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Post by muchonobueno on Sept 23, 2020 3:04:03 GMT
I'm new to the hobby and just purchased a half-painted flyrant with 2x twin-linked devourers (I heard those were good and it was cheap so I figured it was worth the effort to strip it) as well as 8 genestealers, 12 hormagaunts and a hive tyrant, all on the sprue. From what I can tell, mixing your grunt units isn't as good as specializing and having more of the same. If that's generally true, I'd much rather get a broodlord and specialize with the genestealers. I'm wondering if it's worth using the hive tyrant box to make a swarmlord for the genestealer slingshot technique or whether I should make another flyrant and have 2. I'd like to know what else I should be looking to add to my army as well as which upgrades I should use in order to have a decent 1000pt+ list. I'm currently thinking of having a large swarm of genestealers with a broodlord and a couple of carnifexes (I've always loved their almost spherical profile, like a huge mutant armadillo), the flyrant with the TL devourers (or two), as well as some tunneling bugs or maybe a GSC option for a fast attack. I've also heard the GSC mortar teams are good so I might want to include some of those. Also in the future I might want to add some GSC tanks in. Is there a limit to how many GSC units you can have in a nid list? Sorry if anything I said is ignorant, I'm essentially completely new to the gameplay aspect of 40k since I was intimidated by it all for the longest time. I've been thinking about starting to collect and play nids for years and I've always loved the aesthetic of vast swarms of writhing, sharp-clawed bugs rushing fearlessly forward to tear apart their enemies whilst being interspersed by hulking, chitin-encrusted monsters that blast their way through with huge bio weapons  |
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Post by Hive Bahamut on Sept 23, 2020 3:37:35 GMT
1: Welcome to the Hive. The saltiest place on the internet.
2: Generally Gaunts are better off naked with Fleshborers unless you have a game plan. Their use is undetermined in 9th still with Carpet being strong still though.
3: Melee is a tricky spot and the more advanced route. Shooting requires the brainpower to check range and read stats, while you need to master logistics in moving, coherency and charging even before you get to melee. Nevermind tri-pointing and advanced things like fighting twice just to tag something.
4: Nids are strong alone right now, and as a Main GSC player I can tell you right now they add nothing of note in 9th to Nids. Maybe some blip screening and Mining Lasers spam? Just use Exo's and Hive Guard.
I haven't used a Hive Tyrant for a long time. Their profile (model) is impossible to hide and basically maxes all secondaries for the opponent. 3 Flyrants is: 15 Abhor the Witch, 9 Assassinate and 12? For Bring it Down. I doubt you could find any models that give MORE points away. Just to be clear that is 36/45 points for killing 3 models.
Nids are a great looking army, but be prepared to remove them all almost every game. Few armies have as many casualties as part of the game plan.
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Post by muchonobueno on Sept 23, 2020 3:47:06 GMT
3 Flyrants is: 15 Abhor the Witch, 9 Assassinate and 12? For Bring it Down. Sorry, what do these numbers mean? |
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Post by killercroc on Sept 23, 2020 4:08:38 GMT
3 Flyrants is: 15 Abhor the Witch, 9 Assassinate and 12? For Bring it Down. Sorry, what do these numbers mean? Warhammer has changed how missions work from previous editions, there are main objectives and secondary objectives in which you gain points for completing. You can score a total of 100 points in a game. The numbers are how many points the Hive Tyrant gives up for secondary objectives. Specifically for killing Psykers, for killing Characters and for killing monstrous creatures. So while 3 Tyrants is strong, because Warhammer is won on points your opponent can score almost half of the points they need to win by taking them down. And while Tyrants might seem tough dedicated enough firepower can take them down and a 4++ invulnerable save will only protect them for so long. [EDIT] As for the main topic at hand: Most people will tell you it's best to just magnetize your models so you don't lock yourself out of taking any options, mostly because GW radically changes the effectiveness of wargear each edition so what works now might not work next year. So a few magnets and a little hobby time will save you heart ache later on. Personally I'd go with the second Flyrant because having a flexible Psychic/Shooting/Melee monster that can show up anywhere on the table allows for more strategic and