So I tried out Alex Macdougal list.

[niiai]

It has been discussed here before.

While we have yet to get a confirmation from Alex if it really is that list that we have talked about on here, I did make some changes.

- I changed the ridgerunners into 3 groups of 2 instead of 2 groups of 3 to get some more deployments.
- Keeping things simple and not seeing how I am supposed to have the CP to spend on stratagems I did the whole army in bladed cog.
- Owning 2 primuses but only 1 alphus I changed one alphus out for 1 primus. I gave the primus the bladed cog warlord trait as we are already running broodcoven. It was very good. I think I benefitted the re-roll to wound more then the +1 to hit. I was shooting up a morkanaught, 8 laser mining shot, 3 went through the armour saves, I rolled 1 three times on damage. A million shotgun and autocannon shots re-rolling to wound to get a 6 on the other hand did 5 damage to it. Hurray! (The morkanaught is the ork equavilant of a knight, although they have a bigger one that is the equivilant of a titan.)

For referense here is a Morkanaught from Dakkadakka by Geifer in 2018. Morkanaughts are very dangerush because they can get BS4 and shoots very well.



- The sanctus was very bad. With the obscure terain rules it is very easy to hide from the sanctus. The sanctus himself has very big problems hiding and at the same time see a character to shoot at. In 8th where you could always count on seeing your opponent he was amazing, now not so much. Perhaps dagger version is better? Also hard to time because I use a perfect ambush stratagem on the rocksaw squad turn 2. Usualy the sniper use it turn 1. The dagger assassin would have to do so turn 3, witch seems late.
- I have no idea what is supposed to start on the table in Alex's list witch makes me suspect I have created it wrongly. What I ended up starting on the table was:

1 Alphus
1 10 Neophyte squad with 2 lasers
3 units of 2 ridgerunners
1 5 man squad of acolytes
1 Sanctus with sniper rifle

2 20 Neophyte squad with shotguns
1 15 Acoolyte squad with 6 melee weapons and banner

That is 50% of my drops and over 50% of my army. And then I use They Came from Below to pull the 2 20 man neophyte and the 15 acolyte into reserves. So far so good.

My opponent got first turn. The Sanctus hid. As did the Alphus. The Neophyte squad with lasers got shot dead, the 5 man acolute squad got shot dead. Two ridgerunners had 1 and 4 wounds left at the end of turn 1. The Acolyte Squad and Neophyte squad should really have been heavy weapon teams with mortarts or auto cannons if they are just trying to hide, survive and grab objectives on my side of the map. This part of the list is very weak.

- I deep striked down the Magus, 4 Neophyte Squads with lasers, Primus, Patriarch, Acolyte Iconward on one point. That worked OK. But the S+1 banner did not come up. And the feel no pain was not worth it. I highly doubt it is worth one of the deep strike slots. But it is early to say.
- The Shotgun squad of 20 was quite good. First was better then the second. I could not deny the one point I wanted to as the morkanaught was covering all of it with it's base. So even with the abilaty to contest objectives it does not help if your opponent is standing on it.
- I am really tierd of how the acolyte melee wepaon squad is a use once sort of things. Every time I use it my opponent always kill it after it attacks its intended target.
- My opponent had two dakkajets. They are very good at preasuring characters, as it is hard to screen vs them.

We payed Resupply (12 page 18.) Secondaries where Secure Landing Sites, Psychic Ritual, Deploy Scrablers. Alex had talkes posetive about Psychic Ritual bit it is not worth it for GSC! You either loose you Patriarch or the Magus for 3 turns, not worth it. To make thigs a lot worse Orks are really REALLY good at flooding all over the board with things that want to be in close combat with you. I do not recomend it! Deploy Scrablers did very bad as well. With no infantery squads starting on the table at the start of my turn 1 I can not do it then. (Remember Characters can not do it.) So I think maiby having some weapon teams could help here.

Also, in my turn 3 I had not yet acivated a singel scrablers. So only 3 turns left to do it. I was gonne activate Deploy Scrablers in his deployment zone. But the damn Morkanaught exploded when I shot it. It deals 1d6 mortal wounds to every unit 9" away, that was the nail in the coffin for my game. Here is a complete list of everything that was within it's range.

