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Post by No One on Dec 18, 2019 11:31:43 GMT
Quick math Vs Mal/Mal jorm warriors with physiology Storm eagle shoots at 4+ rr1's, wounds on 4s and warriors save on 3+. Average is 1-2 wounds to the warriors on small arms, big missiles have 2 hits on 2+ to wound, so 1-2 wounds to kill 2 warriors or 1 warrior if we pop the stratagem. Full blown storm eagle kills 2 warriors. Storm raven does a bit better, with full 12 shots from the cannon and wounds on a 3+. On AVG they give us 7 saves --> 1 dead warrior. Missiles might kill another one but on average not really. And all of that is without catalyst. If 3 IH flyers shoot me and manage to kill 3-4 warriors total, I'll take it. If they hover to benefit from character auras, got my HG /HVC / exos to say hello to them. New warriors are seriously tough. This was in the context of adding stuff to GSC as effective use of mandatory points on board. You're not fitting in a mal/'cepter with those points for a single warrior or HG squad. Also, those aren't the nasty ones. It's stormtalons/stormhawks. So essentially it was: 12 shots on 2s rr 1s, wounding on 3s, 2.5 dead per (I think I whiffed a tad bit here). Then 3 lascannon/typhoon shots each, which kill another HG each basically. So 3 of them kill the squad pretty much: less for warriors with -1, and sometimes run with twin HB instead of twin las or typhoon, which does help a lot, especially for the HG. But still quite likely half the squad: and since this is with GSC, you gain minimal benefit from soaking firepower. I really think the blipps and the possibilty to alter deployment really can help a nid gunline. Many armies can scout deploy and re deploy. Having the blipps really gives us the last Word there and keeps units 9” away. That can buy an extra round of shooting and then abiltyvto drop screens in T2 can also help. ...I mean, it's nice for flyers and RG, and that's basically it. It's a strong redeployment ability, which only benefits nids in the form of move blocking going 2nd/pre-T1. |
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Post by kelermorph on Dec 18, 2019 12:19:25 GMT
I build mostly nids with maybe a battalion of gsc for cheaper cp and vect Edit: and blips of course, blips are amazing. Just fill it with magus, acolyte iconward, bro bros and maybe an acolyte squad of your choice.
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Post by purestrain on Dec 18, 2019 12:25:30 GMT
Quick math Vs Mal/Mal jorm warriors with physiology Storm eagle shoots at 4+ rr1's, wounds on 4s and warriors save on 3+. Average is 1-2 wounds to the warriors on small arms, big missiles have 2 hits on 2+ to wound, so 1-2 wounds to kill 2 warriors or 1 warrior if we pop the stratagem. Full blown storm eagle kills 2 warriors. Storm raven does a bit better, with full 12 shots from the cannon and wounds on a 3+. On AVG they give us 7 saves --> 1 dead warrior. Missiles might kill another one but on average not really. And all of that is without catalyst. If 3 IH flyers shoot me and manage to kill 3-4 warriors total, I'll take it. If they hover to benefit from character auras, got my HG /HVC / exos to say hello to them. New warriors are seriously tough. This was in the context of adding stuff to GSC as effective use of mandatory points on board. You're not fitting in a mal/'cepter with those points for a single warrior or HG squad. Also, those aren't the nasty ones. It's stormtalons/stormhawks. So essentially it was: 12 shots on 2s rr 1s, wounding on 3s, 2.5 dead per (I think I whiffed a tad bit here). Then 3 lascannon/typhoon shots each, which kill another HG each basically. So 3 of them kill the squad pretty much: less for warriors with -1, and sometimes run with twin HB instead of twin las or typhoon, which does help a lot, especially for the HG. But still quite likely half the squad: and since this is with GSC, you gain minimal benefit from soaking firepower. I really think the blipps and the possibilty to alter deployment really can help a nid gunline. Many armies can scout deploy and re deploy. Having the blipps really gives us the last Word there and keeps units 9” away. That can buy an extra round of shooting and then abiltyvto drop screens in T2 can also help. ...I mean, it's nice for flyers and RG, and that's basically it. It's a strong redeployment ability, which only benefits nids in the form of move blocking going 2nd/pre-T1. All flyers, Warp time, Intercessors in a impulsor, 9" infiltrate. Its basically the best blocking tool in the game, you cant get within 9 no matter what and they come out after they move. |
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Post by wormlord666 on Dec 18, 2019 13:12:49 GMT
I agree with purestrain in disagreeing with NoOne: the blipp-deployment could help more. It could help in an attempt to almost null-deploy with jorm-nids and by cult tricks take the blipped units up to hide everything from first turn, if you dare have just a few things on table. I have not tried this yet.
It generally helps by keeping opponents defensive and uncertain which is nice.
I am going for a Kronos gunline. My biggest fear now is beeing Rushed T1 or 2. By Blood angels, orks, RG, invictors, infiltrators, warptimed stuff and so on. The ability to move after their deployment and even movement can be huge. And ability to Vect upon wings, more dakka, kraken-strat etc. is also huge.
