Warriors with rending claws and toxin saks

[asvic]

Sept 18, 2020 14:35:44 GMT purestrain said:

Sept 18, 2020 14:28:39 GMT asvic said:

Rending claws are not "one type".
Rules: "In order to make several attacks at once, all of the attacks must have the same BS\WS. They must also have the same S and AP, the must inflict the same Damage..."
As rending claws attack don't have the same AP (and not the same damage in case of toxins) they can't be rolled together and MUST be resolved one at a time.

I dont get what the problem is. You only have to separate the different types, in this case, all of the 6 rolls can be saved together and any roll that wasn't a 6 can be saved together.

But you can't do that per rules! That's illegal! Per rules, only resolving attack one by one is legal, and so fast dice can be used ONLY when it won't interfere with the result (at least that's the intent and I hope there is no hole in the fast-dice rule (which is not even a rule, it's absent in the free core rules, it's in the "tips and tricks" section) that will allow to use it not as intended). Resolving attacks not one by one with different damage WILL interfere with the result in some cases (1 or 2 damage against 2wound target, for example), so only roll them one at a time.

[purestrain]

Sept 18, 2020 14:48:18 GMT asvic said:

Sept 18, 2020 14:35:44 GMT purestrain said:

I dont get what the problem is. You only have to separate the different types, in this case, all of the 6 rolls can be saved together and any roll that wasn't a 6 can be saved together.

But you can't do that per rules! That's illegal! Per rules, only resolving attack one by one is legal, and so fast dice can be used ONLY when it won't interfere with the result (at least that's the intent and I hope there is no hole in the fast-dice rule (which is not even a rule, it's absent in the free core rules, it's in the "tips and tricks" section) that will allow to use it not as intended). Resolving attacks not one by one with different damage WILL interfere with the result in some cases (1 or 2 damage against 2wound target, for example), so only roll them one at a time.

You aren't resolving the damage with all the dice man. Say you have a 5 man warrior squad with claws, 15 attacks.

8 hit and 5 wound, 3 of which are 6s. THIS IS A LEGAL ROLL

Now. You HAVE to put the different types of dice into separate pools (ap-4 2d attacks in one pool, ap-1 1d attacks in the other)

You then tell your opponent which ones to start with, they then choose a model to take EVERY SINGLE ROLL, REGARDLESS OF TYPE, FROM EACH POOL IN SEQUENCE until the model dies, they then choose another.

[asvic]

Sept 18, 2020 14:53:33 GMT purestrain said:

Sept 18, 2020 14:48:18 GMT asvic said:

But you can't do that per rules! That's illegal! Per rules, only resolving attack one by one is legal, and so fast dice can be used ONLY when it won't interfere with the result (at least that's the intent and I hope there is no hole in the fast-dice rule (which is not even a rule, it's absent in the free core rules, it's in the "tips and tricks" section) that will allow to use it not as intended). Resolving attacks not one by one with different damage WILL interfere with the result in some cases (1 or 2 damage against 2wound target, for example), so only roll them one at a time.

You aren't resolving the damage with all the dice man. Say you have a 5 man warrior squad with claws, 15 attacks.

8 hit and 5 wound, 3 of which are 6s. THIS IS A LEGAL ROLL

Now. You HAVE to put the different types of dice into separate pools (ap-4 2d attacks in one pool, ap-1 1d attacks in the other)

You then tell your opponent which ones to start with, they then choose a model to take EVERY SINGLE ROLL, REGARDLESS OF TYPE, FROM EACH POOL IN SEQUENCE until the model dies, they then choose another.

This is not a legal roll at all, because the ap and damage are not determined until the wound roll. As they are undefined, you can't roll them all at once. Please, reread the section about fast dice in the rulebook.

[hivefleetkerrigan]

Sept 18, 2020 14:56:46 GMT asvic said:

Sept 18, 2020 14:53:33 GMT purestrain said:

You aren't resolving the damage with all the dice man. Say you have a 5 man warrior squad with claws, 15 attacks.