His:
- Ork warboss
- Squad of Boys
- Dakkajet

Mine:
- Patrirach
- Magus
- Primus
- Iconward
- 3 squads of mining lasers.
- 2 shotgun squads
- 1 Kellemorph

Unfortunatly that explotion wiped out the once who had started performing deploy scramblers (the 2 remaining models from the turn two 20 man shotguns.) Since the action is finished at the turn it was botched. Behind of points (remember I get nothing turn 2) and zero points deploy scramblers and psyhic ritial I conseed. My opponent plays very slow, and I wanted dinner. We had been playing for a long while by then. If the Morkanaught had not exploted like it did I do think I could have had a real chanche of winning the game even with two botched secondaries as I was good at denying points and taking controll of the map. Secure Landing Sites was good for this list.

That is enough of my ramblings. Here is what my opponent played roughly:


1 Morkanaught with some nobs in it (5?).
1 Truck with 10 flashgits and badrukk in it.
1 Bonebraka
2 Dakkajets
1 Warboss
30 boys
10 boys
1 Weardboy
10 grots

Weardboys had warphead. Bonebreakar has a better save. Truck had squig tiers. Morkanaught had sparkly bits. Boys had ardboys.

My list was as follows:

2 Detachments, Both Bladed Cog:

1 Atelan Alphus
1 Patriarch, Familiar (Mental Onslaught)
1 Magus, Familiar, Crouchling (Mass Hypnosis, Mental Onslaught, Undying Vigor.)
1 Primus
1 Acolyte Iconbearer, Banner of Cult Ascendant
1 Sacntus, Sniper Rifle
2 Kellermorph
3 10x Neophytes 2xMining Laser
2 10x Neophytes 2xMining Laser, 1xGreande Launcher
2 20x Neophytes Shotguns
1 5xAcolytes
1 15xAcolytes Banners, 5xSaws, 1xDrill
3 2x Ridgerunners, Flare Launcher

Spend CP on ekstra relic, Broodcover, Magus stratagem and loose 2 CP for two detcahments. Starting on 7 CP. 8 Cp are reserves for 1 perfect ambush, 2 lying in wait and 1 They Came from Below.

More details if interesting below.

++ Battalion Detachment -3CP (Tyranids - Genestealer Cults) [52 PL, 7CP, 985pts] ++

+ Configuration +

Battle Size [12CP]: 3. Strike Force (101-200 Total PL / 1001-2000 Points)

Cult Creed: The Bladed Cog

Detachment CP [-3CP]

+ Stratagems +

Grandsire's Gifts [-1CP]: 1 Extra Sacred Relic

+ HQ +

Acolyte Iconward [3 PL, 60pts]: Icon of the Cult Ascendant

Jackal Alphus [4 PL, 75pts]

Magus [6 PL, -1CP, 100pts]: Broodcoven Magus, Familiar, Power: Mass Hypnosis, Power: Mind Control, Power: Undying Vigour, Stratagem: The Cult's Psyche, The Crouchling, Warlord Trait: Focus of Adoration

+ Troops +

Neophyte Hybrids [4 PL, 80pts]
. 7x Neophyte Hybrid: 7x Autogun, 7x Autopistol, 7x Blasting Charges
. 2x Neophyte Hybrid (Mining): 2x Autopistol, 2x Blasting Charges, 2x Mining Laser
. Neophyte Leader: Autogun, Autopistol

Neophyte Hybrids [4 PL, 80pts]
. 7x Neophyte Hybrid: 7x Autogun, 7x Autopistol, 7x Blasting Charges
. 2x Neophyte Hybrid (Mining): 2x Autopistol, 2x Blasting Charges, 2x Mining Laser
. Neophyte Leader: Autogun, Autopistol

Neophyte Hybrids [4 PL, 80pts]
. 7x Neophyte Hybrid: 7x Autogun, 7x Autopistol, 7x Blasting Charges
. 2x Neophyte Hybrid (Mining): 2x Autopistol, 2x Blasting Charges, 2x Mining Laser
. Neophyte Leader: Autogun, Autopistol

Neophyte Hybrids [4 PL, 85pts]
. 6x Neophyte Hybrid: 6x Autogun, 6x Autopistol, 6x Blasting Charges
. Neophyte Hybrid (Grenade): Grenade Launcher
. 2x Neophyte Hybrid (Mining): 2x Autopistol, 2x Blasting Charges, 2x Mining Laser
. Neophyte Leader: Autogun, Autopistol

