Rip genestealers in 9th

[hiveman75]

Seriously, 300 points to take a unit of 20 stealers and odds are they get shot off the board by blast weapons t1 and t2. Abysmal by gw. They really were lazy with xenos as per usual

[hivefleetkerrigan]

Pure strain genestealers (aka the gsc genestealers) have it even worse at 17 points per model and not getting cult creeds.


I'm debating about taking 10 stealer squads with extended carapace in jormungandr. You'll get a 3+ save and will be decently durable to sit and do actions. I'm not sure if they're worth the points for that though.

[killercroc]

So what they went up 3 points per model to be at 15 now? I mean with the other point changes I've seen that's in line with 'elite' troops. Marines went up 3 points a model too and I think Guard went up 2 points each, at the very least cultists went up 2 so I imagine at the very least Guard did as well. A price increase of 25% when all troops went up between 15-40% isn't the worst thing ever. Plus you can outflank with them now for what 2 CP? So they don't get blasted T1, they show up T2 9" away and charge. Even if they fail the charge they should get a guaranteed charge next turn and if you're smart with your terrain and model placement you should be able to get them in an advantageous location.

Heck they're really not even effected by the .5" attack range as someone pointed out if you checker models on 25mm bases you can still get 3 rows of models in. I tested it myself and when attacking 5 32mm bases I was able to get 16 25mm bases in range.

As for blast, yeah they'll get hit by the max number of shots but most armies don't make use of lots of blast, those that do (like guard) already had a way to re-roll number of shots so they were more likely to get 4-6 shots per big gun anyway so you're really just looking at an average of 2 more shots per large gun. Additionally Leman russ went up I think about 30 points from their standard loadout so 20x Stealers and 2x Russ are same point ratio as they were before. The only change was they'll get on average 2 more hit-rolls with their large guns.

Nids didn't get an overly helpful helping hand with 9th ed or the point changes but I'd hardly say we're out of the game.

[voracious]

Adding the taxes for being competitive (and not being obliterated for blast weapons, of course):


+++Swarmlord kick > 270 pts

+++Trygon tunnel (T2) > 150 pts

+++Tyrannocyte (T2) > 95 pts

+++Kraken Slingshoot > 1CP

+++Strategic Reserves > 2CP


A good balance, yay?

[winterman]

If you take 20 stealers, they go in reserves with a lictor to not get shot off the board. Unless your table as enough ruins to hide them. At the very least Swarmlord should be easier to hide now, which is a plus.

Or you just don't bother with 20 mans because the days of rocketing a unit to tripoint or bad touch tanks is behind us. Its all about MSU to midtable for 4 turns to capture mid table objectives and board control secondaries.

So probably stealers as well as gants go to units of 10. Hopefully they rethink how our 'horde' bonus works in the codex (stealers should get bonus on charge not by model, gants should get bonus on 10 at same target not 20 in unit).

[yoritomo]

*sigh*

Geanstealer are not dead.

If you don't like investing 300 points in a unit of stealer than take less stealers. The goal isn't to take huge blobs of 20 stealers, the goal is to take combat effective units of stealers. The game rewards people who put thought into their army list and use strategy better than their opponent. It does not reward thinking "these guys are good, I'll just take 20 of them".

Has anyone actually done the math on blast weapons yet. If a marine fires a frag missile at your 20 man stealer blob then they would get 6 shots, 4 hits, 2 wounds. With the stealer's 5++ save you have a better than average chance of saving at least one of them. That isn't that scary.

B-b-b-but the thunderfire cannon I hear you say. Fine, we'll look at the thunderfire boogy-man. It has 4d3 shots, so it will get 12 shots, 8 will hit, a little less that 6 will wound, and 2 wounds will be saved for 4 dead stealers. Great, so if your opponent shoots 3 thunderfire cannons at you then he can reduce your unit to a size where the blast rules no longer apply. I've got news for you, if 1 unit can take 6 heavy support shots over the course of two turns then I take that unit more often than not.

Genestealer have bar none the best cover rules they have ever had in 40K. That doesn't matter though, does it?

*sigh*

[gigasnail]

Yeah I dunno, previously you needed a decent sized unit to ensure they made contact with enough models to make it count. 10 man units werent going to cut it then, I dont know they pass muster now.

[acehilator]

Yoriiiiii... lol. Nobody takes missile launchers, so who cares. And Thunderfire Cannons are not there for damage, they are there to cripple the movement of two units per turn. Let's look at that under more realistic scenarios. Obligatory Chapter Master + Lieutnant rerolls. Even if they are only buffing around 800-1000 points given the "two flanks" approach of most of the new mission, their point cost is already inconsequential. Let's be generous and say 25 points for argument's sake.

