Melee Carnifexes or Screamer Killers?

[thepounder]

I’ve bought my first Carnifex!

I intend on getting 2 more and OOE to act as a shock attack unit. 

With this in mind I was wondering am I better fielding them as Screamer Killers or making my own variants?

I’m not interested in lots of guns (or any) as I feel I have plenty in my list as a whole.

So what’s the consensus? Are Melee Carnifexes viable?

Sorry if this is a well trodden path but I couldn’t find anything related on the search.

[infornography]

Building your own is usually better. Screamer killers are not bad, but you can make a custom layout that is better.

If you are wanting melee I recommend bone mace, tusks, dual scytals, -1 to be hit.

if you are wanting range I recommend bone mace, enhanced senses, -1 to be hit, and any two guns because they are all good. My preference is two pair of devs, but one pair of devs or spitters and a HVC is also very good.

[hivefleetkerrigan]

Agreed, but with a caveat: if you need to save points, you can drop the tusks.

[murderfiesta]

If you're going shooty, statistically Deathspitters are generally inferior against most targets relative to Devourers, with the primary exception being targets that have a 2+ save. Since Devourers have twice as many shots as Deathspitters, you should only take the Deathspitters in a situation where some attribute of the Deathspitter gives you 100% more kill probability per shot, and the only place that really happens is against T5 or less and 2+ armor save, or maybe T6 or T7 and 2+ or 3+ armor save (haven't checked the numbers on this).

Also avoid Stranglethorn cannons. Unless you roll a 6 for shots they're strictly outclassed by Deathspitters, and by extension Devourers.  The obvious exception is against units with 10+ models, but at that point I feel like I'd still want 24 shots at 3+ to hit compared to d6 shots at 2+ to hit.

Heavy Venom Cannons are also a bit questionable, but work in a pinch if you can get a bunch of them. Expected damage output per round against a T5-T8 target with a 3+/5++ using Enhanced Senses is 1.8 damage. That's pitiful for a 100+ point model.

Basically, double Devourer shootyfexes are probably where you're going to see the most consistent value for shootyfexes unless you're running a decent mass of them (I'm not sure where this line is, it might be 5+) at which point Heavy Venom Cannons may actually be able to threaten heavy enemy vehicles.

Melee carnifexes unfortunately don't fare much better against non-elite targets unless you have OOE and Crushing Claws. With scything talons, 5 or 6 attacks at S6 and 3 damage is pretty good for pointing at Primaris (especially Aggressors), but is terrible against any but the lightest of vehicles. With Crushing Claws, you're hitting on a 4+ in the first round of combat if you charged, and 5+ thereafter unless you also have OOE. It is super easy to gimp a Carnifex by charging it with anything that's not elite infantry. If looking at the situation in isolation, the only real defense you have is being Kraken (fall back and charge) and hoping you don't get wrapped, otherwise you need to consider viable escorts and screens. The problem with this plan is, as soon as the Carnifex gets tagged it's not doing anything useful for the next two player turns (yours and theirs) unless you can kill the enemy on the turn they charged (unlikely) since the Carnifex will still be stuck in melee. Thankfully melee carnifexes can be dirt cheap at 82 points with no upgrades, so you might find value in quantity and threat saturation.

[afewveiws]

To answer the main question, the only time you should bring screamers over base carnifexen is if you already have 9. Screamers' little plasma guns are mediocre and the morale aura is basically useless while costing something in the neighborhood of 15-20 more points then a base fex with the same compareable upgrades (gun is even worst, dont bring it either so even cheaper)

Heavy venem cannons are 3 damge so against a 3+/5++ target, it is impossible to only do 1.8 damage. Just a sign that you missed a step in your math and suggest you redo it. You assessment isnt to far off though, should definately bring them in multiples.

Dev vs D.spit is a close comparison with devs doing marginally better in most catagories, the trade off is the range of the d.spits which is the main advantage they have over devs. Discounting the fact that you can do slightly less damage from just out of charge range and only presenting the "math says devs are better" argument can be miss-leading, even though it is still technically correct. Only posting this to be thorough with the options presented.

