 practice games with barbed and he has done well. Since secondaries are tough with this list in general he also is an *okay* wwswf target. Anyways as I said I have a spare 100pts so if you can restructure it to have better shooting and still okay psychic I am all ears haha. Trying to make nids work in general is always my top goal lol |
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Post by TheDeepestShadow on Dec 6, 2020 19:41:17 GMT
-1 to hit is a lot more neutered now that penalties can't stack. The game is a lot less dangerous than before even before taking account terrain, so -1 specific isn't as important as it used to be. I also reiterate that venoms are not cost efficient at saving whatever has been shot, and create most value when they themselves are shot instead of their charges. They're essentially trap units that can give you scrambler and create some value if you have no Dense on the table. Malanthrope isn't worth it if you aren't running a gunline or super horde. It's primary value is stackinh both defensive buff and synapse in the same package, letting you use HQ slots elsewhere. Since Dense Cover does not benefit models with 18+ wounds, I think that the venoms are still worth it for a FW monster heavy list, and for the rest of the units just gives you more effective Dense Cover to utilize. I agree that later in the game they provide more value if they're getting shot at, but they're mainly there to blunt first turn shooting so they only really need to be hidden during deployment. From my experience, the -1 bubble only really becomes irrelevant when against full hit rerolls, which currently would only be one unit designated by a Chapter Master in most cases in the Marine meta. I'm sure some Mathhammer may refute that but in practice I have greatly benefited from having marines shooting me on 4+ instead of 3+. The Malanthrope sadly does seem to be a total trap though outside of the situation you described. |
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Post by kazetanade on Dec 7, 2020 4:44:22 GMT
-1 to hit is a lot more neutered now that penalties can't stack. The game is a lot less dangerous than before even before taking account terrain, so -1 specific isn't as important as it used to be. I also reiterate that venoms are not cost efficient at saving whatever has been shot, and create most value when they themselves are shot instead of their charges. They're essentially trap units that can give you scrambler and create some value if you have no Dense on the table. Malanthrope isn't worth it if you aren't running a gunline or super horde. It's primary value is stackinh both defensive buff and synapse in the same package, letting you use HQ slots elsewhere. Since Dense Cover does not benefit models with 18+ wounds, I think that the venoms are still worth it for a FW monster heavy list, and for the rest of the units just gives you more effective Dense Cover to utilize. I agree that later in the game they provide more value if they're getting shot at, but they're mainly there to blunt first turn shooting so they only really need to be hidden during deployment. From my experience, the -1 bubble only really becomes irrelevant when against full hit rerolls, which currently would only be one unit designated by a Chapter Master in most cases in the Marine meta. I'm sure some Mathhammer may refute that but in practice I have greatly benefited from having marines shooting me on 4+ instead of 3+. The Malanthrope sadly does seem to be a total trap though outside of the situation you described. From memory, only Obscurred does not work for models with 18W or more. Dense works just fine IIRC - Dense also works on all models, whereas cover saves from terrain only works on Infantry/Beast/Swarm. -1 to hit does indeed affect normal shooting more - having access to only reroll 1s means there is no way to recover from rolling that 3 which is now a miss. From practical standpoint though, there will be a handful or less of times where most of the misses will actually be on the -1 to hit roll (3s for marines), which would be impactful enough to make a difference between a unit being dead or not, or crippled or not. (it happens, but not frequently with most weapon profiles). Add on the fact that Dense cover is generally quite available and easily procced for most units (unless my above is wrong), it reduces the value of Malan/Venoms. Also to reiterate - it's not that Venoms get value later on in the game from being shot. It's that they're most effective at producing value when they are being shot instead of whatever they're protecting. Simple comparison: 90pts of venoms to kill will absorb more fire and hence save more Genestealers/Monster wounds compared to the raw defensive value the -1 to hit creates. Basically, you'll lose 90pts to save like 60pts of Genestealers/MC wounds if they're shot, but lose 180pts to save the same 60pts through the -1 to hit (maths are wrong, just the example for clarity). You'd have to be able to protect most of your army with the aura, and lose nearly half of it for it to be a better trade (ie you've prevented more damage than the alternative) than the Venoms being shot at straight up. In practical sense, it