Hive guard shooting at not visible characters

[jacobi]

Can a Hive Guard shoot at characters that are not visible in 9th? Any FAQ or rules that state this?

[garg]

Sure, so long as they are the closest or there is no monster/vehicle/unit of 3+ models within 3" of that character.

[jacobi]

I have always played it as such, but the rules writing is debatable. Are there any rules or FAQ that supports this?

[acehilator]

Ignoring LoS does not let you ignore character targeting rules. There is no need for a FAQ.

[yoritomo]

If the character is not within 3” of a qualifying unit than you may target him freely. If the character is within 3” of a qualifying unit then he does need to be visible in order for you to target him. This is clearly stated in the rules and ignoring LoS does not change this.

[jacobi]

Should have been more specific. I know you cannot shoot at characters if they are within units of 3 models or vehicles/monsters, just if they are on their own.

In this case I had an opponent at a tournament today that had one single character hiding in a ruin without any friendly models beside him. Even though my impaler cannon can target units without needing visibility, the Look out Sir rule states you specifically need visibility to target a character. The head judge ruled against me stating that rules as written I need to see the character, even though my weapon says otherwise.

[gorsameth]

Aug 2, 2020 18:10:35 GMT jacobi said:

Should have been more specific. I know you cannot shoot at characters if they are within units of 3 models or vehicles/monsters, just if they are on their own.

In this case I had an opponent at a tournament today that had one single character hiding in a ruin without any friendly models beside him. Even though my impaler cannon can target units without needing visibility, the Look out Sir rule states you specifically need visibility to target a character. The head judge ruled against me stating that rules as written I need to see the character, even though my weapon says otherwise.

The specific 'need los' only applies if said character is within range for Look out Sir (then you can still shoot if he is the closest and visible). If there is no one within 3" that entire text block doesn't apply in the first place.

[hivefleetkerrigan]

Aug 2, 2020 18:10:35 GMT jacobi said:

Should have been more specific. I know you cannot shoot at characters if they are within units of 3 models or vehicles/monsters, just if they are on their own.

In this case I had an opponent at a tournament today that had one single character hiding in a ruin without any friendly models beside him. Even though my impaler cannon can target units without needing visibility, the Look out Sir rule states you specifically need visibility to target a character. The head judge ruled against me stating that rules as written I need to see the character, even though my weapon says otherwise.

That's terrible. I don't think the judge is right that that's as the rule is written though.

The visible in look out sir is stating that even if a model is within 3" of qualifying units, that is overridden if the character is the closest visible model. Characters can be targetted if they can't be seen but are outside of 3" of a qualifying unit if you can target out of LOS. If the character in question was within 3" of a qualifying unit, then I think the judges interpretation was correct.

[gigasnail]

Yeah a character doesnt suddenly become untargetable when he's away from his meat shields.

[yoritomo]

Doesn't surprise me. I've already seen people claim that you need to apply all the conditions before you can shoot at characters (need LoS, closest model, and outside 3" of another mode).

This is one of those rules you're going to have to know like the back or your hand or your opponent is going to screw you over with it.

[kazetanade]

Sometimes it's just TOs and Judges being poor judge of fairness.

By all rights, being visible to be a target is one of the core rules of the shooting phase. This is the same regardless of whether you are a character or not.

Characters have 2 additional qualifiers (has to be within 3" of other unit, has to be closest if so).

Ignoring Line of Sight is just that - it's an ability that allows you to ignore the requirement for sight.

If by removing the line "has to be visible" from the LOS rule, does it change the models interaction with shooting from the core rules (it doesn't say I need line of sight, so I can shoot it with a normal unit if no one else is close)? If so, obviously there is a lapse of judgement here.

If there is no change, meaning that it is properly applied as an extension of the core rules requirements, then a provision that lets you ignore the core rules will likewise allow you to ignore that condition.

[mattblowers]

Aug 2, 2020 18:22:50 GMT gorsameth said:

The specific 'need los' only applies if said character is within range for Look out Sir (then you can still shoot if he is the closest and visible). If there is no one within 3" that entire text block doesn't apply in the first place.

This. If you need line of sight, then the special rule doesn't work. "This weapon can target units that are not visible to the bearer." Come on, I know GW has issues with making rules into a word salad, but this one could not be clearer. This is a case of 8th edition hangover.

[purestrain]

I would agree that hive guard can shoot a character if hes at the forefront of his protectors when you target him with an ignore Los weapon.