Str 6 on the carni has been a huge disappointment for me since the release of 8th. I started at the beginning of 5th when they where one of the best can openers in the game at str10 and bonuses against vehicles... they wher 160 pts base though so i guess its nice to field 2x the amount of them...
As a melee kitted monster keep them cheap, i do like tusks but find the tail to be underwhelming most of the time, i skip it. 2x talons is cheap and gives you an extra atk and spore cysts are mandatory unless you plan to run a stampede of them and then maybe you would want to save the 90pts... but i would still suggest them.
OOE... bring him, if you have to decide between 2 meleefexes or ooe, bring ooe every time. If yoy are willing to dedicate 500pts to melee carnis then 3 plus ooe is a big threat that they will need to answer and will most likely be able too so make sure you have the rest of your list be able to operate without them.

As mentioned above, super heavy vehicles arent the best targets for them in 8th, tough elite units, charecters, transports, etc... though a herd of 3 can do alot of damage to a tough target and clear a big chunk of chaff.

If you want them to do well against harder targets then cc is a good upgrade and at this point just give it a hvc since then it can soften it up on the way in. I use to run 6 of these with ooe and swarmy when knights where the meta kings and had a good record against them. Did terrible against orks though so keep that in mind, there is a build for just about any target you want but there isnt a build that can target everything.

So, what do you want them to be able to kill?

P.s. mandatory "magnetize them" comment

[No One]

@afewviews said:

Heavy venem cannons are 3 damge so against a 3+/5++ target, it is impossible to only do 1.8 damage.

...Welcome to the world of averages? I mean, yes it'd be more accurate to do a full statistical breakdown of what damage level you get, but that's both more effort (especially with random shots) and not something everyone knows how to do.

[thepounder]

Thanks very much everyone! Your answers have been a great help.

I’m definitely going to get OOE, will probably be the first one I build (because fun!)

As for load out, I’m thinking 2 Carnifexes in addition, to OOE with tusks, claws, adrenal glands, spore cysts and mace tale.

I think the 3 of them will fill the role I have planned for them.

Thanks again.

[infornography]

afewviews pretty much covered why you would want to field guns other than devs. Just cosigning that.
Range and target priority is what it comes down to. If I was always in range and always hunting things at T6 or lower with bad armor saves or good invuln, of course I would always take devs, but that is an oversimplification of the battlefield. You may want a few Fexes to stay back and lob death, in which case range is more important than volume of fire. You may want a couple fexes that focus on tank hunting where strength and AP is more important than volume of fire.

But as said, for a generalist role, I prefer double devs.

[murderfiesta]

I understand that the situation isn't always optimal and that the tradeoffs have to be considered. In most cases, going Deathspitters over Devourers is a serious degradation in performance though. Past that, we frequently also have another available option that is point-for-point more efficient than Deathspitter Carnifexes, where the Carnifex should only be prioritized if there's a requirement for a monstrous shooting platform that won't degrade and can get -1 to-hit protection without being babysat by a Malanthrope.

The only places where Deathspitters gain efficiency over Devourers is T6/2+ (33% more damage per point), T7/2+ (50% more damage per point), and T7/3+ (25% more damage per point). They're equivalent to Devourers for T3, T4, T5, and T8 2+, T6 3+, and T7 4+. As soon as you move to T3, T4, T5, or T8 3+ you start causing 25% less damage per point (33%, 37.5%, and 40% less damage per point for 4+, 5+ and 6+ respectively), so you need to have a very good idea of what kind of efficiency penalty you're willing to accept for the Carnifex to have 6" extra range.

For Stranglethorn Cannons, just... don't. They're absolutely one of the worst weapons in our arsenal, especially if your plan is to stay at max range.

Heavy Venom Cannons are actually point-for-point a reasonable (if not optimal) choice against Knights assuming bare-bones loadout (Venom Cannon, Devourer, Enhances Senses, nothing else). At 36" the Carnifex is outclassed by stationary Acid Tyrannofex (our best against Knights assuming no other buffs and not degraded), stationary Rupture Cannon, stationary Hive Guard, and 2x Devourer Carnifex at 18". A Carnifex with a Venom Cannon and Devourers at 18" is actually point-for-point better against Knights than all of the above except the stationary Acid Spray assuming they're not Kronos and we're not considering stratagems or psychic powers.