makes more sense to prevent being shot at altogether or if not possible, to bring more threat with the same points you'd spend on venomthropes if you can, due to how little of the unit that aura saves. Also a matter of contention - the less guns an enemy has, the more effective that -1 to hit is against it. So if you're looking at an army list that is very lean and has *just enough points* to do the one thing, then -1 to hit really throws it off its game, even with rerolls (in fact, -1 to hit has much bigger impact on full rerolls and helps more since it blunts more damage, assuming you could survive in the first place). Reiterating yet again, Dense terrain being a thing or not plays a big impact on whether the localized -1 to hit of the venom/malan have any value or not. On the flip side, if you're looking at a real gunline teeming with guns, that -1 to hit is nearly worthless and better play/positioning to mitigate damage is mandatory to survive. The ONE EXCEPTION to this general rule is Gaunt spam, due to a fair number of reasons I am too tired to go into at length here. The other DIFFERENT CONSIDERATION is if you're stacking defensive buffs, making the -1 only one component of the overall strategy. When stacking defensive buffs, "the whole is greater than the sum of its parts", so Malaceptor/Malanthrope/Dynamic Camoflage/Jormungandr combination is viable play and an extreme example of stacking defensive buffs to be super effective at mitigating damage. This obvs doesnt apply to a Kraken list that needs to be mobile. |
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Post by kazetanade on Dec 7, 2020 5:11:18 GMT
-1 to hit is a lot more neutered now that penalties can't stack. The game is a lot less dangerous than before even before taking account terrain, so -1 specific isn't as important as it used to be. I also reiterate that venoms are not cost efficient at saving whatever has been shot, and create most value when they themselves are shot instead of their charges. They're essentially trap units that can give you scrambler and create some value if you have no Dense on the table. Malanthrope isn't worth it if you aren't running a gunline or super horde. It's primary value is stackinh both defensive buff and synapse in the same package, letting you use HQ slots elsewhere. What happened to the Exocrene? The Exocrene is one of the core units of our codex now that it can reserves and it's a better candidate vs 3W targets unless you're looking at an invul (which is specifically Bladeguard or Wraith blades) . Particularly in Kronos, its performance will be head and shoulders above the barbed. Exocrene puts on more damage for the points? Absolutely agree no denying it. But making it kronos I need hq/troops for patrol which is more than the barbed for even swap and costs me 2cp. It cost a cp to move and shoot(effectively). It can take a cp to reserve it and finally is eh in melee. The way I'm running it is kraken to maximize my cp. He still does 12 2-3 dmg shots generally landing 6ish wounds but he can further land big damage in melee(even with his mediocre 4 attacks). I've only played 2 practice games with barbed and he has done well. Since secondaries are tough with this list in general he also is an *okay* wwswf target. Anyways as I said I have a spare 100pts so if you can restructure it to have better shooting and still okay psychic I am all ears haha. Trying to make nids work in general is always my top goal lol Kraken Batt -SL -Neuro (WL) - 1 x 23 Termagants - 3 x 10 Termagants - 3 x Dimachareons Kronos Patrol -Neuro - 3 x 3 Rippers - 1 x Lictor - 1 x 6 Zoeys - 1 x Exocrene (Adaptive) 2000pts, 10CP start. It follows most of the core gameplan - some expendables to steal objectives, SL to sling or double move to steal. 1 bigger unit to move block or screen depending on requirement. 3 Dimas to be a (please do not swear). Lictor for scrambler and Rippers + Lictor for Engage/Linebreaker. Exocrene can start on the board since there's so many monsters, or go into reserves to avoid T1 damage and help for Engage/Linebreaker (majority of my test games, Exo are my consistent Engage or Linebreaker scorer, not Rippers). Zoeys to make sure you always score minimum primary and help vs midfield castle monsters like Bladeguard Vets + Apothecary nonsense. For smites, the 4th cast onwards is actually less likely than not to succeed - you want to keep it to 3 casts assuming you want consistent or relatively likely to succeed results (since you're paying for the ability to cast smite). That makes it the 3 Zoey/Neuro units, with an SL (or Neuro with Barbed) to try your luck if you want. The drawback is of course that the Exocrene absorbs more CP than the Barbed, but the added output and lesser pts cost I think is worth it since it gives you the ability to score secondaries much more consistently. Your list struggles on many of our common/standard secondaries, having to default to something like WWSWF which is a bad option for us in general. In this list, I can generally do Scramblers/Engage/Banners or Psychic Ritual, which means I do not need to rely on my opponent to make mistakes or even interact with them to score my points - I can focus purely on making the