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Post by nintura on Dec 8, 2019 15:47:12 GMT
And then there's the Jorm power, which you can only use twice in a game (it says when unit comes in from deepstrike so turnes 2 and 3.....) I'll trade you for the Hydra power  |
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Post by killercroc on Dec 8, 2019 16:00:22 GMT
This one is so iffy with the wording it's really hard to tell. If it's every unit can re-roll a check that'd be amazing! Really give some backbone to the old psychic choir, however if it's just one re-roll per turn for all of your units it's pretty much trash. But knowing GW it could easily be one or the other...
The other downside to it is the fact that we have limited useful powers that the only thing worth spamming is Zoans for them sweet sweet mental bullets, and re-rolls to cast with the +1 to cast per smite would make them reliable at getting it off. 2 Neuros and 3 units of Zoans could be a much bigger thing if this is the case.
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Post by kazetanade on Dec 8, 2019 18:45:30 GMT
This one is so iffy with the wording it's really hard to tell. If it's every unit can re-roll a check that'd be amazing! Really give some backbone to the old psychic choir, however if it's just one re-roll per turn for all of your units it's pretty much trash. But knowing GW it could easily be one or the other... The other downside to it is the fact that we have limited useful powers that the only thing worth spamming is Zoans for them sweet sweet mental bullets, and re-rolls to cast with the +1 to cast per smite would make them reliable at getting it off. 2 Neuros and 3 units of Zoans could be a much bigger thing if this is the case. Arent there any other examples we can use for this wording? Like Farseers or something? or some other effect that triggers once a game/phase? |
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Post by 1b2a on Dec 9, 2019 1:51:21 GMT
And then there's the Jorm power, which you can only use twice in a game (it says when unit comes in from deepstrike so turnes 2 and 3.....) TBF, its powerful for that T2 T3 beta strike. Its reroll hits in shooting and melee, assuming you knew how to get in. It only works on one target unit... You could bring a 140 point acolyte squad and do the same. The limits on these powers are asinine |
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Post by kazetanade on Dec 9, 2019 4:29:43 GMT
TBF, its powerful for that T2 T3 beta strike. Its reroll hits in shooting and melee, assuming you knew how to get in. It only works on one target unit... You could bring a 140 point acolyte squad and do the same. The limits on these powers are asinine Yea, I only just saw that yesterday. A little bit of a bummer. Still, not the worst, but not as plug and play. |
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Post by 1b2a on Dec 9, 2019 5:36:28 GMT
It only works on one target unit... You could bring a 140 point acolyte squad and do the same. The limits on these powers are asinine Yea, I only just saw that yesterday. A little bit of a bummer. Still, not the worst, but not as plug and play. Silver lining is you can make a list that has acolytes as well, so warriors so tyranid DS could hit one unit, melee gsc bomb against another, gsc shooting against a unit . I could see that as a use |
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Post by No One on Dec 9, 2019 5:58:48 GMT
Honestly, I think the only thing nids have over GSC is staying power: 9 warriors with 3+ against basically everything, with possible -1 damage, should be a fair bit more durable than anything GSC has. Durable enough to warrant the lower output/less reliable delivery? Possibly, provided the list works with that.
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Post by kazetanade on Dec 9, 2019 6:22:08 GMT
Nids have more mortal wound generation than Cult too. Definitely higher on staying power. Easier/better gun options. More/better anti-infantry output.
I actually see Jorm spell really works for targeting big stuff. If you drop 2 HG units on a Repulsor I think that thing dies. If no need for that, you can drop 1 a turn. Pair with GSC Laser Drop and that's 2 dead Repulsors. So like, it's still pretty legit IMO - it's like the Doom of Eldar codex but with Hit Rolls, and I can live with that.
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Post by mule on Dec 9, 2019 6:31:18 GMT
This one is so iffy with the wording it's really hard to tell. If it's every unit can re-roll a check that'd be amazing! Really give some backbone to the old psychic choir, however if it's just one re-roll per turn for all of your units it's pretty much trash. But knowing GW it could easily be one or the other... The other downside to it is the fact that we have limited useful powers that the only thing worth spamming is Zoans for them sweet sweet mental bullets, and re-rolls to cast with the +1 to cast per smite would make them reliable at getting it off. 2 Neuros and 3 units of Zoans could be a much bigger thing if this is the case. the way reese read it is that you can do it per psyker. |
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Post by topaxygourouni on Dec 9, 2019 8:02:42 GMT
My other army is about 12k points of Tzeentch in all forms. An army's psychic ability really comes down to ONE good power. Does your army have ONE good power it can cast reliably? Then it's a good army.
