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Post by hivefleetkerrigan on Jul 21, 2020 16:48:19 GMT
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Post by kazetanade on Jul 22, 2020 11:50:01 GMT
I missed bikes - 40% cost up immediately discounted them for me. I'm confused he rated bikes high but Abbys low for that purpose, but in all fairness bikes move to centre and cross map way faster than Abbys can and as RC can still shoot. Assuming that shooting is worth anything.
Abbys are sitting at 330 with Hypermorphs, so if we don't take Morphs and take Abbys instead we have a 315pt unit? That's a 25% increase I think from 280 end of last edition? Then we basically do a sneggy and sit them snug to beat up anyone who wants to get funny.
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Post by hivemind03 on Jul 22, 2020 12:32:43 GMT
The bikes were slightly undercosted to begin with and enter the edition with a couple of buffs. I probably won't run them either, but their position is a bit different than Abberants. Abbys were pretty bad at the end of 8th and got another points hike along with a couple of massive nerfs to put the nail in their coffin.
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Post by hivefleetkerrigan on Jul 22, 2020 13:23:52 GMT
I missed bikes - 40% cost up immediately discounted them for me. I'm confused he rated bikes high but Abbys low for that purpose, but in all fairness bikes move to centre and cross map way faster than Abbys can and as RC can still shoot. Assuming that shooting is worth anything. Abbys are sitting at 330 with Hypermorphs, so if we don't take Morphs and take Abbys instead we have a 315pt unit? That's a 25% increase I think from 280 end of last edition? Then we basically do a sneggy and sit them snug to beat up anyone who wants to get funny. Minor correction: a 12.5% increase for pick + abberant only units. I think his point on the bikes was that they can move quickly to grab objectives. The abberants don't have that capability unless you're running four armed emperor or advancing with twisted helix. I'll probably start a theory crafting thread with a few ideas. As much as I like ridge runners I only have one unassembled one, so I'll have to look for other options if I want to play GSC. |
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Post by gorsameth on Jul 22, 2020 15:14:46 GMT
Yes bikes can quickly get an objective. But is there any real chance they will hold it until your turn unless you invest a lot of points into a big unit?
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Post by kazetanade on Jul 22, 2020 17:08:39 GMT
Yes bikes can quickly get an objective. But is there any real chance they will hold it until your turn unless you invest a lot of points into a big unit? the assumption is a max unit likely with 3 Quads. |
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Post by gorsameth on Jul 23, 2020 10:00:21 GMT
Yes bikes can quickly get an objective. But is there any real chance they will hold it until your turn unless you invest a lot of points into a big unit? the assumption is a max unit likely with 3 Quads. Its a lot of points for comparatively little output, but GSC unfortunately has a big lack of alternative options that can be trusted to hold an objective. I personally think we have to look outside of our codex for it. |
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Post by kazetanade on Jul 23, 2020 12:39:10 GMT
the assumption is a max unit likely with 3 Quads. Its a lot of points for comparatively little output, but GSC unfortunately has a big lack of alternative options that can be trusted to hold an objective. I personally think we have to look outside of our codex for it. Personally I think we should skip the bikes, and just go all in on vehicles. 9 Ridgerunners means you'll secure your own and 1 outside objective (its highly unlikely someone is going to destroy 48W of T5 4+ in a single shooting phase in the new edition, even in ideal positioning situations). If you have another 3-4 G.Trucks that are bum rushing up ahead, you'll be able to steal the same amount of objectives on the T1, while still having a withering hail of guns on both other vehicles and general obsec/some elites. You just need to secure your own 1 objective and 1 more to meet base performance - 1 more is always subsceptible to being stolen, and even if you run bikes up on it, it only takes a Nurgling unit to render your bike unit a little bit pointless. Intercessors, Dire Avengers, Rippers, or whatever else the enemy brings will have the same power - they can literally lock you into combat and force you to help them secure 5vp minimum every turn with no downside, while you will be forced to burn cp just to escape and make them vulnerable. Trucks suffer the same issue only until your cargo is deposited, and before that it has non-negligible fire power that will severely hurt all common obsec (lasguns are the desperate vs chaff option) while bikes can be safely ignored for most of the match with smart use of ObSec. 5 man bike units though I think are still powerful, just because Demo Charges that didnt take any further increases. It's an expensive unit that should do decent work against any ILOS vehicles that thinks hiding far away is safe, even if it no longer just bashes Leman Russes and stuff (but you have so many Mining Lasers to do that for you). EDIT: Someone corrected me about Abberrants, they only have a 10% or 15% increase without Hypermorphs, which basically means they are close to their original cost (but lack the output). They arent an amazing trading tool without their specialist detachment, since they can no longer absorb a Cent or Aggressor or SmashCap into them and strike back no matter what, but they are decently durable if you give them a 6++ 4+++ rr1s, while -1damage is also tacked onto them. If I could give them a -1 somehow, like through Dense Cover, they are going to take SO MUCH EFFORT to dislodge that they will forever secure your forward Obj, and can any time