most impactful play turn by turn to deny him points, as I am relatively secured in that he himself cannot deny me points. If given the choice, I would actually run 2 Dimachaerons and buff up with a LOT of gaunts/Lictors/ Mawlocs to make map security a thing, but that's a playstyle choice which is quite influenced by stormcoil's batreps recently. You could also swap out a ripper for a Broodlord instead of a Neuro in kraken for more melee oomph, which is a good choice for brawling in general. My last test list is actually 2x5 Zoeys as the core of the list, with a gaunts and a strong shooting core. It feels pretty tanky and I often can draw or beat my opponents purely by outlasting them, but the output of the 2 units is really lacking and you're devoting nearly 25% of your entire list to them, and with 2 exocrenes and 1 HG shooting (all in Kronos) I still found myself often lacking the damage output to cut through the enemy's forward units ( usually invuls being my major problem). 2x4 is only 80pts better than 2x5 and is less consistent at helping damage since even light shooting can take you down to normal smite (you might as well bring 2x3 at that point and save 160pts for a whole gaunt squad). At the end of the day, the most effective form of damage mitigation is killing them - so you need to be able to kill their damage output, and not just tank it. In that sense, I found 2x5 and 3x5 to be completely excessive and unecessary, even if it will work as a gatekeeper or a sort of low-effort roll for fun type of game (or played alongside 180 Gaunt spam primarily). |
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Post by TheDeepestShadow on Dec 7, 2020 6:32:59 GMT
Since Dense Cover does not benefit models with 18+ wounds, I think that the venoms are still worth it for a FW monster heavy list, and for the rest of the units just gives you more effective Dense Cover to utilize. I agree that later in the game they provide more value if they're getting shot at, but they're mainly there to blunt first turn shooting so they only really need to be hidden during deployment. From my experience, the -1 bubble only really becomes irrelevant when against full hit rerolls, which currently would only be one unit designated by a Chapter Master in most cases in the Marine meta. I'm sure some Mathhammer may refute that but in practice I have greatly benefited from having marines shooting me on 4+ instead of 3+. The Malanthrope sadly does seem to be a total trap though outside of the situation you described. From memory, only Obscurred does not work for models with 18W or more. Dense works just fine IIRC - Dense also works on all models, whereas cover saves from terrain only works on Infantry/Beast/Swarm. Reading the BRB and my GT book right now, both Obscuring and Dense cover do not apply to 18+W models, so I would still hold my position that the Venoms get their value in giving the Dimas a significantly better chance of staying alive. Honestly it makes sense, since the models themselves are much larger than most Dense and Obscuring terrain, and it's not a Flyrant's wings kind of size either. For the 99 points that a minimum Venom squad costs, I'd probably just be taking more gaunts which while never a bad thing would do nothing to make my heavy hitters harder to kill. In the context of Marines, if the Dimas can survive to do their jobs, they provide enough board control/threat that holding objectives should not be that hard. Even min squads of Gaunts will out-obsec most Marine troops. If we're talking facing a horde, then the gaunts may be more useful but they also wouldn't really be helping clear the hordes either and Venoms would probably be even more likely to prevent damage against lower quality shooting. I do think you are right in saying that Venoms get most of their value when they are getting shot instead of their bubble buddies, but I think that their value before that is enough to warrant inclusion for the big boys. Completely agreed that play/positioning are ultimately far more important, my position are largely in regards to the monsters that literally can't hide outside of uncommonly large and windowless terrain. I also agree that they work best as a stacking element with other defensive bubbles, but Venoms are also the least resource intensive/intrusive out of these defensive buffs in list design IMO. The Maleceptor is the only contender I see, and at nearly double the points is much harder to budget points for while also requiring 2CP to do its defensive job (still awesome depending on matchup), it feels worse from my experience (and I really want to use my big brain bug) than just having the -1 hit bubble without any other requirements. Incidental things like Venoms being Infantry and having Fly also give them slightly more things to do for the overall gameplan compare to the Maleceptor giving up more Abhor/Bring it Down points for almost nothing else have put me firmly in the Venom camp now that I'm all aboard the FW Nidzilla hype train. |
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Post by kazetanade on Dec 7, 2020 9:41:30 GMT
I still maintain the other points on why not bring venomthropes, but granted on the Dense and Obscuring, my bad.
