Would you play against a 3D printed army ?

[gigasnail]

they mayad.

[mattblowers]

Aug 24, 2020 19:21:55 GMT killercroc said:

Is there a legit reason you don't want people to use models they made or are you just bitter they got a work around and you didn't and you spent more money than them and you just want to throw a fit because of it.

You really want a legit answer? Seems more like a rhetorical question.

[killercroc]

Well besides all of why I typed out which wasn't addressed and clipping that one part, yes. I acknowledged paying to support the company/business of the products one uses and it makes sense to be against it for that. But besides that, not counting the money GW/FW doesn't get for selling a model If a model looks, smells, tastes and feels as good as an official one what reason would you have to not play against it.

[mattblowers]

Aug 24, 2020 20:03:56 GMT killercroc said:

Well besides all of why I typed out which wasn't addressed and clipping that one part, yes. I acknowledged paying to support the company/business of the products one uses and it makes sense to be against it for that. But besides that, not counting the money GW/FW doesn't get for selling a model If a model looks, smells, tastes and feels as good as an official one what reason would you have to not play against it.

That's kinda the gist of your argument the rest of the wall of text notwithstanding. You go through reasons and then basically distilled it to: "do you have legit reason or are you just bitter because they spent less than you?"

But let's address what you said.

"I'm curious how many people are against 3D printed models because deep down there is a "Well I bought my overpriced plastic toys so you should have to buy them too! It's not fair you made your own!" ... "Well you didn't buy the over-costed versions so it's not fair"

Kinda the same thing I quoted is it not?

"Here is an interesting point, what if you print something GW/FW hasn't made a model for but has rules for, surely that's acceptable. But what if GW/FW then later creates kits for them, does that player then have to get rid of all his old minis they printed to get the official ones? I mention this because I have a friend who is big into 30k and has printed a lot of helmets, weapons, upgrades and even models because when it came down to it FW never bothered to make them. And you cannot buy what doesn't exist. When you look at the 3D printed stuff you can't even tell it apart from the FW stuff unless it's pointed out because he has one of those high end $5000 printers he uses to make minis and design 3D models as a side job. Stuff looks legit good."

I don't know anyone that has a problem with bits. If you build a model that they don't make or isn't available then I have no issue. I made my dimecharon from kit bashed GW parts because it was unavailable for some time. Now that it is available I'm not going to repurchase, but I know that some major tournaments ban models that aren't official GW/FW and that's a risk I'll take. I spent more on bits than the model cost, so it wasn't to save money.

"Lets face it GW does 3D modeling for their designs now, none of their new stuff is hand sculpted. Difference is GW designs it, splits it and makes plastic molds and jacks the price up higher than the Burj Khalifa and you better be damn grateful you have the privilege of buying their products."

That's how capitalism works. You pay an artist or company for their IP and design. The product isn't the only cost. If price is the issue, there are cheaper games.

"Currently I have no 3D printed models in my armies but I do split in 3rd part models and bits because, heck I like them. Sometimes it's conversions and sometimes it's full models. I dislike GWs noise marine arms and they refuse to make plastic kit for them, so I bought normal plastic CSM and then got lots of bits from lots of 3rd part companies and made Noise marines out of 4 different companies. It's not about the price for me, it's about having fun and cool models and GW just doesn't always offer that. I've found places like Anvil Industries and Wargame Exclusive can sculpt models that blow the pants off of what GW makes, and they're still resin and done by 1 person companies. Why GW/FW still have ugly outdated miscast kits from lowest-bidder resin I don't know. Why still with how poor t heir products are people defend them tooth and nail I don't know even more. I'm sorry but the multi-million dollar companies don't need their fans to defend them. The fans should old the companies to task so they continue to make quality products that are worth our hard earned dollars."

Again, no one has issues with bits or alternative bobs and sculpts to make your army unique. The rule of cool always wins, at least in the circles I play. I love a lot of the Kromlech stuff but they cost a bit more than GW, it isn't about price, it's rule of cool (or in the case of Orks, the rule of Kool). I have a buddy that made a doof wagon with a bluetooth speaker that spewed flames and smoke (had the AoS orc guys with bones converted to a drummer), it was incredibly kool kit. It was at a team tournament, IIRC they played it as a battlewagon. Everyone loved it. That being said, if I'm playing a model that is significantly different from the official model I bring along a copy the actual one in case one of my opponents complains. I don't want to lose a game because I got it pulled for coloring outside the lines.