I have yet to test BOB-nids and cult in hard settings and I mostly struggle in my listbuildings between many CP on one hand and cutting away the fat on the other. The cult need cp so I do like 3 battalions.
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Post by No One on Dec 18, 2019 13:34:21 GMT
I agree with purestrain in disagreeing with NoOne: the blipp-deployment could help more. It could help in an attempt to almost null-deploy with jorm-nids and by cult tricks take the blipped units up to hide everything from first turn, if you dare have just a few things on table. I have not tried this yet. It generally helps by keeping opponents defensive and uncertain which is nice. I am going for a Kronos gunline. My biggest fear now is beeing Rushed T1 or 2. By Blood angels, orks, RG, invictors, infiltrators, warptimed stuff and so on. The ability to move after their deployment and even movement can be huge. And ability to Vect upon wings, more dakka, kraken-strat etc. is also huge. I have yet to test BOB-nids and cult in hard settings and I mostly struggle in my listbuildings between many CP on one hand and cutting away the fat on the other. The cult need cp so I do like 3 battalions. I mean, yes but that's what Cult brings to the table, not what blips bring. Your original statement: Their deployment altering only affects Cult, which can be very useful to Cult. It doesn't really do as much for a nid gunline. All flyers, Warp time, Intercessors in a impulsor, 9" infiltrate. Its basically the best blocking tool in the game, you cant get within 9 no matter what and they come out after they move. Doesn't work on warp time/da jump, because that's psychic. Flyers is good, which I mentioned. Infiltrate is...eh: most of that stuff doesn't want to move forward. Useful for RG, maybe some Alpha Legion builds, and invictors. But even with all of that, it's still only useful going 2nd. Like, there's enough strong stuff in Cult to include as allies for nids between psychic, strats and kill units that you definitely want them, and at that point there's some useful stuff you can easily do with blips where relevant. But you don't get enough benefit from blips to justify inclusion of GSC just for that... |
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Post by LordPathos on Dec 18, 2019 14:02:27 GMT
Who and why do ppl think Lictors are godly?
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Post by kelermorph on Dec 18, 2019 14:06:25 GMT
I agree with purestrain in disagreeing with NoOne: the blipp-deployment could help more. It could help in an attempt to almost null-deploy with jorm-nids and by cult tricks take the blipped units up to hide everything from first turn, if you dare have just a few things on table. I have not tried this yet. It generally helps by keeping opponents defensive and uncertain which is nice. I am going for a Kronos gunline. My biggest fear now is beeing Rushed T1 or 2. By Blood angels, orks, RG, invictors, infiltrators, warptimed stuff and so on. The ability to move after their deployment and even movement can be huge. And ability to Vect upon wings, more dakka, kraken-strat etc. is also huge. I have yet to test BOB-nids and cult in hard settings and I mostly struggle in my listbuildings between many CP on one hand and cutting away the fat on the other. The cult need cp so I do like 3 battalions. I mean, yes but that's what Cult brings to the table, not what blips bring. Your original statement: Their deployment altering only affects Cult, which can be very useful to Cult. It doesn't really do as much for a nid gunline. All flyers, Warp time, Intercessors in a impulsor, 9" infiltrate. Its basically the best blocking tool in the game, you cant get within 9 no matter what and they come out after they move. Doesn't work on warp time/da jump, because that's psychic. Flyers is good, which I mentioned. Infiltrate is...eh: most of that stuff doesn't want to move forward. Useful for RG, maybe some Alpha Legion builds, and invictors. But even with all of that, it's still only useful going 2nd. Like, there's enough strong stuff in Cult to include as allies for nids between psychic, strats and kill units that you definitely want them, and at that point there's some useful stuff you can easily do with blips where relevant. But you don't get enough benefit from blips to justify inclusion of GSC just for that... Against warp time there is shadow in the warp and Kronos. Gunlines usually have Kronos, so there´s almost no way anyone is warp timing anything inside relevant distances.
Blips are not an autoinclude by any means, but you only need a patrol detachment of gsc to get access to spells (magus), vect, blips (3 more via strat if need be) and the troop choice of your liking. Battalion ofc is the preferred one, but if you are running a brigade of nids and are short in points, there´s always the option for a patrol full of goodies dirt cheap. The way I see it, there is almost no reason not to take a GSC detachment in a competitive environment simply due to the flexibility it brings.
