Competetive GSC?

[niiai]

Hi. What have traditionally been competetive GSC, and why did it go away? And what are current competetive GSC?

[wound]

It used to be genestealers back in the index era, nowadays it has migrated to acolytes spam and rigded runners since psy awakening.

Genestealers died cause when we got codex they arent affect by cult creeds wich makes them worse compared to what can be affected.

Magus patriarch and primus are the only units to be viable though all 8th edtion competively speaking.

[No One]

Purestrains (except for that brief period of 10 ppm) were also outclassed by aberrants when we actually had a competitive build (i.e. primus strat) anyway.

Our comp options are acolytes since aberrants got nerfed by 60 pts in CA. Also ridgerunners, and sort of neophyte/mining laser spam. Outside of ridgerunners (which relies on other supporting elements and is a new thing so really difficult to say how good it is), infantry builds suffer because of general power creep, but also because of marines in particular. Lots of anti-infantry, solid melee with angels of death, anti-DS with auspex. And then you add in Fly with some of the most common builds at times (repulsor/impulsor, flier spam, Eldar, Tau) and it's an uphill battle.

[infornography]

Purestrains are as dead as can be. They are totally outclassed by Acolytes since the codex drop.

Acolytes have been our go to since then, with other units showing up periodically to supplement them.

I do think that unless you field a LOT of ridgerunners, or combine with MCs in the Tyranids codex,they are not worth it for just one or two. GSC by itself is great at just fielding tons of infantry and denying heavy weapons good high value targets. If you start throwing in just a couple vehicles, they will give those guns a good target so your enemy can destroy them easily without really losing anything. If you field enough of them they can overwhelm your opponents' big gun capabilities and be worth fielding but in small numbers, they don't accomplish much other than make your opponent feel better about their lascannons.

Jackals can still be decent if you build a strategy around them, but they aren't as good as they started out after a couple nerfs hit them with splash damage. The Jackal Alphus though is still extremely good.

[LordPathos]

Any thoughts on if Metamorphs are gonna make any sort of headway?

[infornography]

Metamorphs are pretty good right now, but often are not good enough to forego another unit of acolytes for since acolytes fill a very similar battlefield role and are troops.

Metamorphs can be pretty good at clearing screens though with their quantity of attacks and lack of rock saws ;-)

[niiai]

I have a metamorph squad with hand flamers, banner, the exstra attack +1 to hit weapon and a bonesword. 113 points.

5 attacks each hitting on 2's, re rolling 1. So they all hit.

They are S4 to wound. More if you magus them up or do twisted helix.

The bonesword means you have better attacks vs power armour. Worth it for 3 points.

The hand flamers I do not think is worth it. But I play this game to have funn. The few times I have used them I have delivered them with A perfect ambush stratagem. If I roll good I can charge one unit and flame another. I could probably do lying in wait with them as well if there where good targets. But acolyte hybrids are better for that and you want more then 10 handflamers.

[kazetanade]

10 hand flamers is your min sized, because 8 is what you need to kill a 10 man Guard unit without cover or buffs. Don't take flamers on Metamorphs.

Metamorphs saw brief play on codex drop as chaff clearer, which they do OK for other than the fact you need a tonne of buffs or a 3cp strat to deliver them, which is expensive to kill guardsmen. They don't kill anything else but guardsmen. They're bad for a marine meta.

Purestrains still hit harder and better than Acolytes with rending claws, by a fair margin. It's just that Acolytes have better durability due to being cheaper per model, can afford to lose more models, and comes close to the same output for points.if you can choose 40 Acolytes over 20 GS, you do that. if you need a single unit to go in, it's Abby's or PGS no question.

Competitively were looking at 200 neophytes, or 8 Ridgerunners with Kids. Ridgerunners aren't competitive in of themselves, they just have a beautiful statblock that is ubertanky with low enemy for their points.basically, a very good distraction carnifex.

Pure GSC will make a comeback once Marines fade out, hopefully. Tau is in a strong place and that's a super hard matchup.

[niiai]

What is the kids part of 8 ridgerunners with kids?

[kazetanade]

Apr 22, 2020 20:52:21 GMT niiai said:

What is the kids part of 8 ridgerunners with kids?

Nids.

I'm using a nonstandard texting keyboard app so I can also write in Chinese, it's English autocorrect doesn't remember words so it keeps autocorrecting words without me knowing...

[kazetanade]

I recently read the new Genestealer Cult Start Competing from goonhammer; it mentioned the Rusted Claw Atalan Jackals as being a thing in a build (2 huge units of it), since they're durable and output a lot of damage due to our reroll wound strategem. Now I'm a little sceptical, since the Quad's weapons are all Heavy weapons and hence do not benefit from this strategem; it's purely your autopistols and shotguns. Assuming a max unit, you're shooting 24 shots of 4+, S4, ap0; that barely puts a dent into Space Marines and Drones in particular, although it probably hurts T3 stuff more (12 hits, with 10 wounds? Standard Tau save means 1 more guy die for 1cp, not loving it). But hey these guys are pros and analysing the top players, so maybe there's something there I'm missing.

On a separate note, it also mentioned Metamorphs, which on closer inspection and their point drop(?) could be good in the Space Marine meta. Cult's main issue with Space Marines is tonnes of damage in shooting, you get into combat with them, and they beat your face in in combat anyway. It's part of why with Aberrants we could make good trades - you kill something, get a wrap on something else while killing another thing, then force him to deal with you in combat, where we can hit when we die and force them to trade poorly unless it's Cents or something brokenly stupid.