Neophyte Hybrids [7 PL, 120pts]
. 19x Neophyte Hybrid (Shotgun): 19x Autopistol, 19x Blasting Charges, 19x Shotgun
. Neophyte Leader: Autogun, Autopistol

Neophyte Hybrids [4 PL, 85pts]
. 6x Neophyte Hybrid: 6x Autogun, 6x Autopistol, 6x Blasting Charges
. Neophyte Hybrid (Grenade): Grenade Launcher
. 2x Neophyte Hybrid (Mining): 2x Autopistol, 2x Blasting Charges, 2x Mining Laser
. Neophyte Leader: Autogun, Autopistol

+ Elites +

Kelermorph [4 PL, 80pts]

+ Fast Attack +

Achilles Ridgerunners [8 PL, 140pts]
. Achilles Ridgerunner: Flare Launcher, Heavy Mining Laser, 2x Heavy Stubber
. Achilles Ridgerunner: Flare Launcher, Heavy Mining Laser, 2x Heavy Stubber

++ Patrol Detachment 0CP (Tyranids - Genestealer Cults) [54 PL, -1CP, 1,015pts] ++

+ Configuration +

Cult Creed: The Bladed Cog

Detachment CP

+ Stratagems +

Broodcoven [-1CP]

+ HQ +

Patriarch [8 PL, 150pts]: Familiar, Power: Mental Onslaught, Warlord, Warlord Trait: Alien Majesty

Primus [4 PL, 85pts]: Bonesword, Broodcoven Primus, Warlord Trait: Single-minded Obsession

+ Troops +

Acolyte Hybrids [3 PL, 40pts]
. 4x Acolyte Hybrid: 4x Autopistol, 4x Blasting Charges, 4x Cultist Knife, 4x Rending Claw
. Acolyte Leader: Autopistol, Cultist Knife

Acolyte Hybrids [9 PL, 195pts]: Cult Icon
. 8x Acolyte Hybrid: 8x Autopistol, 8x Blasting Charges, 8x Cultist Knife, 8x Rending Claw
. Acolyte Hybrid (Heavy Weapon): Autopistol, Heavy Rock Saw
. Acolyte Hybrid (Heavy Weapon): Autopistol, Heavy Rock Saw
. Acolyte Hybrid (Heavy Weapon): Autopistol, Heavy Rock Saw
. Acolyte Hybrid (Heavy Weapon): Autopistol, Heavy Rock Saw
. Acolyte Hybrid (Heavy Weapon): Autopistol, Heavy Rock Saw
. Acolyte Hybrid (Heavy Weapon): Autopistol, Heavy Rock Drill
. Acolyte Leader: Autopistol, Cultist Knife

Neophyte Hybrids [7 PL, 120pts]
. 19x Neophyte Hybrid (Shotgun): 19x Autopistol, 19x Blasting Charges, 19x Shotgun
. Neophyte Leader: Autogun, Autopistol

+ Elites +

Kelermorph [4 PL, 80pts]

Sanctus [3 PL, 65pts]: Silencer Sniper Rifle

+ Fast Attack +

Achilles Ridgerunners [8 PL, 140pts]
. Achilles Ridgerunner: Flare Launcher, Heavy Mining Laser, 2x Heavy Stubber
. Achilles Ridgerunner: Flare Launcher, Heavy Mining Laser, 2x Heavy Stubber

Achilles Ridgerunners [8 PL, 140pts]
. Achilles Ridgerunner: Flare Launcher, Heavy Mining Laser, 2x Heavy Stubber
. Achilles Ridgerunner: Flare Launcher, Heavy Mining Laser, 2x Heavy Stubber

++ Total: [106 PL, 6CP, 2,000pts] ++

Created with BattleScribe

[No One]

niiai said:

Also, in my turn 3 I had not yet acivated a singel scrablers. So only 3 turns left to do it. I was gonne activate Deploy Scrablers in his deployment zone. But the damn Morkanaught exploded when I shot it. It deals 1d6 mortal wounds to every unit 9" away, that was the nail in the coffin for my game. Here is a complete list of everything that was within it's range.

Assuming this was your T3 drop, you'd have been out of range (>9" vs within 9").