Thunderfire Cannon - 135 points + 25 buff HQ quota (firing twice with Suppression Fire, slowing melee units with Tremor Shells, -1 to wound penalty):
4d3 = 12 shots times two
24 attacks = 16 + 5.34 hits
21.34 hits = 10.67 + 1.78 wounds
12.45 wounds = 8.3 dead Stealers = 124 points and two ineffective melee units, and with four losses per squad you are guaranteed to get the full benefit for two turns (assuming units of 16).

without Tremor Shells just for the heck of it:
24 attacks = 16 + 5.34 hits
21.34 hits = 14.23 + 2.37 wounds
16.6 wounds = 11.1 dead Stealers = 166 points - pretty cool to recoup your points on a non-LoS 60" platform in one round for 2CP

Without blast, 7 instead of 12 shots, so only 58% of shots. Let's not pretend a 42% increase in firepower isn't as bad as it sounds. Or that the Thunderfire's reputation isn't warranted.

[afewveiws]

It is warrented and the reason reserves are worth looking into. An all stealer approach is bad just as it has been but they are not made useless by 9th.

[calbanite]

Stealers are just bad assault intercessors. Check their stats and points cost...

[xsquidz]

Jul 13, 2020 18:13:44 GMT acehilator said:

Yoriiiiii... lol. Nobody takes missile launchers, so who cares. And Thunderfire Cannons are not there for damage, they are there to cripple the movement of two units per turn. Let's look at that under more realistic scenarios. Obligatory Chapter Master + Lieutnant rerolls. Even if they are only buffing around 800-1000 points given the "two flanks" approach of most of the new mission, their point cost is already inconsequential. Let's be generous and say 25 points for argument's sake.

Thunderfire Cannon - 135 points + 25 buff HQ quota (firing twice with Suppression Fire, slowing melee units with Tremor Shells, -1 to wound penalty):
4d3 = 12 shots times two
24 attacks = 16 + 5.34 hits
21.34 hits = 10.67 + 1.78 wounds
12.45 wounds = 8.3 dead Stealers = 124 points and two ineffective melee units, and with four losses per squad you are guaranteed to get the full benefit for two turns (assuming units of 16).

without Tremor Shells just for the heck of it:
24 attacks = 16 + 5.34 hits
21.34 hits = 14.23 + 2.37 wounds
16.6 wounds = 11.1 dead Stealers = 166 points - pretty cool to recoup your points on a non-LoS 60" platform in one round for 2CP

Without blast, 7 instead of 12 shots, so only 58% of shots. Let's not pretend a 42% increase in firepower isn't as bad as it sounds. Or that the Thunderfire's reputation isn't warranted.

Thunderfires also went up about 50% in points but oh boy did they need it.

[hivemind03]

Jul 13, 2020 15:59:18 GMT killercroc said:

So what they went up 3 points per model to be at 15 now? I mean with the other point changes I've seen that's in line with 'elite' troops. Marines went up 3 points a model too and I think Guard went up 2 points each, at the very least cultists went up 2 so I imagine at the very least Guard did as well. A price increase of 25% when all troops went up between 15-40% isn't the worst thing ever. Plus you can outflank with them now for what 2 CP? So they don't get blasted T1, they show up T2 9" away and charge. Even if they fail the charge they should get a guaranteed charge next turn and if you're smart with your terrain and model placement you should be able to get them in an advantageous location.

Heck they're really not even effected by the .5" attack range as someone pointed out if you checker models on 25mm bases you can still get 3 rows of models in. I tested it myself and when attacking 5 32mm bases I was able to get 16 25mm bases in range.

As for blast, yeah they'll get hit by the max number of shots but most armies don't make use of lots of blast, those that do (like guard) already had a way to re-roll number of shots so they were more likely to get 4-6 shots per big gun anyway so you're really just looking at an average of 2 more shots per large gun. Additionally Leman russ went up I think about 30 points from their standard loadout so 20x Stealers and 2x Russ are same point ratio as they were before. The only change was they'll get on average 2 more hit-rolls with their large guns.

Nids didn't get an overly helpful helping hand with 9th ed or the point changes but I'd hardly say we're out of the game.

Primaris Marines were aggressively pointed to begin with and work extremely well with the new rules. Genestealers, not so much.

Also as I pointed out before, that picture of how to arrange your units in 3 ranks shows how far you have to space your models to get "3 ranks". Take those models, put them shoulder to shoulder. You'll be back down to a real 2 ranks. In 8th you could fit far FAR more models in combat. You are lying to yourself if you think the .5" range is no big deal for genestealers.

[acehilator]

86 to 135, so 63% increase. At least they are "worse" than before, lol.

[murderfiesta]

Jul 13, 2020 15:55:12 GMT hivefleetkerrigan said:

Pure strain genestealers (aka the gsc genestealers) have it even worse at 17 points per model and not getting cult creeds.


I'm debating about taking 10 stealer squads with extended carapace in jormungandr. You'll get a 3+ save and will be decently durable to sit and do actions. I'm not sure if they're worth the points for that though.

They won't be decently durable though, they need the Adaptive Physiology to ignore AP -1 or the Adaptive Physiology to get +2 from Cover in order to ignore the large number of AP -1 anti-infantry weapons out there now.  Otherwise you end up with 18 ppm objective campers :/

[jdot]

rip nyds in general. they have been nerfed to the point of being unusable