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Post by xsquidz on Dec 18, 2019 14:11:56 GMT
Who and why do ppl think Lictors are godly? Not godly maybe but they have a new strat to stop overwatch and gives them +1 to charge and they can naturally re-roll charges from DS. Strat is better then a power, because a power can be denied, only way to stop a strat is to vect it which only 2 armies have and neither has amazing overwatch ability. Its just another nice tool in the toolbox. |
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Post by No One on Dec 18, 2019 14:13:54 GMT
Against warp time there is shadow in the warp and Kronos. Gunlines usually have Kronos, so there´s almost no way anyone is warp timing anything inside relevant distances. Someone brought blips up as a counter to it, which...it's not. And Kronos isn't doing anything against T1 warptime going 2nd, which is the only time blips are really relevant. |
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Post by xsquidz on Dec 18, 2019 14:25:48 GMT
Against warp time there is shadow in the warp and Kronos. Gunlines usually have Kronos, so there´s almost no way anyone is warp timing anything inside relevant distances. Someone brought blips up as a counter to it, which...it's not. And Kronos isn't doing anything against T1 warptime going 2nd, which is the only time blips are really relevant. Something like magnus can be 16", the psyker with +3" range can be behind that to cast the power. I agree its very hard to counter warptime etc T1! (I just played against an eldar player that could do it twice, once on craftworlds once on quinns) Its actually easier in later rounds because you can DS kronos rippers all around and spread that bubble. |
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Post by topaxygourouni on Dec 18, 2019 14:28:56 GMT
Well, if your opponent has a 16" move threat and warptime and they get to play first, deploy way tf back. Add some rippers in front of the hive guard so that even if they make it, they can only hit the rippers.
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Post by xsquidz on Dec 18, 2019 14:57:40 GMT
Well, if your opponent has a 16" move threat and warptime and they get to play first, deploy way tf back. Add some rippers in front of the hive guard so that even if they make it, they can only hit the rippers. They can hit and kill the rippers and pile into the hive guard, in which case they still can't shoot. if the terrain and stuff works then you might be safe, but it can be harder then it seems based on the table. If you surround them with something fairly tough like warriors it could work, but in CC is where warriors "can" start to fall apart, they get way less buffs. |
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Post by purestrain on Dec 18, 2019 15:05:36 GMT
I agree with purestrain in disagreeing with NoOne: the blipp-deployment could help more. It could help in an attempt to almost null-deploy with jorm-nids and by cult tricks take the blipped units up to hide everything from first turn, if you dare have just a few things on table. I have not tried this yet. It generally helps by keeping opponents defensive and uncertain which is nice. I am going for a Kronos gunline. My biggest fear now is beeing Rushed T1 or 2. By Blood angels, orks, RG, invictors, infiltrators, warptimed stuff and so on. The ability to move after their deployment and even movement can be huge. And ability to Vect upon wings, more dakka, kraken-strat etc. is also huge. I have yet to test BOB-nids and cult in hard settings and I mostly struggle in my listbuildings between many CP on one hand and cutting away the fat on the other. The cult need cp so I do like 3 battalions. I mean, yes but that's what Cult brings to the table, not what blips bring. Your original statement: Their deployment altering only affects Cult, which can be very useful to Cult. It doesn't really do as much for a nid gunline. All flyers, Warp time, Intercessors in a impulsor, 9" infiltrate. Its basically the best blocking tool in the game, you cant get within 9 no matter what and they come out after they move. Doesn't work on warp time/da jump, because that's psychic. Flyers is good, which I mentioned. Infiltrate is...eh: most of that stuff doesn't want to move forward. Useful for RG, maybe some Alpha Legion builds, and invictors. But even with all of that, it's still only useful going 2nd. Like, there's enough strong stuff in Cult to include as allies for nids between psychic, strats and kill units that you definitely want them, and at that point there's some useful stuff you can easily do with blips where relevant. But you don't get enough benefit from blips to justify inclusion of GSC just for that... Considering you can blanket the front of your own Deploy with a bunch of 6++ guys so they cant make it through, or if they think thats whats up, then hold back, and you just flip over a sanctus and blast his psycher. Ive had it happen and its hilarious, but its not the norm by any account, but having the keller be at the front to just drop 12 shots into whatever they think is going to do well at that 9" zone is hilarious, apex kek if hes in cover so they cant shoot him even if they have snipers for 2cp  |
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Post by topaxygourouni on Dec 18, 2019 15:08:55 GMT
Well, if your opponent has a 16" move threat and warptime and they get to play first, deploy way tf back. Add some rippers in front of the hive guard so that even if they make it, they can only hit the rippers. They can hit and kill the rippers and pile into the hive guard, in which case they still can't shoot. if the terrain and stuff works then you might be safe, but it can be harder then it seems based on the table. If you surround them with something fairly tough like warriors it could work, but in CC is where warriors "can" start to fall apart, they get way less buffs. If I get a warptimed Magnus to kill 3 rippers and the only cost I have to pay for that is that my HG don't shoot for a turn, and Magnus is now in front of my whole army all alone, I'll take it 11 times out of 10. |
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Post by purestrain on Dec 18, 2019 15:13:37 GMT
They can hit and kill the rippers and pile into the hive guard, in which case they still can't shoot. if the terrain and stuff works then you might be safe, but it can be harder then it seems based on the table. If you surround them with something fairly tough like warriors it could work, but in CC is where warriors "can" start to fall apart, they get way less buffs. If I get a warptimed Magnus to kill 3 rippers and the only cost I have to pay for that is that my HG don't shoot for a turn, and Magnus is now in front of my whole army all alone, I'll take it 11 times out of 10. you see, thats not what happens. Arhiman warp times him up the field, he then mutilates your rippers, then your hive guard, then he charges your HT and it dies too. |
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