So outside of bits and conversions your 'question' is just boiled down to "aren't you just mad because they paid less than you?"

Kinda, yeah. If you did it just to save money or skip the latest buying craze queue, I'm not into that.

So now I realize that I'm getting into the morality of it, something I had hoped to avoid. I'm not trying to be the 40K police. But if someone is doing it simply to save a few bucks what you are essentially doing is telling everyone else to screw off, you are perfectly fine benefiting from other peoples investment without putting any in yourself. To date I haven't met someone that is doing it because they simply can't afford an admittedly expensive hobby. When the medical bills were pilling up a few years ago I didn't buy knockoff models, I just stopped buying models and focused on building and painting what I had, it didn't matter to me if I fell behind the meta. It's the same reason I don't use pirated rules (a lot do even though every major tournament I know of requires you to have a legit copy of the rules) or download bootleg movies or music. I find it morally outside the lines for me to try to benefit from something I'm not willing to pay for. I think that is a far different thing than being a cry baby because I paid more than you did. I really dislike the viewpoint that those of us that hold this position are (please do not swear) for frowning on that behavior. It's essentially saying, "I'm going to what benefits me the most and you're an (please do not swear) if you don't like it."

I think there are some things that you should do out of respect for the game: buy your models so it benefits the maker/FLGS, show up to events with leggit rules, have a fully painted army on the table whenever possible. The last I'm least stuffed about (though I'm a big 'play it painted' proponent), especially when its the FLGS rule for encouraging new players to get their models on the table.

All that being said, I've never refused to play someone over it as I stated in my first response to the OP. If you're fine with it, go for it. Just don't get cranky if someone questions your motive.

TLDR: read my first response. Trying to fair to killercroc saying I didn't give his full post a fair response.

[gigasnail]

"your 'question' is just boiled down to "aren't you just mad because they paid less than you?"

Kinda, yeah."

you didn't have to write anything else. we got it.

[killercroc]

I know I was being kind of a dick about it but I feel like sometimes ya gotta be to really drill in your point around here.

So with what you said I guess my follow up question would be, if 100% cast is not ok but rule-o-cool is fine there has to be a hard cut off line. What is the exact point of where someone goes too far and you're not ok with printed models. Head swap is ok, then what about weapon? Torso? pouches and ammo? Does the model have to be at least 51% GW before it's gone too far? Now answering this would just be your personal opinion so I'm sure everyone has their own limit which is the point I was trying to make earlier. And if your group is fine with custom minis and casts and conversions that's great.

"That's how Capitalism works" yeah that's nice when talking about ways system function but we're talking about a bunch of nerds with too much money playing with plastic toy soldiers. GW charges their rates because IP, Designers, Cost and blah blah blah however bunch of words one can throw together to try and justify the costs. But there is one thing not factored in there. You. As an Individual. Are not. Games. Workshop. Nor are any of the people who won't play against cast models for whatever reason. If Games Workshop the company doesn't want unofficial models in their store yeah I can get that, but that's not what we're talking about. We're talking about the individual gamers and reasons why they won't play them. So "It's Capitalism" is the reason for their costs but it's not a valid reason to not play against alt-sculpts. Again you said you're fine with it but not everyone is, which is why I made the point of "You didn't pay as much as I did and it's not fair" and why I'm not seeing valid reasons for not wanting to play against printed models.

Heck to be fair even the "it looks bad" excuse is hardly a good excuse. Sure someone could print a dumpy looking model but I have lots of 2nd ed models and those are dumpy and ugly as well. They're not the newest models either, you could even try and argue they're not official models any more because none of the sculptors work at the company and those models are not available or advertised any more. My point here is, yeah it looks ugly but would you also not play against ugly GW models too or is that just an excuse and being inconsistent.

One concern I have is, if these are ok form local store play in reality why aren't they ok at events/ I could be wrong but I thought GW doesn't hold or sponsor events at all and gives no support. So an event, even if it's for 40k, shouldn't have issue with casts, conversions or bit-builds of models that didn't exist at the time because... well they're not official events. They're official unofficial events ran by a bunch of hobbiests.

