Whats is the “++” or “+++” on saves?

[hiveelysium]

I have seen people reference having a save but then they add extra +s... what is that?

I use battlescribe and currently my genestealers show with a 4+\5++ save...

[yoritomo]

The ++ is shorthand for an invulnerable save. The +++ is sometimes used to denoted a feel no pain save or other wound ignoring ability.

[zimko]

Yeah it's just shorthand.

4+ save is a normal armour save of 4+
4++ save is a 4+ invulnerable save
4+++ save is not really a save but an effect that allows you to ignore wounds on a 4+, often referred to as 'feel no pain' (which is what such an effect was called in previous editions)

[beetlejuice]

Note that you can only take an armor save OR an invulnerable save (choose the best depending on AP) but you can then take FNP/4+++ in addition if you have such a rule. For multi damage weapons you roll one save for every succesful wound roll but if the attack inflicts for example d3 damage, you then take the same d3 number of FNP rolls (one roll for every point of damage)

[hiveelysium]

awesome thanks guys, I played nids and dabbled in nurgle chaos marines in 5th so FNP brings back memories!

so if I'm reading this right my Hive Jormengander Genestealers with extended carapace, dynamic camo, and catalyst have a 2+/5++/5+++ against shooting, and a 4+/5++/5+++ against melee or if i charge.

[aekiel]

Taking extended carapace negates the 5++ save so you'd just have 2+/5+++ for those Genestealers.

[beetlejuice]

Sept 24, 2020 7:37:50 GMT aekiel said:

Taking extended carapace negates the 5++ save so you'd just have 2+/5+++ for those Genestealers.

no, it negates swift and deadly, not lightning reflexes so you lose advance and charge but not the iv save

[aekiel]

That's what I get for saying things when I don't double check first.

I'd still rate advance and charge as better than the higher save. Then again, more survivable Genestealers could be useful.

[purestrain]

Sept 24, 2020 0:41:58 GMT hiveelysium said:

awesome thanks guys, I played nids and dabbled in nurgle chaos marines in 5th so FNP brings back memories!

so if I'm reading this right my Hive Jormengander Genestealers with extended carapace, dynamic camo, and catalyst have a 2+/5++/5+++ against shooting, and a 4+/5++/5+++ against melee or if i charge.

Yes, remember that with extended carapace you lose swift and agile. (Advance and charge)

[hiveelysium]

Sept 24, 2020 11:26:52 GMT purestrain said:

Sept 24, 2020 0:41:58 GMT hiveelysium said:

awesome thanks guys, I played nids and dabbled in nurgle chaos marines in 5th so FNP brings back memories!

so if I'm reading this right my Hive Jormengander Genestealers with extended carapace, dynamic camo, and catalyst have a 2+/5++/5+++ against shooting, and a 4+/5++/5+++ against melee or if i charge.

Yes, remember that with extended carapace you lose swift and agile. (Advance and charge)

But with hive fleet Jorm and extensed carapace i Basically give up my charge and gain 2 on my save... expensive but interesting to try

[Bohxim]

Sept 24, 2020 22:43:24 GMT hiveelysium said:

Sept 24, 2020 11:26:52 GMT purestrain said:

Yes, remember that with extended carapace you lose swift and agile. (Advance and charge)

But with hive fleet Jorm and extensed carapace i Basically give up my charge and gain 2 on my save... expensive but interesting to try

But that 2+ save is moot against armies that ignore cover saves tho iirc

[angelwing]

Personally, I feel the extended carapace is a trap. In my opinion it makes the stealers worse. The advance and charge is really powerful. Save the points and buy more stealers with them.

[Hyrrokin]

Pretty sure the example was an example to understand the shorthand.
Not sure what merit there is to continue the thread but I guess go ahead. I'm Not stalking anymore here though.

[terminatoruk]

Even I've come around to not recommending extended carapace on genestealers in most cases.

Saying this - a few points if you did want to run them in a difficult-to-shift distraction role:

1) Unless you know you are up against a matchup of 0AP weapons, running Enchanced Resistance is preferable to Dynamic Camo is most cases. Yes it's a 3+ save with Jorm + Extended carapace but you are ignoring AP -1 and -2 meaning you'll get a more reliably be getting that 3+ save. In addition it also means you'll get your 4+ in close combat against -1 and -2 AP weapons too which dynamic Camo loses. Lastly you'll have a 4+ ignoring AP -1 and -2 save with Enchanced Resistance if you choose to advance and no benefit at all with dynamic camo (If you aren't in natural cover as you'll lose the Jorm cover benefit by advancing)

2) If you really, really wanted to invest, you could always cast onslaught on the genestealer blob so they can still advance and charge when you are ready to do so but as others have said, you do throw away that built-in advantage but it's an option if you are using them as difficult to shift fire bait

3) You could forsake relying on advancing altogether and use the blood of baal stratagems like 'Hunters Drive' or 'Hive Instinct' for a 3D6 (picking highest two) charge to make longer distance charges. Also running Jorm, use 'the enemy below' stratagem to shove a broodlord (and neurothrope if you are feeling spicy) in a Trygon Prime tunnel for psychic support and to help meet the criteria for Hunters Drive / Hive Instinct to trigger