We payed Resupply (12 page 18.) Secondaries where Secure Landing Sites, Psychic Ritual, Deploy Scrablers. Alex had talkes posetive about Psychic Ritual bit it is not worth it for GSC! You either loose you Patriarch or the Magus for 3 turns, not worth it. To make thigs a lot worse Orks are really REALLY good at flooding all over the board with things that want to be in close combat with you. I do not recomend it! Deploy Scrablers did very bad as well. With no infantery squads starting on the table at the start of my turn 1 I can not do it then. (Remember Characters can not do it.) So I think maiby having some weapon teams could help here.

Also, in my turn 3 I had not yet acivated a singel scrablers. So only 3 turns left to do it. I was gonne activate Deploy Scrablers in his deployment zone. But the damn Morkanaught exploded when I shot it. It deals 1d6 mortal wounds to every unit 9" away, that was the nail in the coffin for my game. Here is a complete list of everything that was within it's range.

You need a plan for secondaries throughout the game, 100%. Yours, theirs, middle. I generally want to do T1/2/3, since that means there's nothing your opponent can do about it, and you don't have to worry about being out of range/having to RttS. Having something able to hide T1 to deploy is definitely something you want in a list, yeah: not sure why you want HWT over, say, BB though. Ritual...it's a very 'play to the mission' secondary. Unless your entire infantry force dies and you can't protect your chars, that's 15 VP. As long as you keep up on primary (by not dying horribly and denying a couple of theirs), and get your other secondaries, you win. If everything does die horribly, patty (or unbuffed magus) being out for a turn or 3 probably wouldn't be enough to swing that. You still get your main powers off. Now, against Orks, 100% agree, terrible secondary because they deny the centre way too easily, and then kill anything close even if you do beat them there. But if you can hold the centre against a different army, could be OK, depending on how risky it is (because 0/15 isn't good). Pierce the veil would be a different one to consider, but yeah, not having a 3rd kill secondary as an option is eh. If secure was good, engage (or linebreaker) would have been better.

[niiai]

It was not my turn 3 drop that died and could not cap a point. It was the remaining 2 shotguns from my turn 2 drop. Although it is worth noting that my turn 3 drop also was in range thanks to lying in wait stratagem.

I was planing og doing turn 1, 2 and 3 as you suggested. But the only things left standing standing start of my turn 1 was 6 ridgerunners, 1 Alphus and 1 Sanctus. None who can perform that action as you need an infantery non hero unit. It was no time to do it turn two. vs Orks you need to really kill as many of them as you can. It was more important to get him off objectives then deploy scramblers.

Of you are wondering what killed my infantery before my turn 1 it was 2 dakkajets og 30 boys from da jump.

Ideally there would have been a small 40 point squad dedicated to doing that. But the list alex described has not enough to start on the table to put the 40 man squad into reserves. The list have several flaws in it. I doubt I got the right one.

Alex had said that the psykick ritual was very good for the list, I got curius and tryed. I am not impressed. Loosing a patriarch or magus for 3 turns is not worth it, asuming you can even pull it of.

[kazetanade]

Every game I've played with this list, my biggest problem has been securing the middle. I have not managed to secure the middle once in 3 games because you don't have enough power to force things off the middle and keep it clean for T2, and had to start a 20 man on the board just to not lose primary completely (which I ended up losing because of anyway). That 20 man only 1 guy lived.

If I wanted to play 20 man blobs with big lascannons guns rn I'd play necron warriors with Doomstalkers. Feels way better.

Back to GSC, Kellermorph has become the "saviour" of my list and keeping me in the game. Won't be doing very well once people migrate to T5 W3 chassises Obsec.

WWSWF is a really good objective but on replay I found needing them to be on the board to support the 20 man who needs to grab objectives early. I really don't like having to do that and WWSWF makes those characters unable to contribute.

Lack of rerolls is showing is ugly head as a Patty rolls 6A gets 2H. That bloat drone had a real laugh surviving 2 rounds of combat with a Patty.

Spending 4cp for PA/rr charge on that 15 man 6 Saws unit and not making it feels bad.

Essentially I think with more aggressive players and not going first makes this list default play... Not playable and really risk fraught. I'm seriously hating it and am not enjoying this army at all right now.

[No One]

niiai said:

It was not my turn 3 drop that died and could not cap a point. It was the remaining 2 shotguns from my turn 2 drop. Although it is worth noting that my turn 3 drop also was in range thanks to lying in wait stratagem.

