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Post by hammerhand on Mar 9, 2020 9:45:53 GMT
zimko I watched your game against the triple lord of skulls - a delight to watch and nicely played from your side. What I noticed is that in our local tournaments (as small as they are ~16 players) there is not even 1 table with enough terrain to hide more than a humble swarmlord. I really detest the new mechanicumesque buildings. thousands of windows, 5" high floors that are easily blocked so no genestealer can attack in combat and so on. Good luck trying to get Oblits or Havocs out of their house In 3 games I could only hide my hive guard against imperial guard - bad luck this opponent had 3 Basilisks. So I think to play a list like yours successfully in my tournaments is extremely hard if not impossible. My flyrant was shot to pieces by a relic battlecannon (2 sixes) as first shot in the first turn! So I have to adapt. Hive guard with impaler does not do it for me - maybe sending the in with a drop pod + shock cannons. Flyrants are out. Swarmi + Genestealer supported by cult units is now my way. I will see
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Post by hiveoverall on Mar 9, 2020 10:02:07 GMT
zimko I watched your game against the triple lord of skulls - a delight to watch and nicely played from your side. What I noticed is that in our local tournaments (as small as they are ~16 players) there is not even 1 table with enough terrain to hide more than a humble swarmlord. I really detest the new mechanicumesque buildings. thousands of windows, 5" high floors that are easily blocked so no genestealer can attack in combat and so on. Good luck trying to get Oblits or Havocs out of their house In 3 games I could only hide my hive guard against imperial guard - bad luck this opponent had 3 Basilisks. So I think to play a list like yours successfully in my tournaments is extremely hard if not impossible. My flyrant was shot to pieces by a relic battlecannon (2 sixes) as first shot in the first turn! So I have to adapt. Hive guard with impaler does not do it for me - maybe sending the in with a drop pod + shock cannons. Flyrants are out. Swarmi + Genestealer supported by cult units is now my way. I will see The sad truth is that local groups of 10-20 players have to all chip in to buy/build the right terrain, and lend the terrain to TOs so they can provide adequately dense tables. But that is much easier said than done, obviously |
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Post by beetlejuice on Mar 9, 2020 11:15:13 GMT
As a nids player, I think it is worth investing in proper terrain before you expand past 1-2k points of models. Especially before committing to acolytes. It’s a lot more fun to have winnable/even games than being able to field numerous different lists.
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Post by No One on Mar 9, 2020 11:25:40 GMT
Especially before committing to acolytes. Get enough acolytes and you can't fit them in terrain anyway and want to hostage play/outright murder to stay alive (or just die slow enough to outscore). I'd say I've been stuffed over by ruins/forests/annoying terrain making charges/hostages awkward to impossible more than terrain has helped me, at least on that side of the army. Now, stuff that wants to start on board? Yeah, you really need good terrain, especially for stuff like hive guard. |
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Post by zimko on Mar 9, 2020 12:26:04 GMT
I tested out Super Flyrant myself yesterday, wasn't impressed when I took 8dmg going in on overwatch but st least he lived, OOE would have died. Pulling out 12D in combat is a very good feeling. Damage wise it's really nearly there. 5A with exploding on 6s doesn't feel bad at all, with S8 and 4D each it's pretty sizeable and potentially a better candidate for fight twice than anything else in this codex, assuming no 4++ to deal with . Definitely feelsbetter than standard flyrant output . He's also a decent candidate for fighting as he dies. Though it's risky at 4+ to hit, any hits that get thru are going to do good damage assuming no invulnerable save. I've used it on a Knight and did 12 damage. The Super Flyrant is an element to our normal lists that we have never really had... a Flyrant that does decent melee damage. Most of the time a Flyrant is either the dakka variant or the hybrid variant that can do OK in melee but isn't going to take down anything big on it's own. Murderous Size and S8 is what really enables this kind of damage output. So for threat saturation it's great to have him in there. (Side note: And since you can also make him a Warlord now without giving up Kingslayer, it's possible to give him 6 attacks on the charge.) That being said, I have a GT this weekend that is ITC. I don't know what the terrain will be like and I suspect it could be bad. Also, I'm seeing a lot more of the 3 damage Manticores and Tank Commander hitting the table. So with that in mind, I'm taking out the Tyrannocyte and 3 Genestealers to add a unit of Tyrant Guard. I hope they are enough to protect the Swarmlord and Super Flyrant on turn 1. They may also decide to shoot the Dakka Flyrant or Exocrine instead which sucks but if you're going 2nd in this meta you're bound to lose something. I'd rather it not be Swarmlord or the Super Flyrant. If I go first, the Tyrant Guard make for decent Engineers or for getting King of the Hill points. They can also protect Swarmlord turn 1 since he won't be using Hive Commander on himself turn 1, and with adrenal glands, the Tyrant Guard can keep up with him easily. |
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Post by N.I.B. on Mar 9, 2020 13:15:47 GMT
Those L-ruins in the Chaos match, what are their measurements approximately? Height, width? I'm considering making some for our local club.