I think it's *alright* if you want to use them. They're not so bad that they are a horrible choice.
99 points is hard to create more points and rule of 3 is maxed out, so those are valid points in favour. I just rather have 2 Rippers and a lictor for the same cost since I get Line breaker or EOAF off of them, I get nothing from venomthropes (scrambler in own deployment zone is easy to handle) and they don't mitigate 99pts worth of damage from the Dimachareon.
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Post by zedan on Dec 7, 2020 13:13:16 GMT
Solid advice. As for the venomthropes discussion - I tried them a few times and they don't do their job past turn 1, only work best in a monofleet list and frankly don't blow me away on what they do for that turn that they got the cut after a few games.
As for your suggested list I had just got done reorganizing the list into a 6man zoey squad with a single exocrine and debating its merits. Before the FW update I was running 3x5 zoeys. They do absolutely solid damage in the meta but one bad turn of casting which happened at the GT I was at cost me the game, so I am trying to rely less on them. I think there is definitely play in tyranids psychic phase so I will keep trying it, but even 3 neuros+swarmy can cast 5 smites pretty reliably with res barb and psy scream.
Exocrine vs barbed. Same shooting(basically). For 100pts you gain better defense and better melee. And lose out on some scoring options for more troops. I think it'll take some test games with both ways to see what plays better for me. I have an rtt on Saturday so I will see how it goes
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Post by TheDeepestShadow on Dec 8, 2020 1:12:07 GMT
Hmmm you folks are swaying me to reconsider how useful the Venoms are. I guess one thing I was not considering was that I could totally just not try to hide my Zoeys during deployment and make target priority more difficult for the opponent if I don't get first turn, instead of only having the FW bugs visible to get shot inside the -1 bubble. Regarding your current setup zedan, I think the squads of 5 Zoeys are actually better than 6 because they are not hindered by the coherency rules, meaning you can spread them out quite liberally. Like you said, relying on them for damage isn't... reliable, so treating them instead as incredibly durable screens works better with 5-man squads. The damage output is also not affected that much overall. For the Exocrine vs BarbeDule debate, I personally don't treat them as competing elements but rather a pretty good backfield duo. The BarbeDule has Hive Guard-esque shooting that is about as durable as Nids get, and with its huge base is able to protect its smaller Exocrine buddy from/in melee so that it can keep Symbiostorm shooting. Less utility shooting than Hive Guard due to needing LoS, but doesn't become useless once engaged. I haven't had enough games to tell if the tradeoff in utility is worth it but it at least seems like there's a case to be made for both. |
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Post by zedan on Dec 8, 2020 13:21:06 GMT
Hmmm you folks are swaying me to reconsider how useful the Venoms are. I guess one thing I was not considering was that I could totally just not try to hide my Zoeys during deployment and make target priority more difficult for the opponent if I don't get first turn, instead of only having the FW bugs visible to get shot inside the -1 bubble. Regarding your current setup zedan, I think the squads of 5 Zoeys are actually better than 6 because they are not hindered by the coherency rules, meaning you can spread them out quite liberally. Like you said, relying on them for damage isn't... reliable, so treating them instead as incredibly durable screens works better with 5-man squads. The damage output is also not affected that much overall. For the Exocrine vs BarbeDule debate, I personally don't treat them as competing elements but rather a pretty good backfield duo. The BarbeDule has Hive Guard-esque shooting that is about as durable as Nids get, and with its huge base is able to protect its smaller Exocrine buddy from/in melee so that it can keep Symbiostorm shooting. Less utility shooting than Hive Guard due to needing LoS, but doesn't become useless once engaged. I haven't had