dynamic game play than just figuratively shotgun Genestealers at your opponents face holes. I run a pretty Genestealer heavy army and I've never ran the Swarmlord and have never had trouble getting them into combat. But I play rather casually too so there is that. As for what to add to your army, as the game stands Swarms are kind of in a weird spot. They're not very strong however if you play carefully and get a good table set up with favorable terrain and objectives you can do well. Normally I suggest add what you think looks cool to your army, sure it might not be the most effective but that's kind of our army as a whole. I run lots of Genestealers, Carnifex and Warriors in my army and tend to play half of my army on offense and the other half on defense. Hit the opponent while still sitting on objectives and providing covering fire. If you wanna add Stealers to your list you should go for broke. Look towards getting two maxed out squads in your army. They're expensive but can hit like a truck covered in razor blades and the models look amazing too. Each of our swarmy bug serves a different purpose but overly it's to die before doing anything useful other than dying. Termagants are good for filling up the board, holding objectives and in general just being a pain to everyone playing. Hormagaunts mostly tie up units in combat and lock them down, with their ability to consolidate faster they can wrap around units to hold them in place or reach out and engage multiple units at once, downside is most things will be better than them in combat so really they're just there to give your opponent something to punch in the face and hopefully forget to move an important unit onto an objective. Gargoyles are like Termagants but they all had some Red Bull before the fight. They take up more room on the board but don't secure objectives as well and cost more points to effectively do the same thing but an inch off the table. Genestealers are basically a "Throw this at a target to kill it" unit, there are some tricks you can pull with them but honestly 99/100 times they're just gonna charge the unit in front of them and delete it. Rippers are kinda just there because GW made the model and doesn't know what to actually do with them. These little buggers can pop up anywhere on the table which makes them good outflankers and objective holders, but by having some of the worst stats in the game with horrible wargear they're best to take in small squads and drop them all over the table turn 3 to annoy your opponent. Or you could do what I do and field them as a tidal wave and just run them across the board to die horribly because you wanna have fun in the oh-too-serious wargame with plastic toy soldiers. If you like swarms you came to the right place, if you like having a consistent chance to win and having balanced games... ehh well at least our models look amazing. 1: Welcome to the Hive. The saltiest place on the internet. So much salt you could pay a Roman legionary army for a year |
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Post by kazetanade on Sept 23, 2020 9:15:55 GMT
Some salt is not the same as others...
Objectives under the same segment can't be double and triple picked so you'll only give one of those options (15/9/9, not 15+9+9). So don't feel too pressured against taking triple Flyrant - scoring isn't the reason they aren't played much right now.
Genestealers have been good since start of 8th. Their main problem right now is that they're just too expensive for what you get from them (combining their output + their staying power vs pts cost) . They're really good with SL but with smaller map sizes and Kraken, you don't need SL to make them work anymore. I wouldn't all in on them personally, but 2 full units can give you a lot of threat to armies that don't breach T4, and passable threat to T5-T7. Behemoth +1 to wound spell extends your threat in a similar manner.
You should magnetize or pin or bluetack your models, really highly recommended. As long as you are keen or can stomach it.
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Post by niiai on Sept 23, 2020 9:25:37 GMT
Hi. Welcone to tyranids, it is a fun arny to play. The models you have so far is a good start.
Nids are in an odd place right now. Not very competetive but not bad either. This means there is no real right or wrong for the moment, so you can do what you want.
The swarmlord sling you dedcribed was very good in 8th edition. But all the genestealers are real glass cannons, and they went in in price. The 9th edition consensus is splitt. Some do like it, some do not.
The only build that has had one tournament result so far was a million gaunts that the opponent could not kill and outscoring the opponent. This is very boring to collect and play. I would not recomend it.