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Post by zimko on Mar 9, 2020 14:31:35 GMT
Those L-ruins in the Chaos match, what are their measurements approximately? Height, width? I'm considering making some for our local club. They are just tall enough to completely cover a Flyrant, but some super heavies are still slightly taller than them (Magnus Wings). I'd get an Imperial Knight and make them tall enough to block those. For the width, there's a short side and a long side. The Long side is about ~9 inches long and the short side is about ~6 inches (on the inside). The walls themselves are just under an inch thick so that fighting can happen through them if models are hugging the wall. Coastal Wargaming created the terrain in the video and are selling sets to local hobby shops. The sets they create all match an FLG mat so they look really good together. Each terrain set includes 2 pieces of area terrain (counts as forest), 2 L walls (ruins), 2 smaller ruins (also L shaped but includes a second level with windows and not as big as the big Ls), and 2 hills/impassable rock formation. It's all crafted with foam. |
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Post by beetlejuice on Mar 9, 2020 14:33:56 GMT
Get enough acolytes and you can't fit them in terrain anyway and want to hostage play/outright murder to stay alive (or just die slow enough to outscore). I'd say I've been stuffed over by ruins/forests/annoying terrain making charges/hostages awkward to impossible more than terrain has helped me, at least on that side of the army. That’s a good point, I was mostly thinking how to get the most value for your $$$ when starting the hobby (assuming money is an issue, if not well the world is your oyster. Ehh biomass I mean). Getting 60+ acolytes is crazy expensive considering it’s a horde option. But I guess once you’ve got 1-2 full units you can start selling your terrain to fund your acolyte purchases  |
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Post by kazetanade on Mar 10, 2020 4:55:59 GMT
zimko I am a proponent of the Drop Flyrant since he's Behemoth. The only real question is 3d6(or 4d6) 9" rr instead of 8" rr, but if you can get the 3d6 8" rr you're basically golden. Otherwise you risk too much with the SL out in the table middle by himself. For SL to keep up with a Flyrant means the TG aren't keeping up with SL, and you absolutely must reach the central Los blocker or die. It's very hard to do so if you start behind ruins for the T1 Los blocker. Of course if we take the arqchnyte gland then Flyrant isnt getting SoT, which makes things a bit of a question mark, but safe delivery is as important as damage output, and it's trade off with the WLT being usable. The manticores though. Its 2d6 rr1 of dice, with 3+ rr1 to hit, then 3+ or 2+ to wound, 4+ sv on either. Assuming an average of 8 shots, 6 hits, 5W on TG or 4W on SL. 2W go through on SL for 6d, 5 of which can be pawed off to TG. If it goes on the TG, they die instantly. In other words, if you keep SupFly in the sky, you generally have nothing to fear. If he has both the Manti and the Basi, then you definitely need the TG, and possibly a venom or malan to boot. Another consideration is being you most likely want the ap-2 ignore on HG if he's playing manticores and not Basilisk. Honestly, I'm way more scared of that buffed Bassilisk than a Manticore. But if he has both then meh, HG are dying anyway. Luckily he can't take 3 of them like Tau. I shudder to think of a 3dam Basi, a 3dam Manti, and a 4d6 rr shots rr hits rr wounds wyvern all at once. Edit: on second thought, considering the swing of a D6 rerollable can be stupid, 10 shots could be expected in general so you'd be looking at an almost dead SL. If you keep the TG on the ground you actually can maintain your original strategy, spending 1cp on move again for SL himself and taking out the Basi/Manti with superFlyrant. It'll come down to can you weather the damage from the Basi/Manti and the TC as well, ie do you have enough terrain cover to hide the Flyrant in (I have never been able to hide one before).