Referring to non lying in wait stuff:

Here is a complete list of everything that was within it's range.
...
- Patrirach
- Magus
- Primus
- Iconward
- 3 squads of mining lasers.

[niiai]

Well all of those came in turn 2 (along with first shotgun squad.)

Then his turn 3 the morknaught charges the shotgun daizy chain, but can not get to my character. His ork boys also charges my daizy chain. My turn 3, 2 shotguns stil alive in the daizychain. They walk and do deploy scramblers (or what ever itvos called.) My second squad lands near the ork boyz and morknaught. When the morkanaught finaly explodes in my psykisk phase the explotion blast was big enough to damage 5 neophyte squads, patriarch, magus, primus, iconward. One of the five neophyte squads was the remaining 2 shotgun dudes that came in turn 2. They both died. Since actions are not done until end of the turn that was that.

[niiai]

Oct 7, 2020 11:09:25 GMT kazetanade said:

Every game I've played with this list, my biggest problem has been securing the middle. I have not managed to secure the middle once in 3 games because you don't have enough power to force things off the middle and keep it clean for T2, and had to start a 20 man on the board just to not lose primary completely (which I ended up losing because of anyway). That 20 man only 1 guy lived.

If I wanted to play 20 man blobs with big lascannons guns rn I'd play necron warriors with Doomstalkers. Feels way better.

Back to GSC, Kellermorph has become the "saviour" of my list and keeping me in the game. Won't be doing very well once people migrate to T5 W3 chassises Obsec.

WWSWF is a really good objective but on replay I found needing them to be on the board to support the 20 man who needs to grab objectives early. I really don't like having to do that and WWSWF makes those characters unable to contribute.

Lack of rerolls is showing is ugly head as a Patty rolls 6A gets 2H. That bloat drone had a real laugh surviving 2 rounds of combat with a Patty.

Spending 4cp for PA/rr charge on that 15 man 6 Saws unit and not making it feels bad.

Essentially I think with more aggressive players and not going first makes this list default play... Not playable and really risk fraught. I'm seriously hating it and am not enjoying this army at all right now.

This army, do you mean the list spesifically or the army?

Persobally I want to change the list a bit so I can have a better plan for what starts on the table turn 1. Currently it does not feel good.

[kazetanade]

I meant this list which was the only list in this army I built and felt had a chance of doing something. The other variations I tried felt worse. The only thing I haven't tried is Abbys for board presence since people like to gunk up the damn middle.

As long as Aggressors are out, we can do Flamer drops with reroll aura, helps a lot IMO. Might have something there.

[niiai]

Flamers 12" with inherebt deepstrike is good. Handflamers mostly, but regular flamers might be worth it at 5 points (somebody else do the mathhammer on the shotgun squad. 6 points for BS4 2 S4 shots vs 11 points autohit 1d6 S4.)

What was the reroll aura you where thinking off?

[gorsameth]

I don't think GSC can play for securing the middle. Your to fragile to survive there and not big horde enough flood it in the way Orks can.
You have to pincer the sides and threaten outlying objectives with deepstrikes.

The problem is that the game has moved to holding an objective through your opponents turn and we are an army made up of t3 5+ models that doesn't have any tricks to stay alive.

The big blops of Neophytes with Mining Lasers are an investment of points and models that doesn't do enough to help you win the game. Your putting 30-50 models on the board that might take an objective away from your opponent but they are not taking it themselves.
And playing the deny primary, win secondary game isn't something GSC do easily because the lists tend to give up a lot of easy secondary points.

I've tried the Neophyte Mining laser blops but they never felt good to me (tho that might entirely be my fault). Atleast with lots of Acolytes your charging in to both remove your opponent and claim the objective yourself (tho surviving is, again, the problem).
Maybe Abbarrents are the answer to actually surviving your opponents turn but the game is so lethal that I would doubt it, and you would be running headfirst into an anti-marine meta.

I'd want 2/3 units of 20 BB's (or equiv) to hold your home objectives, do scramblers and if possible move up on a flank that your shooting cleared to get a side objective in the midfield, in addition to something like the big neophyte unit to hopefully steal an objective through lying in wait.

