Deathwatch keep eating my NIDS

[grubblenmash]

Classic Noob here, 

This just ain't right. NIDS should be munchin on the biomass of the Deathwatch not the other way around. Just started Warhammer and I haven't beaten my bros Deathwatch list since I pulled the Genestealer slingshot two weeks ago. His army mainly has Intercessor/Aggressors squads with a deepstriking Vet team loaded with Frag Cannons (OP) and Storm Bolters. His HQ's are a Smash Captain, Chaplain Dread, and Primaris Captain. He's going to be adding Hellblasters and a Terminator captain. 

This is what i'm thinking of running in our next matchup, thoughts?


++ Battalion Detachment +5CP (Tyranids) [67 PL, 7CP, 988pts] ++



+ Configuration +



Battle-forged CP [3CP]



Detachment CP [5CP]



+ Stratagems +



Progeny of the Hive [-1CP]



+ HQ +



Broodlord [8 PL, 115pts]: Power: Psychic Scream, Resonance Barb



The Swarmlord [15 PL, 250pts]: Power: Catalyst, Power: Onslaught, Warlord



+ Troops +



Genestealers [16 PL, 192pts]: 4x Acid Maw, 16x Scything Talons

. 16x Genestealer: 16x Rending Claws



Ripper Swarms [2 PL, 33pts]

. 3x Ripper Swarm: 3x Claws and Teeth



Termagants [6 PL, 80pts]

. 20x Termagant (Fleshborer): 20x Fleshborer



+ Heavy Support +



Trygon [9 PL, 139pts]: 3x Massive Scything Talons, Toxinspike

. Adaptive Physiology: Dermic Symbiosis



Tyrannofex [11 PL, 179pts]: Acid Spray, Stinger Salvo

. Adaptive Physiology: Dermic Symbiosis



++ Battalion Detachment +5CP (Tyranids - Genestealer Cults) [32 PL, 5CP, 510pts] ++



+ Configuration +



Cult Creed: Cult of the Four-Armed Emperor



Detachment CP [5CP]



+ HQ +



Acolyte Iconward [3 PL, 53pts]



Jackal Alphus [4 PL, 70pts]



+ Troops +



Acolyte Hybrids [9 PL, 127pts]: Cult Icon

. 6x Acolyte Hybrid: 6x Autopistol, 6x Blasting Charges, 6x Cultist Knife, 6x Rending Claw

. Acolyte Hybrid (Heavy Weapon): Autopistol, Heavy Rock Saw

. Acolyte Hybrid (Heavy Weapon): Autopistol, Heavy Rock Saw

. Acolyte Hybrid (Heavy Weapon): Autopistol, Heavy Rock Saw

. Acolyte Hybrid (Heavy Weapon): Autopistol, Heavy Rock Saw

. Acolyte Leader: Autopistol, Cultist Knife



Neophyte Hybrids [4 PL, 62pts]

. 2x Neophyte Hybrid (Flamer): 2x Autopistol, 2x Blasting Charges, 2x Flamer

. 7x Neophyte Hybrid (Shotgun): 7x Autopistol, 7x Blasting Charges, 7x Shotgun

. Neophyte Leader: Autogun, Autopistol



Neophyte Hybrids [4 PL, 80pts]

. 5x Neophyte Hybrid: 5x Autogun, 5x Autopistol, 5x Blasting Charges

. 2x Neophyte Hybrid (Grenade): 2x Autopistol, 2x Blasting Charges, 2x Grenade Launcher

. 2x Neophyte Hybrid (Mining): 2x Autopistol, 2x Blasting Charges, 2x Mining Laser

. Neophyte Leader: Autogun, Autopistol



+ Fast Attack +



Achilles Ridgerunners [8 PL, 118pts]

. Achilles Ridgerunner: Flare Launcher, Heavy Mining Laser, 2x Heavy Stubber

. Achilles Ridgerunner: Flare Launcher, Heavy Mining Laser, 2x Heavy Stubber



++ Total: [99 PL, 12CP, 1,498pts] ++



Created with BattleScribe

[hivefleetkerrigan]

To me, it looks like your list is trying to do too many things. Nids work better if you focus on one or two tactics and do them really well.

If you want to focus on genestealer sling, my recommendation would be to drop the trygon, fex, gaunts, and cult for more genestealers, either venomthropes or a malanthrope, and a second nid detachment.

[Bohxim]

Aye, looks like too little genestealers. They're priority, so they die quickly and with only 1 squad, you'll probably be paying huge points and not getting anything in return..
Sorry I don't play GSC, so can't comment there but maybe if you could drop some of them for an exocrine or hive guards, those do a lot of work against marine troops imo

[irondreddknight]

The scariest part of deathwatch are the troops, the 2+ wound rounds do work. So they're your priority.