move forward to threaten any enemy elite unit, since they still have a wealth of attacks (2A each boostable to 3A, which doubles with rending claws. This unit is capable of overkilling most things they hit, and assuming they engage a unit of Centurions, they have enough power to wipe 2/3 of the unit at least. If there arent that many 4W things, we could consider Hammers, which has much less A and -1 to hit but is guaranteed 2+ to wound on anything not a Wraithblade, with 3dmg you will kill a model for every invul they fail, meaning more often than not you will still kill that unit (a unit of Aggressors or Eradicators is confirm dead, for eg). I also like suicide Saw missles as a concept - I want MSU saws to work. Someone suggested loading them into the Trucks too (the article also suggested this), which is something we should watch for to see if we can make it work. HOW we get them into their ObSec holders is my big question mark, but if we can solve that, we've got some really potent spoiling units. |
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Post by hiveoverall on Jul 24, 2020 8:57:57 GMT
Its a lot of points for comparatively little output, but GSC unfortunately has a big lack of alternative options that can be trusted to hold an objective. I personally think we have to look outside of our codex for it. Personally I think we should skip the bikes, and just go all in on vehicles. 9 Ridgerunners means you'll secure your own and 1 outside objective (its highly unlikely someone is going to destroy 48W of T5 4+ in a single shooting phase in the new edition, even in ideal positioning situations). If you have another 3-4 G.Trucks that are bum rushing up ahead, you'll be able to steal the same amount of objectives on the T1, while still having a withering hail of guns on both other vehicles and general obsec/some elites. You just need to secure your own 1 objective and 1 more to meet base performance - 1 more is always subsceptible to being stolen, and even if you run bikes up on it, it only takes a Nurgling unit to render your bike unit a little bit pointless. Intercessors, Dire Avengers, Rippers, or whatever else the enemy brings will have the same power - they can literally lock you into combat and force you to help them secure 5vp minimum every turn with no downside, while you will be forced to burn cp just to escape and make them vulnerable. Trucks suffer the same issue only until your cargo is deposited, and before that it has non-negligible fire power that will severely hurt all common obsec (lasguns are the desperate vs chaff option) while bikes can be safely ignored for most of the match with smart use of ObSec. 5 man bike units though I think are still powerful, just because Demo Charges that didnt take any further increases. It's an expensive unit that should do decent work against any ILOS vehicles that thinks hiding far away is safe, even if it no longer just bashes Leman Russes and stuff (but you have so many Mining Lasers to do that for you). EDIT: Someone corrected me about Abberrants, they only have a 10% or 15% increase without Hypermorphs, which basically means they are close to their original cost (but lack the output). They arent an amazing trading tool without their specialist detachment, since they can no longer absorb a Cent or Aggressor or SmashCap into them and strike back no matter what, but they are decently durable if you give them a 6++ 4+++ rr1s, while -1damage is also tacked onto them. If I could give them a -1 somehow, like through Dense Cover, they are going to take SO MUCH EFFORT to dislodge that they will forever secure your forward Obj, and can any time move forward to threaten any enemy elite unit, since they still have a wealth of attacks (2A each boostable to 3A, which doubles with rending claws. This unit is capable of overkilling most things they hit, and assuming they engage a unit of Centurions, they have enough power to wipe 2/3 of the unit at least. If there arent that many 4W things, we could consider Hammers, which has much less A and -1 to hit but is guaranteed 2+ to wound on anything not a Wraithblade, with 3dmg you will kill a model for every invul they fail, meaning more often than not you will still kill that unit (a unit of Aggressors or Eradicators is confirm dead, for eg). I also like suicide Saw missles as a concept - I want MSU saws to work. Someone suggested loading them into the Trucks too (the article also suggested this), which is something we should watch for to see if we can make it work. HOW we get them into their ObSec holders is my big question mark, but if we can solve that, we've got some really potent spoiling units. Interesting ideas there, you made me want to take abbys with picks again (without hypermorph), 2*10 each in a truck, twisted helix (so they can turn 1 deploy far in the midfield (if advance rolls aren't too poor) safely behind huge middle board terrain. I don't think we will be seeing many centurions anymore though, seeing how much more they now cost over aggressors and other very efficient SM units |
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Post by hiveoverall on Jul 24, 2020 9:02:13 GMT
I missed bikes - 40% cost up immediately discounted them for me. I'm confused he rated bikes high but Abbys low for that purpose, but in all fairness bikes move to centre and cross map way faster than Abbys can and as RC can still shoot. Assuming that shooting is worth anything. Abbys are sitting at 330 with Hypermorphs, so if we don't take Morphs and take Abbys instead we have a 315pt unit? That's a 25% increase I think from 280 end of last edition? Then we basically do a sneggy and sit them snug to beat up anyone who wants to get funny. I get 320 points for 10 abbys with my info, perhaps I have innaccurate info: 10 naked abbys 220 +10 picks 100 = 320 |
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Post by kazetanade on Jul 24, 2020 9:36:58 GMT
Naw I was doing off memory and hasty maths, not a single number was jotted down. If you got 320 that's prob correct.