8 hit and 5 wound, 3 of which are 6s. THIS IS A LEGAL ROLL

Now. You HAVE to put the different types of dice into separate pools (ap-4 2d attacks in one pool, ap-1 1d attacks in the other)

You then tell your opponent which ones to start with, they then choose a model to take EVERY SINGLE ROLL, REGARDLESS OF TYPE, FROM EACH POOL IN SEQUENCE until the model dies, they then choose another.

This is not a legal roll at all, because the ap and damage are not determined until the wound roll. As they are undefined, you can't roll them all at once. Please, reread the section about fast dice in the rulebook.

I hear you and agree with you. I have seen ppl mess up and then it's a matter of "well, do we reroll or not?" In that case, I think the defender gets to do the saves if the same type in whatever order they want.

As a note: I will fast roll rending claws if the AP difference can be easily taken into account. So if I'm rolling vs 1 wound models with a 5+ save I'd have x many at AP-1 and y many going through the save. I won't fast roll for different damage though on multiwound models (single wound it doesn't matter). It's a bit illegal but makes the game go faster and therefore be more enjoyable.

[afewveiws]

Its perfectly legal to roll all the to hits at the same time. The most legal way while makeing it as fast as possible would be to roll enough wound rolls to kill the model if they succeed and then save against them before proceeding again.

So in the case of toxic randing claws against a 3 wound target you could roll 2 to wound rolls at a time. Since 1 (regardless of out come) wouldn't be enough to kill a single model with 3 wounds. But in the case of 1 wound models you could roll all of them since the extra damage izs irrelavent. 2 wound models are in an awkward place in this scenario since 1 could be enough to kill it so 1 at a time would be the .most legal.

[purestrain]

Sept 18, 2020 14:56:46 GMT asvic said:

Sept 18, 2020 14:53:33 GMT purestrain said:

You aren't resolving the damage with all the dice man. Say you have a 5 man warrior squad with claws, 15 attacks.

8 hit and 5 wound, 3 of which are 6s. THIS IS A LEGAL ROLL

Now. You HAVE to put the different types of dice into separate pools (ap-4 2d attacks in one pool, ap-1 1d attacks in the other)

You then tell your opponent which ones to start with, they then choose a model to take EVERY SINGLE ROLL, REGARDLESS OF TYPE, FROM EACH POOL IN SEQUENCE until the model dies, they then choose another.

This is not a legal roll at all, because the ap and damage are not determined until the wound roll. As they are undefined, you can't roll them all at once. Please, reread the section about fast dice in the rulebook.

Actually the damage and ap are resolved differently BECAUSE of the wounds result. and there is no caveat about post roll resolutions in the fast dice section.

It also states that weapons affected by the same abilities can be rolled together, so rending isn't an issue at all from what I see.

Thirdly they even say that the enemy takes them one at a time, so nothing about this in the entry seems wrong.

[LordPathos]

Look at the debate I started.

[aekiel]

Feels like you guys are having 2 different arguments.

The OP was asking if the opponent can choose to stagger the 2 damage and 1 damage saving throws so that there's more chance of overkill on W2 units.

So the opponent is looking to roll the single wound throws until they take a wound, then roll the 2 damage throws so that it targets the model with only 1 wound remaining. If it kills that model then they go back to the single wound throws to try the same thing again.

I don't have the rulebook in front of me at the moment. It's there anything that explicitly prevents that from happening?

[No One]

aekiel said:

I don't have the rulebook in front of me at the moment. It's there anything that explicitly prevents that from happening?

Yes. You don't fast dice stuff with variable stats (i.e. AP/damage). So you roll hit, wound, save->next.

[purestrain]

Sept 21, 2020 11:24:19 GMT aekiel said:

Feels like you guys are having 2 different arguments.

The OP was asking if the opponent can choose to stagger the 2 damage and 1 damage saving throws so that there's more chance of overkill on W2 units.

So the opponent is looking to roll the single wound throws until they take a wound, then roll the 2 damage throws so that it targets the model with only 1 wound remaining. If it kills that model then they go back to the single wound throws to try the same thing again.