Board control really works against Deep strike, force him to DS in his own deployment. This is easily done with gaint carpet. DW are very elite and so they have low model count. Gaunt carpet overwhelms DW through sheer numbers.

Exocrines love facing primaris because of the 2damage. Use pathogenic slime for 3damage against aggressors.

Storm shields are a problem, but if you force him to roll enough dice, then they die just like any marine so bring dakka. Also mortal wounds bypass the invulnerable save, worth bringing a MW source.

Less useful nowadays than it used to be (and this was already a niche piece of advice) but jormangandr gives our monsters a 2+ save against ap0 weapons. Which really counters the 2+ wound rounds they have. Usually on auto bolt rifles or storm bolters. But since they got doctrines and get +1 to ap on turn 2, this is less useful.

If i was to tailor against DW id take 100+ termagants, x3 exocrines, stealer sling, fill to taste.

[kazetanade]

Imma just preface this here ok.

Before the SM megabuff Q3 last year, the 3 biggest fear armies for Tyranids are Grey Knights, Deathwatch, Tau (Knights are a problem for every army that doesnt specifically tech to beat them, so I dont count them; Nids just dont have good answers to them, rather than being afraid of that army).

Deathwatch allow you to snipe Synapse, they have thick goop drop squads which output something like 40 Bolters with reroll to hit and 2+ to wound everything in our army, and 4d6 Mega Damage Flamers per unit. They cost around the same as a unit of Genestealers, but output way more in Bolters and have 1 or 2 3++ to tank a lot of (please do not swear); basically they're design to drop and obliterate whatever they look at, and maybe survive a turn to do a less painful version next round before dying. With the changes to Marine, the base codex and supplements can put out the same tactic at a cheaper price with more consistency with better units, etc etc etc, but the basic principle remains the same; this is an ultra Alpha-strike army that you cannot counter by going 1st, so you must learn how to overcome it going 2nd.

Now that Deathwatch gets all the goodies of SM codex, I'm not sure what that does to their power level; most likely it increased to absurd levels on T2 and T3. Aggressors are the most stat efficient tank/anti-infantry unit in their codex, and Chappy Dreads are their own brand of stupid being characters that are Dreadnoughts who are protected yet carry B.F.Guns. The only thing that's not broken is the Primaris Captain, and that's because it's only "pretty decent" having a sniper rifle that can actually realistically snipe characters out in 2 shooting phases. The addition of Helblasters just means any non-infantry without an invul save we bring is Dead on Arrival (unless you can get creative and force a few -1s to hit on their plasma, and make them not overcharge ever).

What does that mean for you? It means you need to design your list or tactics to survive the alphastrike. You either Blunt it, Tank it, or Bait it. Blunting it means that you stagger your forces so as to not lose too much on the alphastrike, so that you still have some tools you can make use of after he's unloaded his. Tanking it means you're capable of absorbing the damage with acceptable losses. Baiting it means you give him specifically tasty targets which he will feel tempted and obligated to go out of his way for, and hence put him in a bad position.

You can Blunt an alphastrike a few ways, but primarily by staggering with Deepstrikes, or pushing the main things you're worried about out of lethal range (for Bolters, being outside of 12 means they cant rapidfire, cutting down the volume by half; this is a big deal). As a melee army, you can wrap things in combat, forcing his units to try and deal with you in combat too, thereby reducing their actualy potential damage down by way a lot (since they lose their 2+ to wound and potential AP from doctrines). Denying LOS by hiding behind Line of Sight blockers is also a way of blunting and denying the enemy a chance to deal damage to you altogether, but more map and opportunity dependent. Denying Deepstrike targets and Wrapping are your main way of blunting in a Tyranid army.

Tanking it requires a specific type of list; for example, 18 Zoanthropes in Leviathan in a Malanthrope bubble sitting in the mid field. You'll take the punishment head on, but you'll absorb 80% of the enemy's damage and lose 2/3s of a squad of Zoeys. Big trade. But in general, our 3 main ways of Tanking involve a lot of the same homogenous threats (called Multiple Threat Overload, I call it MTO for short), Malanthropes/Maleceptor auras (Maleceptor's is a aura strategem), and Invuls with Catalyst for Feel No Pain.

Baiting is hard; I fail very often with this. But you can try by leaving a very tasty unit in a place where you know they will try to kill it, and by moving things into range to kill it, you trade that thing for whatever he dropped to kill it. You'd always have to trade a high value unit for this, so you need to know how to get efficient trades before attempting this.

On your list: I think the comments are valid. What are you trying to do with it? What's the core unifying concept of how it works? Start with a playstyle, moving into Win Conditions, Obstacles, and How to overcome those obstacles. Here's an article from a decent site that wil give you an idea of what I mean: www.frontlinegaming.org/2017/07/02/writing-an-effective-list-in-8th-edition-40k/