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Post by No One on Jan 9, 2020 0:57:03 GMT
No One 3 Flyrants was a purported "tool" we could use vs Castellans. I doubt they can't handle some lehmann russes. If you didn't want them to kill it, you could smack with teeth instead. 3 is the handle for Tripoint. I think them surviving their first drop, even at the cost of less damage, is a worthwhile trade, unless its all FLY in which case gotta kill as hard as possible. Once on the 2nd turn on the board they really run havoc. I mean, yes and no. Yes, in hindsight could've maybe made a different play to hostage using a building/rippers. But I was also trying for a hostage play, I just messed it up (warriors were different <Hive Fleet>, and I didn't think that through). So that would've required relic AG flyrant making a 3d6 drop charge, which was feasible: but I took the 'sure' line and went for a 4d6 drop 2 charge on guardsmen to consolidate onto a tank, and the other flyrant then failed the charge. Basically, not killing wasn't the issue here. Then 3 tank commanders (1 relic BC) do ~20 wounds with Cadian and orders. Which is, I'm pretty sure, more than an unbuffed castellan (while a buffed castellan is at almost 'murder 2 flyrants' levels of firepower). So I'm really not sure how 3 flyrants was considered a tool in that match up (outside of extreme luck/no other option). In general, relying on making 3/3 flyrant charges is ambitious. And it'd usually be impossible to tri-point with 2. Flyrant with scythes is basically at that level: only 5, but exploding 6s. Always S8, -4 Dam 4 as well. You just can't hide it midfield like you could Swarmy (though of course that's vulnerable to TFC), so it all comes back to making DS charges, but in this case it's a specific one on a specific unit (and it can't take relic AG, though you could still take monstrous size normal scy tals and relic AG). |
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Post by kazetanade on Jan 9, 2020 2:58:41 GMT
You needed to land 3 smites and 3 charges with the Flyrants, with provision to tripoint, so it was a theoretical tool not a practical one sadly.
Yea for standard Flyrants you only get 4A, which doesn't get you get far - 2 dead Cents after a combat phase, and 4++ means counterpunch likely kills you or maims you bad. If you SoT, making the charge becomes difficult since no relic AG, something else has to make it in (or some other synapse shooting has to take out a Cent, which is a tall order).
Theoretically you could make the less effective play of Exo drop to kill 2 Cents, then HVC kills a 3rd, triggering Hunters Drive for relic Flyrant to score 4d6 charge, kill 2 more, leaving the unit to be a nonthreat. This irks me a lot because 1: its a lot of CP for no kill 2: it takes away Exocrene shooting from something as high value if there is 3: it leaves the 2nd Flyrant out in the cold.
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Post by bigpig on Jan 9, 2020 2:59:59 GMT
Your Supreme Command is Gorgon? IIRC nids can't do mixed battallions. Can you explain the assault daisy chain going on here? Can't be arsed to think for meself ^^ Yeah, that's the DS one, though to be fair I'm not going to take it to LVO. Regarding the Supreme Command, I am aware of nothing that prohibits us from taking a mixed fleet detachment. With that, the Supreme Command gets Gorgon for the BL and Behemoth or the Tyrants. Let me know if you see someplace where that isn't doable. Really the Poisonous Influence hasn't paid off that often One unit of Hormies rides with the Trygon. Both Flyrants and Gargoyles in deep Strike. In the games I've played I've spaced out the deep strikes into two main forces (Trygon/Hormie and Reaper Flyrant/Gargoyles) coming in on separate turns to maximize effectiveness of the strats. The foot Tyrant can plink with the HVC to trip Hunters Drive. The limited high strength shots make it likely you will kill something and less likely you increase charge range. The Trygon Prime has a 9" 3d6 rerollable with the Arachnacyte Gland and 4d6 if it is a hunters drive target for 78 or 90ish% success on charge. Hormies follow in using Hive Instinct for 3d6 on 8" charge for 90% success. The flying contingent uses the same, except it is riskier because you MUST use Hunters Drive (Deathspitters vs Devourers for fewer kills or use the foot tryant again) or else you are 2d6 on an 8" charge on the flyrant. Regarding Gargoyles, they can actually put out some hurt supporting the Flyrant. Brute force can get you a handful of mortals on the charge and if the tyrant doesn't have a key target, then they can be hit with unending hunger. What I've found is the combination of swarm and MC charge makes it easier for me to tri point a second unit and get the MC into it as well to protect it (though this isn't guaranteed). The problems with it are the obvious issues with one of those two units failing a charge causing the chain to break and the whole thing becomes a lot harder to pull off or one of the units gets left hanging out in the wind to be shot up. The second issue has been having the proper targets in the right positions. Sometimes it just doesn't happen and at higher levels of the play the backfield just becomes more and more inaccessible. |
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Post by bigpig on Jan 9, 2020 3:05:10 GMT
I've been liking this Behemoth list more and will likely go with a variation. It has no DS and is just good old stealer slingshot. Thinking about a way to put in an Exocrine in pod....