Now everyone is raving about T Sons psykers and their power. T. Sons psychic is not that good. It only becomes strong because they get to ignore a core rule of the game (smite degrades). All their other spells have too high casting costs. The Daemons of Tzeentch powers are practically all useless save for maybe Gaze of fate, and that doesn't work in the opponent's turn when it would be most useful. The rest are all (please do not swear). T.Sons powers can only be cast on T. Sons units so they're out (9+ to do d3 MW yay). This leaves the csm powers, which basically boils down to warptime and maybe death hex. So 2 good powers out of 18 and a core rule ignore = magic powerhouse.
So the question is: do Nids have 2 good powers they can cast reliably? I think we can't argue the reliably part. With reroll 1's, barb +1 and maleceptor +1 to cast and given our low casting costs, we can.
Do we have two good powers? Before PA, I would say almost. And I'm not talking catalyst. Catalyst is not a good power. It protects one unit while painting a bullzeye on your other units and it's not impactful enough. However, we did have onslaught which, combined with opportunistic advance, is basically warptime on steroids and we did have the horror which is strictly better than T Sons -1 to hit on a single unit buff, only horror is cheaper. The only reason horror is not THAT strong any more is the stupid chapter master.
With PA tho, we get three (potentially four) great powers.
Kraken first: on a 5+, on UNLIMITED RANGE, everybody rerolls charges. The value that comes out of a single 5+ cast is ridiculous.
Jorm: 6+, unlimited range chapter master buff. If you have played against a chapter master, you know how strong this thing is, especially on an army with not great ballistic skill.
Gorgon: assault doctrine on demand? Yessir. It does have low range, but it's enough for the Gorgon psyker to drop from DS and buffing the rest, without even having to make the charge itself.
Behemoth: nobody can deny the strength of Veterans of the long war. Being able to get it on a spell is great, even though the casting cost is on the high side.
Overall, we now have some great spells and we can cast them reliably. Nids have good psychic, we just need to use it correctly. Can we spam 1000 pts on psykers? Nope. Will a single neurothrope or tyrant with barb be able to impact psychic phase strongly? No doubt about that.
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Post by No One on Dec 9, 2019 9:47:57 GMT
My other army is about 12k points of Tzeentch in all forms. An army's psychic ability really comes down to ONE good power. Does your army have ONE good power it can cast reliably? Then it's a good army. ...What? I really don't get how you came to that conclusion. One good psychic power means exactly that: you have one good psychic power. So you want to take one psyker to cast that power reliably, and...that's your psychic done. This is the case for most armies with psykers: IG? +1 sv is very strong on e.g. bulgryns/baneblade, -1 to hit is solid. And that's it. Take a psyker, done. Ditto marines, or CSM. Then you've got the other 'psyker' armies, where the powers are OK, but a lot of your HQs are psykers, so you have to take them (e.g. daemons, nids). Good psychic armies: Eldar (guide, doom, jinx/protect, conceal, quicken, fortune: a lot of good powers), TS (just keep smiting, because D3 MW per unit per turn is good. Throw in a couple of other decent powers and Ahriman). Like, I think we've got enough strong and decent powers to say we've got a good psychic phase, as with GSC, and it's not like we can not take psychics. But to say that one good power makes a good psychic army? Stretch. Both single (enemy) unit, which diminishes their value: still strong though. A better way of phrasing Jorm is unlimited range Doom: reroll hits is worse than wounds, and conditions on DS units, but 1 less WC, no range and Doom is an incredibly strong power. It's model within: so you're only going to be able to buff anything that doesn't wander off. Like, I really don't think this one's that great: almost 100% I'd prefer cat than warping dets to grab a Gorgon det. ...Depends what you cast it on. By and large, it's a worse warptime/quicken. Can it already advance and charge (*cough cough*)? Worse. Are you not Kraken? Worse. Are you Kraken and moving more than 6" base? ~Same, usually worse. Like, that's 1 CP to move usually 8-10" more. Horms move 8", gargs move 12", flyrants move 16". There's not a huge amount that wants this over warptime for melee: it's basically just Swarmlord stuff, since then you get to worse warptime twice. Especially since onslaught stuffs you over if you fail it/get denied, while warptime doesn't. Put another way, we pay 250 pts on the regular for guaranteed warptime. |
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Post by No One on Dec 9, 2019 10:19:04 GMT
