Beginner needing advice

[ferryman]

I'm starting a tyranid army to act as allies for my GSC. But I'd like to build an army that could stand on its own some day so I need some advice where to begin with. 

So far I've bought an old hive tyrant without wings, box of termagants and a box of gargoyles. These were pretty much everything I had access to now plus I thought it's better start with small figures to figure out colour theme. How to arm the tyrant and what are good unit sizes for termagants and gargoyles if I want to use them? 

As for the ally detachment I want something that stays on the table, something heavy. One suggestion was Old one eye and spearhead of carnifexes, is this generally a good idea? I like the Tervigon model but I have no idea is it any good. Never even played against nids. 

Including cult models this is all I have right now:

Hq 
Broodlord
Hive tyrant

Troops

12x Termagant
16x Genestealer


Fast attack
10x Gargoyle

[wound]

Tervigon suffers a problem. It is too big to effectvely hide and if it is hiding it's not paying itself as it is too expensive for what is at most 80 p a turn and rerolls 1. I wouldn't recommend it as a core piece on your detachment. If you want durable i would recommend malanthrops with exocrines(with dermic adaptation) or good old hive guards hidden behind a mountain.

[wound]

Now looking at the models you own I would make the hive tyrant a swarmlord and make a 20 genestealers unit for what's called genestealer sling. Though it's not what you are looking for is you want durable but it's a really good tatic to swarm something fast

[No One]

The main things you want as GSC are T1 impact, durability (though there is options in house with ridgerunners) and shooting (again, ridgerunners/mining laser neos, but those aren't as good as nids for output).

Stealer sling (or shooting) for the former, Jorm/Levi warriors for the 2nd, and hive guard/exos for the last. As above, run the hive tyrant as Swarmlord, try out stealer sling. The main thing I'd suggest grabbing is hive guard: very strong and generally fairly easy to slot in, since you can just hide them and not worry so much about defensive profile (unlike, say, a lone exo, which is just going to attract all the anti-tank).

[ferryman]

Thanks, I was thinking about venom cannon on the tyrant but the swarmlord seems better now that I read about it. So Tervigon is out for now and Hive Guard on the buy list next. Should I buy more gargoyles or termagants or forget about them? I kinda like the idea of having a gargoyle brood since they´re the first thing to invade. I play narrative games pretty often so I try to make my lists as fluffy as reasonable. 

[afewveiws]

Any small model unit is going to want to be as big as you can get it so tgants want to be 30 count. The problem with running tgants is that they are only good as a screen (or as a deepstrike bomb if you equiped them with devourers). This isnt a bad thing for nids but since you are going to be using them as a supportive detatchment for your gsc, you have better options for this role.

So the big question you need to ask yourself is what you want your gsc army to do and then ask what you want the nids to do for them?

You could have the cult go gunline and have a stealer sling functuin as the shock troops, or roll in some monsters to attract fire while the gunline blast away.
-or-
Have the cult go assaulty and bring some nid fire power (maybe even kit for mobility) or stealer sling for a really strong turn 1 assault or have a selection of deepstriker to apply preasure through turn 2 and 3...

There's alot of choices in the mix so im not sure how to help. What are you thinking you want to run in the cult part of the army?

[No One]

ferryman said:

Thanks, I was thinking about venom cannon on the tyrant but the swarmlord seems better now that I read about it. So Tervigon is out for now and Hive Guard on the buy list next. Should I buy more gargoyles or termagants or forget about them? I kinda like the idea of having a gargoyle brood since they´re the first thing to invade. I play narrative games pretty often so I try to make my lists as fluffy as reasonable.

Probably on the terms, though not a huge priority: I'll disagree with the above and say they're better screens due to max 30 man and easier fearless options, but they're not that much better to justify much effort in taking, especially since GSC doesn't usually need screens. Nids might want them, at which point you just take 3 troops for battalion and make sure the term squads are reasonably bulky to function as screens.

Gargs are eh, especially for what you're doing: they don't have ob sec or any combat ability to really give T1 impact, cost more for screening and GSC doesn't really need what gargs can do OK i.e. a fast annoyance (touches/hostages against gunlines). I wouldn't bother.

[ferryman]

May 4, 2020 20:23:38 GMT afewveiws said:

Any small model unit is going to want to be as big as you can get it so tgants want to be 30 count. The problem with running tgants is that they are only good as a screen (or as a deepstrike bomb if you equiped them with devourers). This isnt a bad thing for nids but since you are going to be using them as a supportive detatchment for your gsc, you have better options for this role.

So the big question you need to ask yourself is what you want your gsc army to do and then ask what you want the nids to do for them?