++ Battalion Detachment +5CP (Tyranids) [94 PL, 1,415pts] ++
+ No Force Org Slot +
Hive Fleet: Behemoth
+ HQ +
Malanthropes [5 PL, 120pts]
. Malanthrope
Tervigon [13 PL, 180pts]: Massive Scything Talons, Stinger Salvo
. Adaptive Physiology: Dermic Symbiosis
The Swarmlord [15 PL, 250pts]
+ Troops +
Genestealers [16 PL, 228pts]
. 19x Genestealer: 19x Rending Claws
Genestealers [16 PL, 228pts]
. 19x Genestealer: 19x Rending Claws
Hormagaunts [9 PL, 135pts]: 27x Hormagaunt
Termagants [9 PL, 120pts]
. 30x Termagant (Fleshborer)
Termagants [9 PL, 120pts]
. 30x Termagant (Fleshborer)
+ Elites +
Lictor [2 PL, 34pts]: Flesh Hooks, Rending Claws
++ Battalion Detachment +5CP (Tyranids) [31 PL, 584pts] ++
+ No Force Org Slot +
Hive Fleet: Kronos
+ HQ +
Neurothrope [4 PL, 90pts]
Neurothrope [4 PL, 90pts]
+ Troops +
Ripper Swarms [2 PL, 33pts]: 3x Ripper Swarm
Ripper Swarms [2 PL, 33pts]: 3x Ripper Swarm
Termagants [6 PL, 80pts]
. 20x Termagant (Fleshborer)
+ Elites +
Hive Guard [13 PL, 258pts]
. Hive Guard: Impaler Cannon
. Hive Guard: Impaler Cannon
. Hive Guard: Impaler Cannon
. Hive Guard: Impaler Cannon
. Hive Guard: Impaler Cannon
. Hive Guard: Impaler Cannon
++ Total: [125 PL, 1,999pts] ++
Created with BattleScribe (https://battlescribe.net)
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Post by No One on Jan 9, 2020 3:07:54 GMT
Regarding the Supreme Command, I am aware of nothing that prohibits us from taking a mixed fleet detachment. It's the same thing as prevents us from souping GSC: battle brothers prevents Tyranid from being the detachment Keyword. |
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Post by bigpig on Jan 9, 2020 3:13:08 GMT
Regarding the Supreme Command, I am aware of nothing that prohibits us from taking a mixed fleet detachment. It's the same thing as prevents us from souping GSC: battle brothers prevents Tyranid from being the detachment Keyword. From the FAQ A Tyranids Detachment is therefore one which only includes units with both the Tyranids and <Hive Fleet> keyword. I don't think anything says it has to have the SAME <Hive Fleet> key word. It just prevents GSC from souping in the same detachment. Any other wording I've been missing. |
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Post by No One on Jan 9, 2020 3:14:24 GMT
Battle brothers, not being a nid detachment. Because that doesn't prevent souping, it just means that you don't get all the shinies from that det.
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Behemoth?
Jan 9, 2020 12:25:40 GMT
via mobile
Post by dranzyl on Jan 9, 2020 12:25:40 GMT
I was under the impression that all those < insert your own fleet/ chapter/ craftworld> must be the same. Not just <insert ANY fleet/ chapter/ craftworld>.