Nids have more mortal wound generation than Cult too. Definitely higher on staying power. Easier/better gun options. More/better anti-infantry output. Was specifically referring to DS drops  . Which acolytes beat out basically anything nids have for damage. Nids have more options for applying damage at range i.e. 'guaranteed' and mitigating issues with screening. But even here, neos do approx the same as an exo against hard targets (vs T7, one exo is ~6.7 wounds, 4 mining lasers with alphus is ~5.2, plus other firepower) and scale far better. Jorm/Kronos vs single minded. Nids do better against light/med infantry with devilgants, exo as well against e.g. primaris though. But enough improvement to matter? Definitely if you want anti-light infantry shooting (devilgants), otherwise...I don't think so without some other reason. Just because nids, or as a more durable threat saturation (e.g. exo with triple flyrant, adaptation warriors with basically anything decently tanky)? I could see something being there. But if you want pure DS damage, I still think Cult has nids beat. |
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Post by mule on Dec 9, 2019 14:12:38 GMT
Nids have more mortal wound generation than Cult too. Definitely higher on staying power. Easier/better gun options. More/better anti-infantry output. Was specifically referring to DS drops . Which acolytes beat out basically anything nids have for damage. Nids have more options for applying damage at range i.e. 'guaranteed' and mitigating issues with screening. But even here, neos do approx the same as an exo against hard targets (vs T7, one exo is ~6.7 wounds, 4 mining lasers with alphus is ~5.2, plus other firepower) and scale far better. Jorm/Kronos vs single minded. Nids do better against light/med infantry with devilgants, exo as well against e.g. primaris though. But enough improvement to matter? Definitely if you want anti-light infantry shooting (devilgants), otherwise...I don't think so without some other reason. Just because nids, or as a more durable threat saturation (e.g. exo with triple flyrant, adaptation warriors with basically anything decently tanky)? I could see something being there. But if you want pure DS damage, I still think Cult has nids beat. The only caveat is that nids are more defensible because they have access to pods which means auspex protection. Gsc doesnt have access to that. But their combos and damage is much better. |
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Post by nintura on Dec 9, 2019 17:03:09 GMT
With PA tho, we get three (potentially four) great powers. Kraken first: on a 5+, on UNLIMITED RANGE, everybody rerolls charges. The value that comes out of a single 5+ cast is ridiculous. Jorm: 6+, unlimited range chapter master buff. If you have played against a chapter master, you know how strong this thing is, especially on an army with not great ballistic skill. Gorgon: assault doctrine on demand? Yessir. It does have low range, but it's enough for the Gorgon psyker to drop from DS and buffing the rest, without even having to make the charge itself. Behemoth: nobody can deny the strength of Veterans of the long war. Being able to get it on a spell is great, even though the casting cost is on the high side. Overall, we now have some great spells and we can cast them reliably. Nids have good psychic, we just need to use it correctly. Can we spam 1000 pts on psykers? Nope. Will a single neurothrope or tyrant with barb be able to impact psychic phase strongly? No doubt about that. See? That's what BUGS (heh) me. You say we have 4 good spells... but they are all tied behind specific hive fleets. What about those of us that dont play those fleets? Or use the custom ones... |
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Post by mule on Dec 9, 2019 17:12:57 GMT
With PA tho, we get three (potentially four) great powers. Kraken first: on a 5+, on UNLIMITED RANGE, everybody rerolls charges. The value that comes out of a single 5+ cast is ridiculous. Jorm: 6+, unlimited range chapter master buff. If you have played against a chapter master, you know how strong this thing is, especially on an army with not great ballistic skill. Gorgon: assault doctrine on demand? Yessir. It does have low range, but it's enough for the Gorgon psyker to drop from DS and buffing the rest, without even having to make the charge itself. Behemoth: nobody can deny the strength of Veterans of the long war. Being able to get it on a spell is great, even though the casting cost is on the high side. Overall, we now have some great spells and we can cast them reliably. Nids have good psychic, we just need to use it correctly. Can we spam 1000 pts on psykers? Nope. Will a single neurothrope or tyrant with barb be able to impact psychic phase strongly? No doubt about that. See? That's what BUGS (heh) me. You say we have 4 good spells... but they are all tied behind specific hive fleets. What about those of us that dont play those fleets? Or use the custom ones... Splash in the fluffy fleets for the better rules like everyone else. |
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. Which acolytes beat out basically anything nids have for damage. Nids have more options for applying damage at range i.e. 'guaranteed' and mitigating issues with screening. But even here, neos do approx the same as an exo against hard targets (vs T7, one exo is ~6.7 wounds, 4 mining lasers with alphus is ~5.2, plus other firepower) and scale far better. Jorm/Kronos vs single minded. Nids do better against light/med infantry with devilgants, exo as well against e.g. primaris though.