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Post by zimko on Mar 10, 2020 12:52:03 GMT
Manticores are 4+ to hit unless I'm missing something. They're a very swingy unit. Sometimes they completely whif, and other times they pick up a Hive Tyrant. The TG are just there in case they swing heavy. If they absorb a manticore's entire shooting then they've done their job (and with a 4+ save they may even survive). TG with Adrenal Glands have a 8+d6 movement. Swarmlord has a 9+d6 movement. So they can easily keep up with him. I may lose a couple inches making sure the Flyrant ends it's move within 6" of the Swarmlord but that's not too bad if I can get Onslaught to go off so I can advance in the shooting phase.
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Post by kazetanade on Mar 10, 2020 13:31:24 GMT
The new Guard custom regiments pack Cadian and Catachans together, so you can get a Manticore that rerolls 1 of its 2d6 shots, that also rerolls 1s for not moving. Add to the mix a new strategem that gives Manticores and Wyverns a +1 to hit, gives you consistent shooter with consistent high number of shots. Finally, add in the new Tank Ace for 3damage always, a Manticore can really chew through a lot of stuff relatively unsupported. If you can roll 4+ at least average then you'll at least survive a turn, but if you roll even a bit below average, it will pick up a Flyrant/SL straight. With that in mind, I'd say a TG squad is definitely needed, and if you can, spare an adaptation for them too, but it's not mandatory. At least Manticores can't shoot twice, and a Basilisk shooting twice is basically a slightly better Manticore.
Ref SL - How is he not at risk when you do this? If mine is stranded mid table after launching a Flyrant, he'd be mincemeat. Shoot the SL to death, smash the Flyrant in combat kinda deal.
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Post by zimko on Mar 10, 2020 13:49:46 GMT
The kind of list that has Manticores doesn't usually have a melee element that can smash a Tyrant. Or at least not one that is guaranteed to smash the Tyrant. They MUST kill the Flyrant or it will devestate more on turn 2 so they usually spend whatever shooting it takes to kill him. Thus I always give him Catalyst to eat as much shooting as possible. The Genestealers are always poised and ready to a turn 2 charge, even without the Swarmlord's help. So Swarmlord falls a little low on the priority list at this point.
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Post by kazetanade on Mar 10, 2020 14:02:34 GMT
The kind of list that has Manticores doesn't usually have a melee element that can smash a Tyrant. Or at least not one that is guaranteed to smash the Tyrant. They MUST kill the Flyrant or it will devestate more on turn 2 so they usually spend whatever shooting it takes to kill him. Thus I always give him Catalyst to eat as much shooting as possible. The Genestealers are always poised and ready to a turn 2 charge, even without the Swarmlord's help. So Swarmlord falls a little low on the priority list at this point. Do the IG not have that big unit of Bullgryns to take centre field? |
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Post by zimko on Mar 10, 2020 14:19:20 GMT
Depends on the list. But yeah now that I think of it there is usually some kind of melee element. I either charge it directly, shoot it or avoid it turn 1.
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Post by mattblowers on Mar 13, 2020 14:49:13 GMT
Man you guys are hard to please. Yeah sorry my list is so generic on paper but there's a lot of room for catering to my opponents' list and mission with the relic choices and adaptations pregame. I went 2nd in most of these games. Genestealers are basically a distraction. My opponents were so focused on killing them turn 1 that they didn't see the Strength 8, AP 4, 4 damage beast with fly hiding behind them that can move 32" with Swarmlord's help. I also won an RTT 2 weeks prior facing off against Space Marines (one piloted by Daniel Paolini who is rank 13 in ITC). And yeah, I had to go first to win, but that's how tournaments work sometimes. I faced him again this past weekend and did not win first turn so I lost. That's just the current state of the game. As Tyranids, our choices are so limited that we need a little luck to win right now. The trick is to make sure that when you do get that little bit of luck, your list is capable of capitalizing on it. Thanks for all the pointers. At first glance I wondered how in the hell this list even functions. It looks downright pathetic on paper. Not a ton of shooting, not a ton of bodies, and genestealers seem something from an old meta. Then as I thought about it I realized how good this list is. It simply has a ton of tools that forces your opponent to make bad decisions. I'm taking it to an ironman GT tomorrow and taking it out for a spin. I dropped the behemoth broodlord to get 2 kronos biovores, bump the second stealer squad back to 20 for the extra acid maw, and exchange the deathspitters for barbed stranglers on the t-cyte. I also dropped one twin-dev for another HVC. I'll report back. Thanks for the creative take. |
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