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Post by bigpig on Jan 9, 2020 12:37:15 GMT
I was under the impression that all those < insert your own fleet/ chapter/ craftworld> must be the same. Not just <insert ANY fleet/ chapter/ craftworld>. In a mixed hive fleet detachment you don't get the hive fleet trait benefits so mixing them in one detachment of build a bug pretty much nullifies anything you picked if they aren't all the same. For traditional hive fleets you lose access to the trait in that detachment but you still get psychic powers, etc EDIT: Mixing can only be done in non-match play games, in which case the above applies. (thanks NoOne for catching and clarifying) |
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Post by No One on Jan 9, 2020 13:05:11 GMT
I was under the impression that all those < insert your own fleet/ chapter/ craftworld> must be the same. Not just <insert ANY fleet/ chapter/ craftworld>. As bigpig said, that's only for specific bonuses. The restriction is that they must share a Faction Keyword (and that can't be any of the super Faction Keywords like Imp). Which isn't an issue for everyone else, since they've got stuff between super Faction and <thing> e.g. Adeptus Astartes, or Aeldari. But our super Faction is Tyranid, which is a no go, and we've got nothing in between that and <Hive Fleet>. In a mixed hive fleet detachment you don't get the hive fleet trait benefits so mixing them in one detachment of build a bug pretty much nullifies anything you picked if they aren't all the same. For traditional hive fleets you lose access to the trait in that detachment but you still get psychic powers, etc Incorrect, see my previous post. |
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Post by bigpig on Jan 9, 2020 13:40:51 GMT
I was under the impression that all those < insert your own fleet/ chapter/ craftworld> must be the same. Not just <insert ANY fleet/ chapter/ craftworld>. As bigpig said, that's only for specific bonuses. The restriction is that they must share a Faction Keyword (and that can't be any of the super Faction Keywords like Imp). Which isn't an issue for everyone else, since they've got stuff between super Faction and <thing> e.g. Adeptus Astartes, or Aeldari. But our super Faction is Tyranid, which is a no go, and we've got nothing in between that and <Hive Fleet>. In a mixed hive fleet detachment you don't get the hive fleet trait benefits so mixing them in one detachment of build a bug pretty much nullifies anything you picked if they aren't all the same. For traditional hive fleets you lose access to the trait in that detachment but you still get psychic powers, etc Incorrect, see my previous post. Ok, I see. You are referring to the Matched Play FAQ? Yes, you are correct. |
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Post by mattblowers on Jan 9, 2020 14:05:05 GMT
Battle brothers, not being a nid detachment. Because that doesn't prevent souping, it just means that you don't get all the shinies from that det. It's a dumbass (please do not swear) rule. We are the only faction that gets such a silly (please do not swear) thing. Once again proving that they don't know how to do Tyranids. I recognize what they were trying to do, they just fethed it up. Craftsworlds, Harlequins, Drukhari can all do it, they just can't be Aeldari mixed. Space Marines can do it, Chaos with loyalties can do it (even daemon and chaos space marine as long as they align with the same god). Just us that can't. Chaos is the most restricted other than us. I get no GSC with 'nids otherwise we'd have ways to get really cheap battalions with our best units sprinkled in. But who really is afraid of a mixed detachment 'nid army? A unit of kronos hive guard with kraken stealers doesn't do anything other than make both units worse since they can't reroll 1s or fall back and charge/advance 3D6. OK, enough salt. Back to your regularly scheduled programming. |
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Post by hannibal on Jan 9, 2020 20:48:02 GMT
I've been trying to make Behemoth work too and keep coming up against the same problems of everything needing to work and go off with stratagams and psychic powers and model positioning. For me trying to make it work out of deepstrike has too many potential points of failure. Also a Trygon to transporting a brood of Genestealers adds to the cost. The best I have come up with is a supreme command of two behemoth Flyrants and a Behemoth Old One Eye who advances with the Kraken Genestealers
However I'm starting to see value in starting Behemoth Genestealer on the board and using the Swarmlord slingshot with the new psychic power.
Even so I think Kraken is possibly still stronger with the 3d6 advance roll and the ability to fall back and charge whereas Behemoth is a single advantage of rerolling charges.
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Post by kazetanade on Jan 11, 2020 20:14:17 GMT
Wow. I spent more than an hour writing a post and I lose it to a misclick on my mouse. Sorry guys, no wall of text for you.
Quick breakdown:
1. I had a test game with SL and Hormagants and 2 GS, with our new shooting shenanigans. Vs Chaos Deredeo/Helverin/Gallant/Oblitz/Disclords. Hormagants did ok on killing marines with some luck but were annihilated. SL punched a Knight to pieces with Smite support. HG and Exo did (please do not swear) on dice and Oblitz completed destroyed them. Flyrants did (please do not swear) then swung and did stupid good.
2. Triple Flyrants can work, 2 Flyrants felt bad to use strategems on (is 9" 3d6 discard lowest rerollable a 90+% or a 70+%?). SL in Behemoth felt good. Hormagants felt OK/viable, just squishy vs gunlines and such.
3. HG DS + SL feels bad, since they fight for Onslaught. HG DS Jorm can work without, but like others pointed out, feels bad.
4. SL + 2 GS + 1 Horma can work, with Male/Venom/TG support. Gotta play cagey, and aware SL wont be doing much til T3 and T4, like traditional GS Sling lists.
5. Oblitz fully buffed are nonsense.
6. Cant remember anything else.
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Behemoth?
Jan 11, 2020 22:01:49 GMT
via mobile
Post by brianb9999 on Jan 11, 2020 22:01:49 GMT
5. Oblitz fully buffed are nonsense. I will second this. A buddy of mine has a list that clears chaff like crazy with bikes and heldrakes, pins you in the corner, then drops the oblits down and annihilates everything. It’s brutal. I keep going back and forth about Behemoth vs Kraken, think I’ll try a similar list with either hive fleet and see what’s best. |
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