Here are two pieces of advice: Nids have a really hard time vs T8 3+ models. Make sure you have some way to deal with this in your list. Preferably more then one unit as that unit will do a lot of heavy lifting and be killed fast. (Usual suspects are: Hive guards of both versions, rupture or acid spray tyranofex, exoshrine. Biocannons come on platforms that are more dual purpose and not dedicated enough.)
Second advice is that a maxed group of warriors are good with the ignore ap1 and ap2 as well as reduce damage by 1 stratagem found in blood of baal.
Good luck.
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Post by No One on Sept 23, 2020 12:19:25 GMT
I've also heard the GSC mortar teams are good so I might want to include some of those. Also in the future I might want to add some GSC tanks in. Is there a limit to how many GSC units you can have in a nid list? Not sure where you heard GSC mortars are good from: they're not. As to how much you can include: technically as much as you like, in practice allying lots is CP intensive, so you'll probably only want whatever you can fit in a single detachment. Objectives under the same segment can't be double and triple picked so you'll only give one of those options (15/9/9, not 15+9+9). So don't feel too pressured against taking triple Flyrant - scoring isn't the reason they aren't played much right now. Abhor is warpcraft, assassinate/bring it down is whatever the kill section is. So you can totally do abhor+assassinate (and even thin their ranks as well). |
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Post by kazetanade on Sept 23, 2020 12:51:31 GMT
I stand corrected then.
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Post by infornography on Sept 23, 2020 12:59:04 GMT
Mortars were decent when we had battlefields full of cheap infantry and a few high value models which was common in 8th edition. What made them popular was that they were cheap and filled a slot we didn't have much good in so we could try for a brigade while not being a waste of points. Plop them on an objective behind a wall and lob explosive annoyance at your opponent ;-). 9th has seen that tactic become less popular.
In 9th edition it seems that heavy/elite infantry and speed are what win games. You have to try to take and hold as many objectives as possible while scoring as many missions as you can.
As previously stated, one way to do that is just taking loads of cheap bodies since most enemies cannot kill enough of them due to being tuned to handle more heavy and elite infantry rather than massed bodies. They also don't give up as many victory points as a lot of other things. If that tactic continues to see success I would not be surprised to see the meta shift again and result in lots of mass body clearing capabilities.
As stated previously though, massed bodies is incredibly tedious. Both to assemble/paint and to play. It isn't fun and if you aren't having fun then why are you even playing right?
We don't have any slam dunk strategies right now. It is strongly recommended that you take at least two Exocrines and probably some hive guard. Rippers are good at popping up on objectives and sometimes being short enough to not be targetable but they can't kill anything tougher than grots and they are slow so their utility beyond opportunistically grabbing objectives is limited. Some people like warriors but they don't have the durability of most elite/heavy infantry and are too expensive to be treated as much of anything else. Gargoyles are pretty good due to their speed, but they are all but impossible to hide and die easily.
All in all, until they re-balance our points or give us a new codex we are kind of in limbo. The points changes for 9th hit us harder than most and that left things a bit awkward, but as stated, we are not a bottom tier codex and can win games, we are just currently at a disadvantage.
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Post by afewveiws on Sept 23, 2020 15:59:53 GMT
If you are drawn to the nids for thier close combat blender appearance and you like the idea of genestealer sling then i urg you to look at the hormagaunt. They wont kill a whole lot and they die in mass just like the rest of our gribblies but they can occupy the enemy for some time if you can get them buried into the enemy front line early. Swarmlord gets 2 powers and his ability to launch things means the best powers for his kit is catlyst and onslaught.
I think there is alot of play in denying your opponent the chance to leave thier deployment zone but my test games are still limited in quantity and quality so oppinion is still pending.
OOE is a geat smasher of annoying giants, but he is prone to getting annialated immediately after doing so. Also pars well with swarmlord.
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Post by niiai on Sept 23, 2020 16:00:04 GMT
Mortars wherw widly played in varius stages in 8th edition. One list even ran 9 teams of 3 mortars each until the Rule of Three came, and also corected that you could not bring the same unit from different codexes. (I think it was IG and 2 Forgeworld IG or possible IG, GSC and one FW.)