With Metamorphs getting a point reduction, and having access to Whips and Rending Claws, we might be able to do a cheap version of the Abby wrap, but without the massive CP expenditures required. They also got a +1A strategem and MfB is always available, pushing them to 5A rending per model. that inadvertently makes them pretty good for a Marine meta, allowing 1 or 2 to trade for a Primaris model on average (and 1 trading for 1 Space Marine for certain). I'm not sure about viability; In terms of Raw Attacks, they'll get the same number of Rending Attacks as a stock Acolyte squad for cheaper, but 20 man is much easier to chain to buffs and secure wraps, the icon also has more value for 20 guys.

It's just that something's stuck at the back of my head - 20 man units have proved themselves over time more and more unwieldy, due to space constraints, the difficulties of trading them into less focused high powered units, pairing with the Bladed Cog shooting since both want to deepstrike. As an army, we're supposedly moving into a number of MSU instead; 10 man units with 2 Saws each or something akin to an SM layout, rather than maxing out saws. If unit sizes are shrinking all across the deepstrike charger builds, wouldnt that make Metamorphs really compact value machines that can trade damage as well as a 20 man Acolyte unit? Then being able to strike when killed lets them trade that value yet again.

[niiai]

I personally like the no AP full metamorph whip who hits on 2's, rerolling 1's with en exstra attack because of the weapon. While you might miss the AP, the blender effect is very good. Somebody can do some mathhammer on it. (I also have the one Bonesword on the leader.) Might be better in twisted helix for S5. (Although there are more ways to gain S.)

[hivefleetkerrigan]

May 17, 2020 22:22:26 GMT niiai said:

I personally like the no AP full metamorph whip who hits on 2's, rerolling 1's with en exstra attack because of the weapon. While you might miss the AP, the blender effect is very good. Somebody can do some mathhammer on it. (I also have the one Bonesword on the leader.) Might be better in twisted helix for S5. (Although there are more ways to gain S.)

Do you mean the talon? The metamorph talon is +1 hit +1 to hit. The whip is fight even if you have died.

[No One]

kazetanade said:

On a separate note, it also mentioned Metamorphs, which on closer inspection and their point drop(?) could be good in the Space Marine meta. Cult's main issue with Space Marines is tonnes of damage in shooting, you get into combat with them, and they beat your face in in combat anyway. It's part of why with Aberrants we could make good trades - you kill something, get a wrap on something else while killing another thing, then force him to deal with you in combat, where we can hit when we die and force them to trade poorly unless it's Cents or something brokenly stupid.

With Metamorphs getting a point reduction, and having access to Whips and Rending Claws, we might be able to do a cheap version of the Abby wrap, but without the massive CP expenditures required. They also got a +1A strategem and MfB is always available, pushing them to 5A rending per model. that inadvertently makes them pretty good for a Marine meta, allowing 1 or 2 to trade for a Primaris model on average (and 1 trading for 1 Space Marine for certain). I'm not sure about viability; In terms of Raw Attacks, they'll get the same number of Rending Attacks as a stock Acolyte squad for cheaper, but 20 man is much easier to chain to buffs and secure wraps, the icon also has more value for 20 guys.

It's just that something's stuck at the back of my head - 20 man units have proved themselves over time more and more unwieldy, due to space constraints, the difficulties of trading them into less focused high powered units, pairing with the Bladed Cog shooting since both want to deepstrike. As an army, we're supposedly moving into a number of MSU instead; 10 man units with 2 Saws each or something akin to an SM layout, rather than maxing out saws. If unit sizes are shrinking all across the deepstrike charger builds, wouldnt that make Metamorphs really compact value machines that can trade damage as well as a 20 man Acolyte unit? Then being able to strike when killed lets them trade that value yet again.

The problem is a lack of durability, and delivery. A min 5 man intercessor squad with rr 1s kills 5-6 metas (edit: ~4 without angels). With overwatch, that's most of the squad dead. They also have no reliable delivery: not worth PA, 8" with rerolls (custom) or FAE isn't bad, but when you have difficulties with multiple units chaining to the same set of buffs, and then these are small units?

[kazetanade]

No One

Yea I mean they're as durable as Acolytes, who are also currently run in smaller numbers, packing twice the output in the same unit size, and only costing a little bit more. I wouldnt say they lack durability relative to the rest of this codex.

The small unit size is a bit more of an issue; Overwatch with rr1s kills maybe 2 metas? (I expect Shooting Phase will kill whatever GSC has out on the open board anyway, its not like I have ever had a unit (other than Neophytes) survive a turn of open shooting). Maybe the buff issue can be solved with our new aura sizes if need be? (dont remember if Iconward got one, although the only 2 auras that matter to a 10 man unit are Primus with Alien Majesty and +S Iconward really).

The delivery I agree is an issue, one which I do not really know how to deal with. 7" no reroll is just OK at like 65% chance to make it in, so I guess bringing 2 or 3 units would make that work, hopefully. You could theoretically design a 3 turn drop army with Metamorphs going in and Acolytes staying on the board til T3.

Chaff Killer Metamorphs deliver 60A of S5; doing the maths, that's 2+ rr1s for 58H, wounding on 3+ for 39W, with 13 failed saves on marines. Or, 50A of S4; doing 43H, 21W, 7 failed saves.
Rending Claws Metamorphs deliver 50A of S5; that's 3+ rr1s for 38H, 25W, 12 failed minimum average (6s auto kill not counted). Or, 40A of S4; doing 26H, 13W, 7 failed minimum average (6s auto kill not counted).

Basically meaning that they both theoretically do about the same damage, but Rending Claws being much more consistent and likely to wipe a unit of 5 Primaris or 10 normies even without buffs. Chaff killers will completely outdamage when anything weaker than Marines though from the looks of it, so it might be a much better general unit than we give it credit for. Of course, again the main difference is that with the whip, I always strike in combat while the Talons can get beaten up in combat before getting to swing.