So I tried out Alex Macdougal list.

[niiai]

I finaly got in contact with Alex. While he did not confirm the original starter list, he did gime me the current iterration of the list, as well as his thoughts on it. Email went as follows:

"So the changes to the list are mostly to have a bit more on the table to start since I found I was a little naked turn one and 2 if I went second. And also to include the new hand flamers at 12" range.

Currently it is.
2x alphus jackals
1 patriarch, familiar
1 magus, familiar crouchling
1 acolyte iconbearer, S+1 banner

2x kellemorph cowboys

5x 10 Neophyte 2 mining lasers
1x 20 Neophytes shotgun
2x 5 acolytes
1x 20 hand flamer acolytes

8 total runners with mining lasers. 3, 3, 2

The list has 19 drops total so 10 needs to start on the board. Obviously to start we have 3 runner groups and one of the alpha. Then i would go with the 2 bare bone acolyte units. Small stuff to run to objectives or perform actions like scramblers in your own zone. The last one that will remain on the board is the magus since it usually needs to cast from a distance. The next 3 that start on the board aren't too big a deal since we will be using the "They came from below" strat to put them back into deepstrike.
when everything comes in it should essentially all come in at once. If you run out of room you can just keep a single mining laser unit back or the 20 shotgun neos. Basically all of the support characters go into the middle. So you have fearless, 6+++, s4, +1 WS, +1 BS and I also recommend using broodcoven to get 3 warlord traits and make one, probably on the primus, the ability to heroically intervene with anything. The 20 squad of neophytes or hand flamers, whichever you decide to bring in should get undying vigour spell. the kellers, unless they get a really great opening, actually join in with the big blob because if they get a kill you get reroll ones to shoot with stuff nearby. So your ball of fire will typically be hitting on 3 rerolling ones with reroll ones to wound from the primus. Also since you are Pure Bladed cog you can also grab reroll all wounds against a specific target from the bladed cog warlord trait. Its a lot of pretty weak firepower that can actually be very efficient. "

I have my own thoughts on this.

1. I am not sure if the loss of CP is worth the second alphus and kellermorph, and instead try for a full batalion.

2. The 2 naked 5 man acolyte squads, if they are only starting in homebase should perhaps be 10 brood brothers. 10 points more, lose 6++, lose melee attacks but get 5 more wounds.

3. When it comes to flamers in general I would really like to see some mathhammer on:

5 man acolyte handflamers
10 brood brothers with 2 flamers
10 shotgun neophytes with 2 flamers with lying in wait

5 man acolytes with handflamers are 50 points. 10 brood brothrs with flamers are 60. 10 neophytes with flamers are 70. I think broodbrothers might come out very good.

4. He has completly forlorn the acolyte melee unit. I wonder why? To exspensive in points? To little CP for a perfect ambush? Do they just die after charging? It could be that the 3 cp for a perfect ambush is better to shoot twice with the 20 hand flamers?

[gorsameth]

Getting with the combat Acolytes saves 3 CP indeed and they will indeed simply die after charging, no opponent is going to leave that alive for it to delete another unit. But what I wonder is how this list takes objectives?
Without the acolytes to charge in and take over an objective you can remove your opponent from objectives but you can't take them for yourself. If you shoot them off an objective in turn 2, you can move onto it turn 3 (assume they don't screen you out again, and then your first opportunity is score is turn 4.

Obviously Alex is a much better player then me so apparently it works but I'm not seeing it.

ps.
He talks about Primus, but has no Primus in the list you mention, and fitting it in extra would require 2 Battalions? Oo

[niiai]

I can not speak for him.

However, lying in wait works fine for grabbing objectives.

Also, the 20 acolyte flamer group does stil have 40 rending attacks, and 20 knife attacks so it can fight in melee to a degree.

[gorsameth]

Oct 11, 2020 11:52:00 GMT niiai said:

I can not speak for him.

However, lying in wait works fine for grabbing objectives.

Also, the 20 acolyte flamer group does stil have 40 rending attacks, and 20 knife attacks so it can fight in melee to a degree.

The flamer squad can indeed, that is a good point. But Lying in wait is not that hard to zone out. Simply put someone on the objective and you can't deploy within 3".

[niiai]

I think I will atempt take this list into brigade teritory. Mortars would supplement this list quite well. More drops early. Have hide out of line of sight. Can shoot at small units that are grabbing objectives. That leaves up that the deepstriking units can focus on the more dangerush units.

[hivefleetkerrigan]

I think the second alphus would be worth the CP. Gunline cult isn't as CP heavy as melee cult. The point of the second alphus is to allow you to buff ridge runners and the death ball that drops in T2.

As for the acolytes, 20 acolytes can kill objective campers in melee.