You could have the cult go gunline and have a stealer sling functuin as the shock troops, or roll in some monsters to attract fire while the gunline blast away.
-or-
Have the cult go assaulty and bring some nid fire power (maybe even kit for mobility) or stealer sling for a really strong turn 1 assault or have a selection of deepstriker to apply preasure through turn 2 and 3...

There's alot of choices in the mix so im not sure how to help. What are you thinking you want to run in the cult part of the army?

Sorry for unclear questions. As a support detachment I mostly want durability. I tend to get tabled by turn 3 or 4 usually. But at the same time I want to start a pure nid army, so I´m asking about termagants and gargoyles mainly for future pure nid army. As I´d like to build the support detachment that I can use with either nids battalion or GSC.

3x10 neophytes, 2 with lasers, 1 with seismic.
16 neophytes, shotguns & flamers.
2x20 acolytes, 5 saws, a drill, 15 hand flamers
10 aberrants, 5 picks, 3 hammer, 2 improvised

Ridgerunner, some jackals. Kelermorph, Clamavus.

Abominant, primus, magus, iconward.

Brood brothers, flamers, heavy weapons... These are the fillers.

That´s the main core, I change the list according to games. The way I´ve been using cult is something like this:

Neophytes and brood brother stuff start on the table, try to scratch enemy on T1. They tend to get killed pretty fast, I finished my 3rd and 4th squad during this quarantine so no experience with 4 squads yet. 
Acolytes appear from ambush T2. Sometimes it works and they´re able to consolidate to next unit. More than once I´ve used 2cp to autopass morale and 1cp Cult reinforcements. Even more often they´re left in the open and shot to bits by T3.
Aberrants on T3. Usually they´re all dead by T4 and I´ve got nothing left on the table.

So I want the acolytes and aberrants to fulfill the deep strike melee role. Neophytes and ridgerunner to do the mining laser stuff. So tyranids should fill the role of having board presence, what I´m missing is models that are able to stay on board more than one turn. Toughness 3 and 5+ saves are my main problem with pretty much everything. 

And why I´m asking about T3 gargoyles and termagants, I´m interested if I could use these in a pure tyranid army later since I already bought them. 

[kazetanade]

May 5, 2020 5:22:03 GMT ferryman said:

May 4, 2020 20:23:38 GMT afewveiws said:

Any small model unit is going to want to be as big as you can get it so tgants want to be 30 count. The problem with running tgants is that they are only good as a screen (or as a deepstrike bomb if you equiped them with devourers). This isnt a bad thing for nids but since you are going to be using them as a supportive detatchment for your gsc, you have better options for this role.

So the big question you need to ask yourself is what you want your gsc army to do and then ask what you want the nids to do for them?

You could have the cult go gunline and have a stealer sling functuin as the shock troops, or roll in some monsters to attract fire while the gunline blast away.
-or-
Have the cult go assaulty and bring some nid fire power (maybe even kit for mobility) or stealer sling for a really strong turn 1 assault or have a selection of deepstriker to apply preasure through turn 2 and 3...

There's alot of choices in the mix so im not sure how to help. What are you thinking you want to run in the cult part of the army?

Sorry for unclear questions. As a support detachment I mostly want durability. I tend to get tabled by turn 3 or 4 usually. But at the same time I want to start a pure nid army, so I´m asking about termagants and gargoyles mainly for future pure nid army. As I´d like to build the support detachment that I can use with either nids battalion or GSC.

3x10 neophytes, 2 with lasers, 1 with seismic.
16 neophytes, shotguns & flamers.
2x20 acolytes, 5 saws, a drill, 15 hand flamers
10 aberrants, 5 picks, 3 hammer, 2 improvised

Ridgerunner, some jackals. Kelermorph, Clamavus.

Abominant, primus, magus, iconward.

Brood brothers, flamers, heavy weapons... These are the fillers.

That´s the main core, I change the list according to games. The way I´ve been using cult is something like this:

Neophytes and brood brother stuff start on the table, try to scratch enemy on T1. They tend to get killed pretty fast, I finished my 3rd and 4th squad during this quarantine so no experience with 4 squads yet. 
Acolytes appear from ambush T2. Sometimes it works and they´re able to consolidate to next unit. More than once I´ve used 2cp to autopass morale and 1cp Cult reinforcements. Even more often they´re left in the open and shot to bits by T3.
Aberrants on T3. Usually they´re all dead by T4 and I´ve got nothing left on the table.

So I want the acolytes and aberrants to fulfill the deep strike melee role. Neophytes and ridgerunner to do the mining laser stuff. So tyranids should fill the role of having board presence, what I´m missing is models that are able to stay on board more than one turn. Toughness 3 and 5+ saves are my main problem with pretty much everything. 

And why I´m asking about T3 gargoyles and termagants, I´m interested if I could use these in a pure tyranid army later since I already bought them. 

It is not plug and play, but I've found Zoanthropes to stay on the table pretty long. 