I still think general trends in 9th edition is hard to predict. But cheap objective grabbing troops do turn up from time to time. Mortar treams are OK vs those. Mortar teams are cheap and can grab backline objrctives. They are not the reason you branch into GSC. You branch into GSC for laser spam, or mining weapon (Sx2) ambushesh. GSC is a very small codex who where designed with first turn deepstrike in mind. A rule that was changed 1 month after release. And they are very hampered by random unit cost changes through all of 8th edition. (Remember when ridgerunners where exspensive and abberants cheap, and vice verso.)
Most importantly there is very little need to include GSC brecause most of it can be handeled by your own codex. GSC are also exstrenly exspensive to collect. Perhaps the most exspensive army in all of 40k unless you get real creative.
Stick to nids. Grab two Tyranofexes, or one tyranofex and one exoshrine. (Rupture cannon/acid spray.) They perform better and are cheaper to collect then 6 hievguards. You wanted carnifexes as well, so that is your last heavy slott unless you run Old One Eye (who is very good.)
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Post by yoritomo on Sept 23, 2020 16:58:11 GMT
I’ll tell you what I tell every new player. Play what you enjoy and don’t worry about wins and losses.
You will not do well with a super competitive list. It takes time to learn what to move, what to shoot, and what you should be targeting. So while you build those skills you may as well play what you think is fun or just looks cool. You’ll pick the game up in time and then you’ll have a better idea of what you need to play with.
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Post by nidzy on Sept 23, 2020 17:00:37 GMT
I'm new to the hobby and just purchased a half-painted flyrant with 2x twin-linked devourers (I heard those were good and it was cheap so I figured it was worth the effort to strip it) as well as 8 genestealers, 12 hormagaunts and a hive tyrant, all on the sprue. From what I can tell, mixing your grunt units isn't as good as specializing and having more of the same. If that's generally true, I'd much rather get a broodlord and specialize with the genestealers. I'm wondering if it's worth using the hive tyrant box to make a swarmlord for the genestealer slingshot technique or whether I should make another flyrant and have 2. I'd like to know what else I should be looking to add to my army as well as which upgrades I should use in order to have a decent 1000pt+ list. I'm currently thinking of having a large swarm of genestealers with a broodlord and a couple of carnifexes (I've always loved their almost spherical profile, like a huge mutant armadillo), the flyrant with the TL devourers (or two), as well as some tunneling bugs or maybe a GSC option for a fast attack. I've also heard the GSC mortar teams are good so I might want to include some of those. Also in the future I might want to add some GSC tanks in. Is there a limit to how many GSC units you can have in a nid list? Sorry if anything I said is ignorant, I'm essentially completely new to the gameplay aspect of 40k since I was intimidated by it all for the longest time. I've been thinking about starting to collect and play nids for years and I've always loved the aesthetic of vast swarms of writhing, sharp-clawed bugs rushing fearlessly forward to tear apart their enemies whilst being interspersed by hulking, chitin-encrusted monsters that blast their way through with huge bio weapons Welcome, a couple of tips that haven't been offered: Think about what you want from this game. For years I played super casually but in the last 3-4 years I have radicalized a bit as a competitive (albeit rather unsuccessful) player. I am not getting a sense that you or maybe even your group are working to jump out and super optimize early, so just be aware that people (like me) might try to offer advice that nudge you that way. SO, if you want to buy something because it is cool then just buy it and paint it and enjoy it. In fact, I strongly recommend you only buy things you really like and enjoy. This hobby is very much a marathon rather than a sprint. If you buy things you love you will always be satisfied. In terms of actually playing: find a good group or a couple of friends you can really dig in and figure it out with. On your actual list: it sounds like you like genestealers. From a competitive mindset they aren't all that great this edition, but they are still my favorite unit in the book and I love them dearly. Swarmlord is a great choice for them. I would probably try to run 30+ genestealers with the swarmlord in my 1k list which eats up a big chunk of your points. If you want an easy shooting unit to slot in to any list, I recommend picking up 6 hive guard. They will scale to any point level. Good luck and have fun! |