Oct 7, 2020 17:16:26 GMT niiai said:

Flamers 12" with inherebt deepstrike is good. Handflamers mostly, but regular flamers might be worth it at 5 points (somebody else do the mathhammer on the shotgun squad. 6 points for BS4 2 S4 shots vs 11 points autohit 1d6 S4.)



What was the reroll aura you where thinking off?

I assume the re-roll aura is the BC warlord trait.

[niiai]

While we moght be bad at holding points, lying in wait and a perfect ambush makes us very good at denying points. Aka, we might bleed, but so do they.

I am wondering what is our most resilient unit for the point cost though? I mean. Something has to start on the table. Presumably ridgerunners are in the list, not because they are durable, but we need the offensive power. What else starta on the table?

Are trucks or chimeraes good? Double heavy flamer chimera can be a threath. Even naked.

A truck with 10 sawacolytes in them have a very big threat range (deploy 3, move + advance 6 + 1d6, charge 2d6 = 9 + 3d3, and averadge of 19.)

I feel distraction carnifex rockgrinder or leman russ is to exspensive. (The heavy flamer and heavy bolter leman russ got better after the updates.)

Cheapest and most resilient threats might just be heavy weapon teams and or brood brother squads. (Heavy weapon teams are 45 points for 6 wounds. BB are 50 points for 10 wounds.)

[gorsameth]

Oct 8, 2020 11:49:52 GMT niiai said:

While we moght be bad at holding points, lying in wait and a perfect ambush makes us very good at denying points. Aka, we might bleed, but so do they.

I am wondering what is our most resilient unit for the point cost though? I mean. Something has to start on the table. Presumably ridgerunners are in the list, not because they are durable, but we need the offensive power. What else starta on the table?

Are trucks or chimeraes good? Double heavy flamer chimera can be a threath. Even naked.

A truck with 10 sawacolytes in them have a very big threat range (deploy 3, move + advance 6 + 1d6, charge 2d6 = 9 + 3d3, and averadge of 19.)

I feel distraction carnifex rockgrinder or leman russ is to exspensive. (The heavy flamer and heavy bolter leman russ got better after the updates.)

Cheapest and most resilient threats might just be heavy weapon teams and or brood brother squads. (Heavy weapon teams are 45 points for 6 wounds. BB are 50 points for 10 wounds.)

Yeah, no one gets primary and then we lose on secondaries because we give up so much so easily.

And from experience I can tell you that 10 BB's isn't enough to survive being looked at in a shooting phase. And HWT's are even worse and also extra susceptible to multi-wound weapons.

[niiai]

I have redently considering foraging into a batallion in order to have more CP.

And while one BB group is not enough, 3 for 150 is not so bad. (180 if I wanted mortars, heavy bolters or autocannons.)

How many do I need in order to survive until reinforcements arive?

[kazetanade]

I survived with 20 Neophytes + FNP spell + 6++, facing an entire DG army shooting. I might have survived vs IF too if my RRs were also being shot at.

So from the feel of it, minimum board presence is 6 RRs and 20-40 guys, with enough buffs to matter (alphus, maybe a Kellermorph, Fearless).

Alternatively, bikes, since 14" move and grenades makes people have headaches if they try to encroach near you. 5 bikes is also easier to hide than 3 RRs.

The main issue I have is not that I can't survive (although yes we don't survive that well piecemeal), but I can't claim the land I need. You need that centre or bunch of objectives, and going 2nd you tend to lose all your map control altogether because the enemy gets 2 turns of moving onto the map while you have nothing to answer it. If we can solve thsi issue, then the list archetype is playable. Honestly I think this might be where bikes become playable and can project this kind of threat together with RRs.

[niiai]

I have not played that many games of 9th. But I understand your point. Going second the enemy gets to much board position.

Your bike sugestion is good. Although I rather feel you pay a lot for very little.

This is also where a perfect ambush helps (trying to wipe a squad) also lying in wait with 20 shotguns lets you interupt and shoot of a squad.

Other 'counter offensive' units cam be 4 saw in a truck. That is 9 + 3d6 range if you use the stratagem for running and charging. (In another 4 armed emperor list those would have 11 + 3d6.)

Goliath rockgrinders can also be a distraction carnifex of sorts. It performs well enough in a counter charge.

It sounds like Alex Macdougals lost needs more to start on the table. I feel the deepstrike elements work, personally.