[kazetanade]

Oct 11, 2020 11:36:00 GMT gorsameth said:

Getting with the combat Acolytes saves 3 CP indeed and they will indeed simply die after charging, no opponent is going to leave that alive for it to delete another unit. But what I wonder is how this list takes objectives?
Without the acolytes to charge in and take over an objective you can remove your opponent from objectives but you can't take them for yourself. If you shoot them off an objective in turn 2, you can move onto it turn 3 (assume they don't screen you out again, and then your first opportunity is score is turn 4.

Obviously Alex is a much better player then me so apparently it works but I'm not seeing it.

ps.
He talks about Primus, but has no Primus in the list you mention, and fitting it in extra would require 2 Battalions? Oo

Alex does mention that his Acolytes help him to take back objectives from stickier enemies. Lying in Wait is also used to steal objectives from unwary opponents or in the occasion that people's movement is just not enough to cover the objective. 

I can vouch for LIW working with the condition that there are no pre-nerf Aggressors around. With the current SM codex coming out, the LIW steal is stronger than ever and extremely viable, and even if they have Auspex Scan, you're not afraid of dropping in because there are no units in their line up that will outright delete that unit (most will dent it at best, which lets it do its job of stealing objectives just fine). 

Acolytes coming out of DS with PA is always a super sore point for me. Even back in the 7" rr days, I often have game-losing failed charges, often more than one unit at a time. It actually feels extremely bad when you spend 3cp for PA, roll a 1, reroll it (now illegal but I forgot) into another 1, then roll charge, and reroll it again to still fail. But on average, PA will usually give you a 5 or 6 inch charge, which is in the "extremely reliable" and nearly impossible to fail with rr charge territory. This 15 man 6 saw unit with MfB on is indeed strong enough to wipe almost anything off an objective, even Knights and I think even through its invul. With BC's Overthrow The Oppressors, anything Imperium short of max Kastellan robots (which is also questionable because it just became a 4+ to explode) will just get mushed, even without the Primus' +1 to hit and rr1 to wound buffs. This is just off memory of course but I do remember doing the maths for Abberrants and Acolytes back in 8th and basically this kill unit is so powerful I was considering running it even without buffs to kill most things without an invul. 

One thing that wasnt mentioned but is actually really strong, is a spare Kellermorph getting work done by himself. Primarily people think of using him to execute weaker characters (or with Oppressor's bane, can execute even SM characters?) while Alex uses him to buff his ball, I generally use a spare Kellermorph to snipe 4W models like Nurglings (and soon to come Scarabs) and 2W units like Primaris. The Primaris is really touch and go though but he's great and wounding or finishing them. 6 shots 10-12 hits, assuming 6W, 3 dead in the squad. Less effective in Pure GSC armies since there's very little follow up damage, but extremely good as a Tyranid Batman Utility Belt  detachment (which IIRC is the Sanctus, Kellermorph, Magus/Patriarch, Locus combination), assuming you're okay with giving away Assassinate for Free (since that belt is 12pts already). This might change depending on how much Heavy Intercessors feature honestly, but that's a unit I dont mind touching 20 Neophytes into. 

After mulling my last few losses, something I feel I could draw a conclusion easily to is that GSC gives up Primary too easily going 2nd, and has a tough time maintaining it going first. We have no real board presence other than our 6 RRs or other tanks, unless you're willing to use relatively big units of Bikes (which are basically worse Primaris for all accounts and purposes). My experiment with the 20 man thick 5+ 6++ 5+++ also showed that... we can barely stand on objectives. So it's basically important to have a LOS blocker in the middle that allows you to reach the objectives outside your zone safely without being shot, and you need something that can be used to contest the middle if really required (so that people dont dare to just stand on it for free), or can be prepped as a form of counter-charge that people will genuinely fear and is not trivial to remove. In my mind, this can only be an Abberrant squad, buffed by either a Primus or at least an Abominant ( which needs to come down in price, get +1A, and lose its -1 to hit because just why is it so heavily nerfed??) Alternatively, 10 Acolytes with 4 Saws hiding out in a Truck can be used too, but after trying these Trucks and Contents multiple times, I just cant like them, since they get blown off the table while trying to make it up to objectives in the first place, and the contents are just too easy to remove, especially since everyone can expect DSing Inceptors, Eradicators from the side, random Meltas, and who knows what other assortment of random anti-tank damage that will blow anything up that isnt hiding in your deployment zone's sole line of sight blocker. But yes assuming you can get an LOS blocker that's big enough to get to outside deployment zone objectives safely, then these Acolytes have a fair chance with 3" + 6" +D6" + 2D6" rr, to reach an enemy trying to hold or own the middle objective. I'm just not sold on 10 + 4 saws without appropriate buffs, as this unit only barely kills a Knight with ALL previous buffs used on it (and I use Knights as the standard damage output measure for whether they will kill most other things or not, since it's just a measure of raw output). 