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Post by muchonobueno on Sept 23, 2020 17:40:34 GMT
Thank you so much for the replies everyone; you've given me a lot of interesting things to think about. I reckon I'll carefully chop off the TL devourers on the flyrant and magnetize everything that comes in the hive tyrant box so that I keep every possible choice of weapons open for it. I'll assemble the hive tyrant but magnetize the head and arms so that it can be a swarmlord or hive tyrant, again with all the options. I'll look towards getting 30 genestealers total as well as a broodlord before expanding my hormagaunts to say 60 and collecting a similar number of termagants later on to open up my options. Termagants also have the free rippers so I'll have those open as an option. The next models I'll be looking to snag are a couple of exocrines and the old one eye brood. It seems as though there is a bit of contention as to whether hive guard or exocrines should be used; I'll go with the exocrines for now since I prefer the dichotomy between the large heavy-weight bugs and the sea of expendable drones at their feet. Would it be worth investing in a GSC apc to house some of the genestealers and have it plow into the enemy lines before unloading its horrific cargo? For a 1000pt army what are the requirements for unit types? Are there lower/upper limits on how many of a unit type I may have (i.e. no more than 2 HQs or something). Where could I find this information for reference? Many thanks once again  |
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Post by killercroc on Sept 23, 2020 18:08:16 GMT
The main reason you'd want to run Genestealers at max squad size is because at 10+ they get an extra attack each, so while it takes more models to fill out a unit and gives you less board control as an equal amount of models in two squads the extra attacks can really come in handy. Also all those extra attacks increases the chance for a rend to get through those hard to crack nuts, Broodlord is kind of a necessity with Genestealers. They're a rather large point dedication and getting as much out of them as possible is a good idea. Plus the Broodlord can go toe-to-toe with most any other non-named character in the game so having him to take down massive threats is nice too. Getting enough rippers through Termagant boxes alone takes some time. I have a fairly large swarm and have been collecting for years and even then putting 3 Rippers to a base I've been able to make 18 Ripper bases. I went with 3 bodies cause 3 wounds on the model so it made sense, also the blank spaces on the base are easy to fill in with rocks and shrubs to make the bases seem active. You might want to look to get some on Ebay or the ForgeWorld Ripper bases, a bit more expensive but impressive looking.
Exocrine are pretty handy and are a tad more flexible than Hive Guard. Their gun works good against all types of Infantry and even Tanks, and with the +1 damage stratagem they can be really good at even taking down heavy tanks or heavy elite Infantry. Hive guard are nice as they can shoot from hiding but overall their weapons aren't super powerful unless you're taking maximum squad sizes and have them dedicate firing at tanks. While they get 2 shots each the low damage makes them more of a gamble at trying to take down a tank. You'll find you're having to take squads of 6 and sometimes using the shoot twice stratagem to take down hearty vehicles, which is a huge resource sink to take down something that's probably not even half their cost. They can be good, but most times I see people sing their praises it's because they take 18 of them in a Kronos detachment. If there isn't enough terrain to hide them or your opponent has some artillery they can be taken our surprisingly fast.
Personally I wouldn't invest in GSC at the same time as Tyranids. As now detachments cost you command points instead of gaining them you're going to be hard pressed to maximize their effectiveness. You're better off just using the new outflank strategic deployment and spend the 3 Command Points to have 20 Genestealers show up 9" away on a side table edge. Gene Cult is like Tyranids, they look cool and have some tricks but it'll take you a while of playing the army to get a good feel how to use them effectively, and they die by the handful and aren't cheap in points or money. Locking yourself into two expensive and tactically unique armies to work with at the same time is gonna give you more trouble than it's worth right out of the gate.
As for the army size, how many of what model you can have depends on the detachment. All units are limited to only 1 if it's unique and up to 3 if it's not a Troop or a Transport. All that should be in the army section of the main rules though.
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