Towards your final point, if someone does it to save a few bucks they're telling everyone to screw off. Does that also apply to models bought on Ebay? I mean logically it's the same, they bought models specifically to save money, same as printing. And now you could argue that someone already bought those models so GW got their cut so who care what someone does with them. Well independent stores buy models at wholesale cost, sell them to customers for a % and that's their cut. So in those environments, all the models on the shelves GW already got their cut from too, so you buying those models or not gives GW no extra money. You could, in a point of view, seriously have an entire army and not give one dollar directly to GW. Those models were in the store and would be there regardless of you buying them so GW already got their cut, at this point printing takes no money away from GW. All those models GW got their cut from the local store And again, pay to support your store which isn't the point in this scenraio. If someone trying to save money by casting is bad then buying used models would also have to be bad.

[mattblowers]

Aug 24, 2020 21:34:21 GMT gigasnail said:

"your 'question' is just boiled down to "aren't you just mad because they paid less than you?"

Kinda, yeah."

you didn't have to write anything else. we got it.

More like: I'm annoyed with those that want the free ride on those of us that pay coat tails.

[gigasnail]

there's nothing about 3d printing that's a free ride. you are so far off base it's not even funny.

i mean, well, it is funny, but whatever. feel free to keep shouting at clouds.

[mattblowers]

Aug 24, 2020 21:46:41 GMT gigasnail said:

there's nothing about 3d printing that's a free ride. you are so far off base it's not even funny.

i mean, well, it is funny, but whatever. feel free to keep shouting at clouds.

Keep reading what you like, ignore the rest.

Hive wouldn’t be the same without our grumpy resident curmudgeon.

[mattblowers]

Aug 24, 2020 21:41:21 GMT killercroc said:

If someone trying to save money by casting is bad then buying used models would also have to be bad.

A used market doesn't devalue the original market. The fact that there is a used market supports the parent company. I've bought armies, found out I didn't like the way they played so I ebayed them and used the money to buy more plastic crack. They sold more, not less, because of the secondary market. Same is true of designer clothing, accessories, and watches. Knock-offs drive down the value of the original in a way that the used market doesn't.

[gigasnail]

there wasn't a need to do a deep dive psychoanalysis of your wall of text. your reasons are pretty clear and somewhat petty, but they were plainly stated the first time. work out.

Aug 24, 2020 22:12:14 GMT mattblowers said:

Aug 24, 2020 21:41:21 GMT killercroc said:

If someone trying to save money by casting is bad then buying used models would also have to be bad.

A used market doesn't devalue the original market. The fact that there is a used market supports the parent company. I've bought armies, found out I didn't like the way they played so I ebayed them and used the money to buy more plastic crack. They sold more, not less, because of the secondary market. Same is true of designer clothing, accessories, and watches. Knock-offs drive down the value of the original in a way that the used market doesn't.

the same can be said for 3d printing. i haven't spent any less on GW, that's for damn sure.

[killercroc]

Wait... are you saying because there are knock-off Rolex the price of actual Rolex watches goes down? I'm sorry I don't buy that.

Used markets don't often effect the original market because the people that buy from them aren't buying from the originals and often only buy things because they are cheaper. There will always be people buying Original product, there will be individuals buying/selling used products 3rd party and recasts are just alternative products. It's like, I can buy a Ford and that's money to Ford. I can buy a used Ford from Jim-Bob and that's money to Jim-Bob and nothing to Ford. Or I can buy a Volkswagen and that's not money to Ford but I wasn't going to by a Ford in the first place so Ford didn't lose money. And I could buy a wrecked car and fix it and drive that and no money goes to any car company, but they still make money from the people who were going to buy their cars in the first place.

Why not just say literally all money not spent on GW is GW losing money.

[gigasnail]

that's certainly how GW views it.

ok i'll stop. at least make me work for it.

[mattblowers]

Glad I could bring a ray of sunshine into your dreary world!

[swarm492]

As a whole I support GW.

But yes I would play against a 3d printed army. Without a second thought. I'd play against a proxied army, or a army of cardboard stand-ins.

GW has been making money hand over fist, their own reports say so, the margins on some of their products must be laughable. While their profits are great I do think GW hurts their own marketshare by pricing people out.

No one starts with 3d prints. No one starts with chinacast.

I want GW to do well

I am also an opportunist