Behemoth Genestealer Can Openers

[zandraki]

Don't know if anyone has done the mathhammer on this silliness yet.

BoB behemoth psychic power grants +1 to wound. Pair this with rending claws getting their -3 AP on 5s with the power off and toxin sacs getting their +1 dmg on 5s. With the weight of dice a large unit of genestealers can throw out it may make a big unit into a reliable can opener. 

However, it is very expensive. 

Thoughts? 

[irondreddknight]

I dint know the math, but it can definitely work. Problem being genestealers are a glass cannon. They hit hard but die quickly. A full unit with toxin sacs is lot of points you need to trade off to make it worth it.

[LordPathos]

I think there was another option to add that let you rend on 4s. No idea what it was, but i read it somewhere on here.

[zandraki]

I tend to run two bigish units, with the acceptance that they will die once swarmy launches them up the board. But a big unit with catalyst on it can absorb rather a lot of firepower and serves as a good distraction carnifex.. and usually murders whatever it touches. I am loath to make them *more* expensive, however I do believe such a unit could reliably eat a heavy tank (Russ etc) and chew a chunk of wounds off a knight.. I would have to playtest it some.

[hivefleetkerrigan]

Note: rending claws rend for AP-4. I think you should deepstrike the stealers if you're going to try to add toxin sacs to them. They're too expensive and squishy to start on the board otherwise.

Also, the 4+ rend mentioned above is from twisted helix acolytes, the new twisted helix spell, and draw first blood.

[zandraki]

DS out of a prime is something I've done a few times, but the charge is fairly unreliable. Recently I've gone for using the infestation nodes. They pop out 6 out of my deployment zone, swarmy slings them up and they have the re-rollable charge. Often does the trick but it is very much deployment zone dependent.

Importantly though, it hides both units from shooting for turn 1, course a fast army can make them disappear 

[hivefleetkerrigan]

Feb 13, 2020 16:09:30 GMT zandraki said:

DS out of a prime is something I've done a few times, but the charge is fairly unreliable. Recently I've gone for using the infestation nodes. They pop out 6 out of my deployment zone, swarmy slings them up and they have the re-rollable charge. Often does the trick but it is very much deployment zone dependent.

Importantly though, it hides both units from shooting for turn 1, course a fast army can make them disappear 

I don't think you can sling them after they come in from an infestation node: they count as coming in from reserved and therefore can't be moved again per the base FAQ. I think they'd also run into the tactical reserves restrictions so they'd have to drop T2-3.

[zandraki]

Feb 13, 2020 17:18:00 GMT hivefleetkerrigan said:

Feb 13, 2020 16:09:30 GMT zandraki said:

DS out of a prime is something I've done a few times, but the charge is fairly unreliable. Recently I've gone for using the infestation nodes. They pop out 6 out of my deployment zone, swarmy slings them up and they have the re-rollable charge. Often does the trick but it is very much deployment zone dependent.

Importantly though, it hides both units from shooting for turn 1, course a fast army can make them disappear 

I don't think you can sling them after they come in from an infestation node: they count as coming in from reserved and therefore can't be moved again per the base FAQ. I think they'd also run into the tactical reserves restrictions so they'd have to drop T2-3.

Just checked. 

Bugger. 

Options are hide them or DS them... oh, the joys. 

[kazetanade]

I tested can opener stealers last week at a small RTT. They did 7 wounds to a LoW chassis before saves at 16 man. Based on averages, I should be doing 9W base at full power, and 18W with Unending Hunger up, which would total it with HG assist damage.

What that tells me is that yes it works on paper, but without a reroll you basically leave it up to luck because you rely on really statistical average dice to make it work. Which for 80 hit dice should have been close to statistical average but key, what do you do.

For attacking T7 and below it will probably still be reliable - it actually makes your infantry kills way more reliable, and for T5 to T7 it should consistently roll 4s. But considering the cost of making this unit work, I feel its a "win more" option and isn't worth the investment. Behemoth for a specialist drop is still on the cards IMO but not for Be-stealers.

For the record, I got them into Zoanthropes with scytals going - killed 4 Zoeys, so it did 12W through a 3+ rr1 and 3+ to wound. Not sure this is what I'd consider good. 2nd hit the squad was super diffused since he had a lot of stuff overlapping, so they couldn't fight to kill off. By right I should be doing 40+ saves, which comes up statistical 4.5 dead Zoeys or something like that (I had a few dead GS just prior) . They went balls deep on a Grotesque unit in a practice unit and lost nearly half the squad (vexator = hit last) but still did 10W to Grotesques.

[bigpig]

I used them with no toxin sacs at LVO. Toxins are just expensive overkill. Bone stock with the UH power they are very effective for murdering vehicles and can take down a knight if you fight twice. 60 hits and 20 rending wounds. Add in a brute force or Caustic Blood on the counterattack and you kill a knight with one round of combat if all goes your way. I used them for taking IG tanks and caladius grav tanks as well. It is a glass cannon but very effective at what it does