Additionally, you can take 30 x 3 Termagants with Malanthrope and Maleceptor and will stay on the board much longer than usual. Bonus for Leviathan. 30 x 2 will also do it. Problem is that it isnt cheap to do so - Nids doesnt have anything tanky to use as ground presence that's also not stupidly overpriced. If you want cheap and durable, go for Ridgerunners. 

Your issue is the GSC portion - Deepstrike Melee components cant be left hanging in the wind after they're done shooting their load. you need to get them wrapped around something that's not going to hit back and hurt much, so that you at least force them to work much harder to clear you off the board. Likewise, getting both your Abberrants and Acolytes in on the same turn will drastically improve their staying power performance, assuming you successfully get wraps for both, since they'll be force to make decisions on which to clear; and it's a hard decision, since whichever one doesnt get focused down is free to wreck face for yet another turn, or to Return to the Shadows and come out to try again. Once you manage to achieve this portion more consistently, you'll find you need a component to stay on the board and survive Turns 4-6 a lot less. 

Try this instead:

3 Battalions
1st Batt - 2x Acolyte with 3 saws each (so you need 1 more minimum; having access to 6 Saws is required for tactical flexibility. You can do 3-3, or 2-2-2, or even 4-1-1.) 1 x Filler Troop. Bring Clamavus, Primus, Iconward in this detachment, and make them either Bladed Cog or 4AE (4AE for best odds of natural charging, Bladed Cog for buff spread and more tankiness, and 1 unit gets a big power boost in combat vs Imperium). This det is a specialist detachment.  

2nd Batt - 4-5x Neophytes with 2 mining lasers/seismics each. Seismics is currently a bad weapon, so the preferred is Mining Lasers. Bring a Jackal and a Primus/Iconward(your choice, defensive or offensive), Patriarch, and make them Bladed Cog (if your first Batt is Bladed Cog, you can bring some other character; maybe a Magus). 


3rd Batt - Bring 3x10 Brood Brothers or more; they're just around to take T1 and die for you. You can choose to bring either an Aberrant  unit or 1-3x3 Ridgerunners, 1x5 Jackals with Demo Charges, 1-2x8++ Jackals with Quads. Bring Abominant (if you brought Aberrants, since you can make this detachment a specialist det for the Abbys), Jackal (if you brought the Ridgerunners), Primus (if you brought more than 1 unit of Ridgerunners in Hivecult) Patty, Magus(if the 2nd Batt didnt have a Magus, or if you feel you need more spell-casting). Finally, bring a Nexos.  This detachment is mixed; the Patty is whatever the first Batt's cult is. The Magus is Bladed Cog or 4AE, your choice (the distinction is 4AE if you need the cp WLT, otherwise go Bladed Cog). If you brought Aberrants, then they should be following the first Detachment (Bladed Cog or 4AE; there is a fringe case for Twisted Helix, but I dont recommend TH without full TH benefits.) Same with Abominant. If you brought Ridgerunners, they should be Hive Cult, as is the Jackal and Primus following them (in which case again you will want to consider the Magus as 4AE for the extra cp). If you brought Jackals with Ridgerunners, the 2 Jackals on the ground with big units can be Hive Cult (doesnt matter too much, they're just there to soak and survive), the small unit with demo charges should be Rusted Claw. 

In terms of CP expenditure, you are looking at 1-2 specialist det (First Batt is always specialist, the 3rd one only if you want Abberants), 1cp for Broodcoven (If Batt 1 4AE, Primus can take the 4AE WLT for extra cp; if it is a Bladed Cog Primus, it can take Alien Majesty;  if there is a Hive Cult Primus, that one takes the HiveCult WLT to reroll 1s to hit) (Patty in 2nd Batt always takes Bladed Cog WLT for Reroll Wounds on 1 big target in a bubble around him, to give your Neophytes really good shooting) (If the Primus is Hive Cult WLT, then this Magus takes 4AE; otherwise, doesnt matter what the Magus takes). You'll spend 1cp for the Specialist Detachment Field Commander to give the Acolytes reroll to charge. You may spend to give your Hive Cult or 4AE or BC Primus (again, your choice, not mandatory) 2 targets to reroll wounds of 1. You should also consider spending 1cp for Magus' special strategem to cast +1 spell and boost his casting based on nearby same cult casters, that's our best addition from FGG. Then, you'll be spending 1cp to take 3 tokens back into DS, and likely spending 1cp more to take 1 more token back into DS. 

GSC is not a beginner friendly army, you'll need to learn a lot of things to do remotely well with this army. We've all gone through that stage, so if you need to understand more, please ask, but before you do ask, I would recommend you to at least read the Codex and For the Greater Good books GSC portion first. The Specialist Detachments are straightforward enough anyone can explain them.