So 280 to 320 would be 40pts increase. 10% is 28, 5% is 14, so 15% is 42- got away below average increase.
This unit will have 20A of S5 ap-2 d3D, and another 20A of S5 rending 1D, can add 1A more from MfB.
Assuming TH we're looking S6 which wounds all elites on 4+ worst case, usually being 3+. 14H, 7-10W, 4+/4++ assumed for 4-5 failed saves, so for 2-4W things averaging 2 models dead 1 wounded, with Rending claws score another 1 more dead and 1 wounded? With MfB we boost that up 2 more dead, so that's like 5 Aggressors or Wraithblades or whatever dead?
Then defensive profile... T4 -1D, 2W 6++ 4+++. How much does this tank?
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Post by hiveoverall on Jul 24, 2020 9:40:08 GMT
Naw I was doing off memory and hasty maths, not a single number was jotted down. If you got 320 that's prob correct. So 280 to 320 would be 40pts increase. 10% is 28, 5% is 14, so 15% is 42- got away below average increase. This unit will have 20A of S5 ap-2 d3D, and another 20A of S5 rending 1D, can add 1A more from MfB. Assuming TH we're looking S6 which wounds all elites on 4+ worst case, usually being 3+. 14H, 7-10W, 4+/4++ assumed for 4-5 failed saves, so for 2-4W things averaging 2 models dead 1 wounded, with Rending claws score another 1 more dead and 1 wounded? With MfB we boost that up 2 more dead, so that's like 5 Aggressors or Wraithblades or whatever dead? Then defensive profile... T4 -1D, 2W 6++ 4+++. How much does this tank? No 6++ if Twisted Helix, and 4+++ can't be done unless the unit was not in a truck, nor in reserves. If you go for bladed cog, and they start on the board, they I guess quite tanky honestly. I'd rather try them not too tanky, but well hidden. Perhaps it's not the best loadout for abbys, dunno really. |
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Post by kazetanade on Jul 24, 2020 10:07:29 GMT
Ah yea. I don't fancy TH for them anymore since Hypermorphs are so expensive, and the changes to S multipliers means you can never get 2+ to wound on T7 or T8, which was what made Hypermorphs work (assuming stacking all S modifiers, your max is S13 now since you multiply S before adding S. Previously Strength had the sole exemption from this). The main S benefit of moving from S5 to S6 is doable with MfB too, so I used TH damage as the base.
Fight Twice isn't worth that much when you've lost a majority of your shenanigans with it, and +2 to advance isn't really that key unless you were trying to engage them ASAP out of your deployment zone. So I just don't see AS GREAT (because it's not actually bad) a benefit compared to Bladed Cog, which will give you consistency if you actually hit combat with them while making you tankier.
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Post by hiveoverall on Jul 24, 2020 14:12:51 GMT
Twisted Helix for me is better because pick aberrants can get to strengh 7 with mlight from beyond, though I do agree with you that the fight twice is not that good, espcially when compared to the bladed cog strat. The +2 to advance, if you disembark from a truck, will make the difference between getting everyone in cover/behind obscuring terrain.
If no truck, and you need your abby to be as tanky as possible, then yes, bladed cog abbies are best.
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