For reference, I considered the following: Bare-bones Tyrannofex (stationary and moved) w/ Acid, Rupture Cannon, and Fleshborer Hive; Hive Guard; Exocrine (stationary); Bare-bones Carnifex with 2x Devourers, 2x Deathspitters, Heavy Venom Cannon, and Stranglethorn Cannon; and a 20+ model unit of devourer Termagants. I did not factor in the Tyrannofex's secondary weapon, which with 4 shots at S5 at BS4+ isn't likely to make a huge impact in the analysis.

Quick reference (stratagems/psychic powers not included):
GEQ: use Devourer Termagants or Devourer Carnifex in that order.
MEQ: use Devourer Termagants, Devourer Carnifex, or Exocrine in that order. Deathspitter Carnifex is questionable here but will work in a pinch.
Primaris Equivalent: use Exocrines or (if you're lucky) stationary Acid Spray. Stationary Acid Spray likely hindered by random damage though. Otherwise use Devourer Termagants or Devourer Carnifex. In a pinch use Hive Guard, moved Acid Spray, stationary Fleshborer Hive, or Deathspitter Carnifex.
Centurions: Use Exocrines. Stationary Acid Spray and Rupture Cannon are potentially viable, but likely hindered by random damage. Absent the previous, use Hive Guard, moved Acid Spray, moved Rupture Cannon, Carnifex with 2x Deathspitter, 2x Devourer, or Heavy Venom Cannon + Deathspitter or Devourer.
Knight Equivalent: Use stationary Acid Spray, Carnifex with Heavy Venom Cannon + 2x Devourers, stationary Rupture Cannon, stationary Exocrine, or Hive Guard. In a pinch use Carnifex w/ 2x Devourers or Carnifex w/ Venom Cannon from max range.

Outside of the above recommendations, like I said above prioritize the Carnifexes more highly if you need a monster that won't degrade and can get -1 to-hit without needing a Malathrope to babysit.

[gigasnail]

It's a lot easier to deploy 24.1" away than it is to deploy 30.1" away.

We've gone over this several times as things developed. There is no clear answer.

[murderfiesta]

I think there are clear answers, but it's a matter of framing the requirements of your list. If you need to turn 1 clear an enemy screen consisting of GEQ models that is between 25.1" and 31" away and are willing to accept a decrease in shooting efficiency in later turns as you close on the enemy battle line, then yes Deathspitters are basically your only choice. I also re-ran the Hive Guard numbers accounting for the fact that 1/3rd of the time they're going to require 2 shots to kill a Primaris marine, and in those situations the Deathspitters are the same against 3+ saves and better against 4+/5+/6+ compared to Hive Guard. So if you've got MEQ or PEQ at 25.1" - 31" and need to clear it turn 1, Deathspitters are still the way to go.

Here's something interesting though: Devourers are still better against GEQ even if you advance, and are equivalent against MEQ (just ever so slightly worse if you buy Adrenal Glands)! So if you're running your Carnifexes in Kraken w/ Adrenal Glands you can actually largely mitigate the range advantage of the Deathspitters, though of course you're opening yourself up to the perils of additional variance.

But yes, I will accept the point that there is value in the range difference. I will however maintain that, while it isn't necessarily trivial to map out which option is better for a list, that it is possible to do so if the requirements of the list can be adequately framed.

[gigasnail]

There are clear answers in specific scenarios.

Outside of them, less so.

[afewveiws]

You are also only looking at it from the "strap it with guns" perspective.

The best carni loadour for killing knights "point for point" is hvc and cc.
The best chaff clearing load out is 2xdevs
But if you get charged then those dev fexes arent going to do anything which is a problem because almost anything in the game can charge something within 18" where as only relavant elite melee units are going to be able to charge 24"

Tactical dicision makeing and list building is more then point by point damage analysis.

[kazetanade]

The comparison helps making informed decision for roles and function.

Any case, I am partial to Deathspitter because of flexibility, being able to become an autocannon with 6 shots when required. The added range is good too but it's primarily the ap that I like it for, as you don't want to try and shoot your way through a 2+ sv in cover.

Melee Carnifexen are decent - 270 + 200 is a good package for a Spearhead, requires a fair bit of dedication to do something about. If you don't have too much ruins for people to get charging immunity, it's a viable build. Sadly SKs are a little... Poor.

[dusundavor]

i would consider using the screamer killers as is, less to forget and 70/30 shooting vs combat.