The Bike list that took storm is really interesting. A short written interview found at goonhammer for everyone else: www.goonhammer.com/competing-with-genestealer-cults-in-9th-an-interview-with-bilbo-goransson/
But personally I DO NOT want to spend the money to buy 15 bikes. I have 6, and that's more than I'm using in any list right now. 

I'm taking a bit of a break from Nids and GSC to ride the Necron train, but I do think Necrons are going to be basically Tyranids with less psychic. Nids actually have more shenanigans in the deck, assuming you wanted to explore everything in our arsenal, whereas Necrons have  limited (but fairly effective) tricks and is a pretty straightforward army. I do not think Necrons is going to be top tier like many were expecting, other than the fact that they deny secondaries and can potentially deny objectives pretty well, but this alone may make them more viable than Nids considering they have an insane EVERYTHING IS OBSEC and GET FREE MOVEMENT BEFORE THE GAME. In the games where control of the mid board has been critical, I think they will shine, but I really dont know how they will fare against open season shooting armies. The list I'm building is supposed* to take advantage of that 6" movement to really put on the threat and push T1 objectives out of the enemy's reach regardless of going first or second, but its assuming I can actually withstand the barrage and I dont actually know if I can. The fact that almsot all the buffs in a Necron army only happen in the Command phase means going 2nd nothing gets applied. 

[niiai]

It certanly is a good time for necrons.

Back on GSC I will atemt a singel detachments in a brigade. Get less characters. But more troops. We just need bodies at damage. And as much of it as we can find.

Running a lot of fancy characters did not perform for me.

[kazetanade]

I find the issue is delivering the troops. Like, there's no poont having 3x Acolytes or 2x Acolytes if you cant make them connect with what they need to.

[winterman]

For what its worth Alex has moved on to a Forces of the hive mind build, using similar elements but reinforcing with Kronos shooting and 5 zoes for board presence and mortaks. He just won a GT with it:
www.goonhammer.com/competitive-innovations-in-9th-gt-triple-threat/

His list and goon's analysis is down toward the bottom.

He is a hell of a player, had the pleasure of playing him once and hosting him at our events many times.

[niiai]

Yeah thanks. I reached him on email and he told me he had gone back to mixed forces.

Does not really help my pure GSC list though.

[kazetanade]

After watching a few more AoW recorded games on YouTube (of different factions), I feel like I can surmize as follows:

- 6x RRs still core. This staple is not going anywhere.
- mass vehicles doesn't play well unless Cawl bubble, so no play on Trucks + Content (unless you have abundance of LOS blocking to use).
- 3 x FAE Acolytes with 2-3 Saws each can still do work, and trades reasonably into non Bladeguard. (however, the Bladeguard centre seems rather hard to deal with and to charge). This is probably more ideal on a more empty table.
- T1 charges are still possible with some armies, and need to be handled delicately in most cases.
- having 1 to 2 units of bikes that can exert pressure will be helpful, even if they only get there on T3. Demo charges are still big.
- GSC has to play an eat the edges away playstyles, and not crash the center like we used to. Alex Mcdougalls ball playstyles only works when the enemy plays, cagey, in that they cannot respond to RRs easily and have to overrespect them.
- TH is the next big staple, with advance + charge giving huge threat range and higher S meaning more consistent damage. Abberants in TH are also still in a class of their own, getting 2+ to wound from mutagenic (TH Acolytes getting this from Saws + Might).

So I would make a next gen list focused around either a TH/FAE core, then a mixed with RRs and RC DemooBikes. Couple of Neophytes with Seismic or Flamers. Make everything work without having to pour immense buffs into them.

[ulfast]

kazetanade, I really like your tactical advice. I think you are right and that was I´m leaning to use in the future.

[Hive Bahamut]

He placed first in that GT!

My initial guess about GSC was confirmed. Nothing in that codex holds points. If you get behind in Primaries you won't catch up with GSC. Too soft.

[ferryman]

Played my first game of 9th with cult after reading pretty much every post here. I'm a casual player and a father of four children. Maybe a game in a month is my usual pace so I hardly bother trying to win. I had:

Alphus, iconward
10xacos 2 saws
30 neophytes, 2 ml + 2gl, 2 ml, 2 seismic + 2 webbers
10 bb
11 shotgun neophytes
Ridgerunner
Russ, bc + bolters

Hive tyrant,venom cannon
Prime
4 Warriors, deathspitters + venomcannon
Carnifex, venomcannon+talons

Opponent was admech. Vehicle heavy. And I went second. And close to nothing on the table that blocked LOS.

I ended up being close to tabled, behind on primes all the time and bleeding secondaries. Pretty much everything I threw in the objectives disappeared before scoring. After the game I couldn't think of anything that could have changed the outcome. Quite a few mistakes on deployment etc but nothing that decided the game. I guess I just paint my other fex and hive guard for the next game and maybe try the jackal demo squad. And I might try bigger units of bb's or neophytes since min squads can't handle even a gust of wind. Here's my thoughts so far.