enough games to tell if the tradeoff in utility is worth it but it at least seems like there's a case to be made for both. Trying to fit that all in a list with swarmlord and 3 dimacheron is quite the challenge lol. Making the trade off for solid shooting or durable psykers is what it comes down to. Slotting a single exocrine/troops is decent enough but to make him kronos is actually more pts than taking a Barbed dule as kraken. And you're right the barbed syncs more closely with hiveguard. Str 8 and only -2. And taking 2 exocrine feels like they competing for more attention both wanting adaptive Physiologys move and shoot strat and symbiostorm. Feels good having more options for nids but can't get a good feel on whats best to complement it at the moment. Just have to go test it a few times. Finally finished all 3 dimacheron painted and based last night for this weekends RTT! |
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Post by hiveoverall on Dec 9, 2020 10:06:45 GMT
Hmmm you folks are swaying me to reconsider how useful the Venoms are. I guess one thing I was not considering was that I could totally just not try to hide my Zoeys during deployment and make target priority more difficult for the opponent if I don't get first turn, instead of only having the FW bugs visible to get shot inside the -1 bubble. Regarding your current setup zedan , I think the squads of 5 Zoeys are actually better than 6 because they are not hindered by the coherency rules, meaning you can spread them out quite liberally. Like you said, relying on them for damage isn't... reliable, so treating them instead as incredibly durable screens works better with 5-man squads. The damage output is also not affected that much overall. For the Exocrine vs BarbeDule debate, I personally don't treat them as competing elements but rather a pretty good backfield duo. The BarbeDule has Hive Guard-esque shooting that is about as durable as Nids get, and with its huge base is able to protect its smaller Exocrine buddy from/in melee so that it can keep Symbiostorm shooting. Less utility shooting than Hive Guard due to needing LoS, but doesn't become useless once engaged. I haven't had enough games to tell if the tradeoff in utility is worth it but it at least seems like there's a case to be made for both. Trying to fit that all in a list with swarmlord and 3 dimacheron is quite the challenge lol. Making the trade off for solid shooting or durable psykers is what it comes down to. Slotting a single exocrine/troops is decent enough but to make him kronos is actually more pts than taking a Barbed dule as kraken. And you're right the barbed syncs more closely with hiveguard. Str 8 and only -2. And taking 2 exocrine feels like they competing for more attention both wanting adaptive Physiologys move and shoot strat and symbiostorm. Feels good having more options for nids but can't get a good feel on whats best to complement it at the moment. Just have to go test it a few times. Finally finished all 3 dimacheron painted and based last night for this weekends RTT! I am also finishing 2 dimas (i have one done already) for this weekend, I tried one dima last saturday against ad mech (along with two scythed dules) and it did ok, but you really need to bring more for a nidzilla list to work. My scythed dules got move blocked by the ad mech horsemen dudes, what a waste !
1) I think for safe play three dimas (at least for kraken dimas), you spread them on the table (one left, one ceter, the other to the right) as far as possible from enemy guns.
1st turn you swamlord one (no advance) and you opportunistic advance another (advance + onslaught) to hit midfield stuff. 2) for risky play, and if you have good backline targets you can get to, you deploy them more agressively and hope to get first turn. If you don't get it, that where you would need thropes/maleceptor. But then you can't spread them, potentially hindering your access to juicy targets
I think in the end the best is to spread the 3 dimas and not dedicate points to bubble protection, instead use these points to take a either a barbed hierodule with the 5++ or other stuff to defend our bord edge. I think a list which manages to fit in 3 dimas, a barbed, and an exocrine could be gold in terms of impact.
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