Guard codex units inside GSC detachements

[xsquidz]

RAW I believe it is a thing and I am curious if you guys agree.

So we know from the GSC codex, you can take them as an allied detachments, no arguments there.

But, listen to this train of thoughts:

From the GSC Codex:
In addition, to represent Astra Militarum

forces that have been subverted, you can

include ASTRA MILITARUM units and

GENESTEALER CULTS units in the same

matched play army, even though these units

do not have any Faction keywords in common.

In such cases, ignore the ASTRA MILITARUM

units when choosing your army’s Faction.

From the 9th BRB page 245:An intercessor squad has the IMPERIUM and ADEPTUS ASTARTES faction keywords so belongs to both the imperium and Adeptus Astartes Factions.  This means that if an intercessor squad was part of a detachement that specified that all units in it must be from the same faction, all other units in that Detachment must either be from the Imperium Faction or they must all be from the Adeptus Astartes Faction.

Note that it takes about detachements, not army faction.   So GSC says we can ignore the faction keyword and then this says that keyword is all you need for detachements.  Doesn't that not mean you can take Guard codex units inside GSC detachements but they just get the brood brothers keyword instead of a regiment?

Then the GSC faction focus says:
Mike: First off, army building is a bit easier for the Genestealer Cults. The ability to flexibly add Astra Militarum and a large number of units (both big and small) within a single Detachment is a huge advantage since it guarantees you the full 12 starting Command points.
www.warhammer-community.com/2020/06/29/faction-focus-genestealer-cults/

I know the GSC codex goes on to talk about full AM detachments but the way I read this is you could have a GSC detachment and a Guard detachment or you could mix it all in one with cult traits intact and the AM stuff just gets brood brothers.

Thoughts?

I apologize if this has been talked about and beaten to death yet but I didn't see much about it.

[gorsameth]

Oh boy this again.

Yes the blurp on the Faction focus says that.
However the rulebox underneath it is word for word the same as the first 2 paragraphs of the Brood Brother rule section in the GSC codex.
Nothing has changed with 9th.


The problem is that Guard units in a GSC detachment do not get Brood Brother. You only get Brood Brother in an AM detachment, as per the third paragraph of the codex.
So while you, and have always been able to, use AM units in your GSC detachment but it will disable Cult Creed because they don't have, and cannot get, Brood Brother.

The stuff from the faction focus is talking about the Brood Brother units we have in the GSC codex. Infantry squads, HWT's, Leman Russ and Sentinals.

[xsquidz]

Jul 17, 2020 18:52:19 GMT gorsameth said:

Oh boy this again.

Yes the blurp on the Faction focus says that.
However the rulebox underneath it is word for word the same as the first 2 paragraphs of the Brood Brother rule section in the GSC codex.
Nothing has changed with 9th.


The problem is that Guard units in a GSC detachment do not get Brood Brother. You only get Brood Brother in an AM detachment, as per the third paragraph of the codex.
So while you, and have always been able to, use AM units in your GSC detachment but it will disable Cult Creed because they don't have, and cannot get, Brood Brother.

The stuff from the faction focus is talking about the Brood Brother units we have in the GSC codex. Infantry squads, HWT's, Leman Russ and Sentinals.

So the way you read it is I could take a Wyvern from the AM book, put it in a GSC detachment but they would all lose cult traits?

[gorsameth]

Jul 17, 2020 19:17:07 GMT xsquidz said:

Jul 17, 2020 18:52:19 GMT gorsameth said:

Oh boy this again.

Yes the blurp on the Faction focus says that.
However the rulebox underneath it is word for word the same as the first 2 paragraphs of the Brood Brother rule section in the GSC codex.
Nothing has changed with 9th.


The problem is that Guard units in a GSC detachment do not get Brood Brother. You only get Brood Brother in an AM detachment, as per the third paragraph of the codex.
So while you, and have always been able to, use AM units in your GSC detachment but it will disable Cult Creed because they don't have, and cannot get, Brood Brother.

The stuff from the faction focus is talking about the Brood Brother units we have in the GSC codex. Infantry squads, HWT's, Leman Russ and Sentinals.

So the way you read it is I could take a Wyvern from the AM book, put it in a GSC detachment but they would all lose cult traits?

No. because I derped and forgot about the Detachment specific rule. All units in a Detachment still need to share faction keyword, the Brood Brother rule doesn't overwrite that. It overwrites the army wide shared faction rule.

[xsquidz]

Jul 17, 2020 20:24:33 GMT gorsameth said:

Jul 17, 2020 19:17:07 GMT xsquidz said:

So the way you read it is I could take a Wyvern from the AM book, put it in a GSC detachment but they would all lose cult traits?

No. because I derped and forgot about the Detachment specific rule. All units in a Detachment still need to share faction keyword, the Brood Brother rule doesn't overwrite that. It overwrites the army wide shared faction rule.

I agree with that but I think the below that I wrote overwrites it does it not?  That is my whole argument, but if I am wrong, so be it!


From the 9th BRB page 245:An intercessor squad has the IMPERIUM and ADEPTUS ASTARTES faction keywords so belongs to both the imperium and Adeptus Astartes Factions. This means that if an intercessor squad was part of a detachment that specified that all units in it must be from the same faction, all other units in that Detachment must either be from the Imperium Faction or they must all be from the Adeptus Astartes Faction.



Note that it talks about detachments, not army faction. So GSC says we can ignore the faction keyword and then this says that keyword is all you need for detachments. Doesn't that not mean you can take Guard codex units inside GSC detachments but they just get the brood brothers keyword instead of a regiment?

To me the next part about full AM detachments is now saying you could also take a full AM detachement.  Since Imperial is now an allowed keyword I think you could also take GSC and nids in the same detachment but then you would lose hive fleet/cult for sure since the GSC book says: Several GENESTEALER CULTS units also have
 the BROOD BROTHERS keyword. These units
 can be included in a GENESTEALER CULTS
 Detachment without preventing other units in
 that Detachment from gaining a Cult Creed.

[gorsameth]

Because you don't get to blanket ignore the AM faction keyword.

ignore the ASTRA MILITARUM units when choosing your army’s Faction.

Army faction is the overarching keyword for all your units in all your detachments. Here you can ignore AM units.
The rule does not give you permission to ignore the rule that all units in a detachment have to share a faction keyword, because this is separate from your Army Faction. (for completeness this is a separate rule for each detachment except Fortifications/Super Heavy)

As an example I'll point to the Battle Brother rule from Chapter Approved 2019 (and the 9th edition CA tournament book that just leaked)

Battle Brothers
All of the units in each Detachment in your Battle-forged
army must have at least one Faction keyword in common.
In addition, this keyword cannot be CHAOS, IMPERIUM,
AELDARI, YNNARI or TYRANIDS, unless the Detachment
in question is a Fortification Network. This has no effect
on your army Faction.

As you can see, the keyword for your detachments are a separate thing from your army faction.

The Brood Brother rule only applies to the second, Army Faction.