I don't have the rulebook in front of me at the moment. It's there anything that explicitly prevents that from happening?

Single dice rolls can make the rending attacks come with no discourse, as each die has to be saved as such before the next using single dice rolling.

But they still get to declare what model within the unit takes the attack(s) in question, so there is nothing stopping them from choosing every single 1w model that fail their saves until the 2w model is left, or from taking 2d twice on a 3 damage model, as the rules made it so even after you fail all of any set of attacks (ie you whiff all your pick attacks with abby, and go at them with the rending claws, or both and go after them with warriors in the same phase) the model that was targeted STILL has to take those saves until it dies.

[aekiel]

Sept 21, 2020 11:35:46 GMT No One said:

aekiel said:

I don't have the rulebook in front of me at the moment. It's there anything that explicitly prevents that from happening?

Yes. You don't fast dice stuff with variable stats (i.e. AP/damage). So you roll hit, wound, save->next.

Yeah, the implication there was that it would all be slow rolled. It was just the order of the dice rolls being used to force some overkill that could cause problems.

It's a very gamey way of rolling the dice but there are plenty of people out there who would take advantage of it.

[aekiel]

Sept 21, 2020 11:50:01 GMT purestrain said:

Sept 21, 2020 11:24:19 GMT aekiel said:

Feels like you guys are having 2 different arguments.

The OP was asking if the opponent can choose to stagger the 2 damage and 1 damage saving throws so that there's more chance of overkill on W2 units.

So the opponent is looking to roll the single wound throws until they take a wound, then roll the 2 damage throws so that it targets the model with only 1 wound remaining. If it kills that model then they go back to the single wound throws to try the same thing again.

I don't have the rulebook in front of me at the moment. It's there anything that explicitly prevents that from happening?

Single dice rolls can make the rending attacks come with no discourse, as each die has to be saved as such before the next using single dice rolling.

But they still get to declare what model within the unit takes the attack(s) in question, so there is nothing stopping them from choosing every single 1w model that fail their saves until the 2w model is left, or from taking 2d twice on a 3 damage model, as the rules made it so even after you fail all of any set of attacks (ie you whiff all your pick attacks with abby, and go at them with the rending claws, or both and go after them with warriors in the same phase) the model that was targeted STILL has to take those saves until it dies.

Alright. That makes sense. It means W2 models have an advantage against toxin sacs through the order of dice rolling, which takes away some of their use.

[No One]

I'm not sure what you're saying. You can't game the order of slow rolls. Slow roll is the entire thing, one at a time. Your opponent has no choice in the order of saves: they roll the single save you give them, take the wound/s. Then repeat. Edit: Didn't see previous post.

[aekiel]

Just to clarify, because I'm getting conflicting information here. Is it the attacker or defender who allocates the wound?

So if we've done 3 wounds to a unit that hasn't taken any damage, 2 wounds of which are doing 1 damage and 1 wound is doing 2 damage. Is it the attacker that says "you're rolling the 2 damage roll first" or does the defender get to choose that?

If it's the attacker then there's no problem because we can force the opponent to roll all the 2 damage saves first. If it's the defender then they can cheese it by rolling in the way I said previously.

[No One]

aekiel said:

If it's the attacker then there's no problem because we can force the opponent to roll all the 2 damage saves first. If it's the defender then they can cheese it by rolling in the way I said previously.

Defender allocates wounds, but in this case neither. Because:

So if we've done 3 wounds to a unit that hasn't taken any damage, 2 wounds of which are doing 1 damage and 1 wound is doing 2 damage.p

You don't do this. It isn't a wound pool or whatever: because they don't have the same damage/AP, you can't fast roll. You roll a dice, you get a 6. It's 2 damage -4, your opponent takes their save, something dies. You roll a dice, get a 5, takes their save, take a wound. Roll another dice, get a 6, wounded guy dies. There's no cheesing: note this will generally disadvantage variable damage, but the defender can't force that disadvantage. (Of course, if you do just fast roll and don't sort out a 'semi-fast roll' thing with your opponent, they do get to allocate wounds as they please).