Blood of Baal ideas

[acehilator]

nintura: Two battalions are not really an option for us at 1k, our HQs are either expensive or really underwhelming, so running four @1k is not going to work very well. Three at most (battalion + whatever). I like running a Kraken Patrol at 1k, Flying HT with HVC/RC, AG and the Kraken -1 relic, plus one Ripper swarm. Leaves you 747 points for what you really want to run.

topaxygourouni: Yeah it's not terrible, but I don't really know if Tfexes are worth it. BS 4+ on a beast created for ranged warfare is just so stupid.

[topaxygourouni]

Dec 3, 2019 16:03:08 GMT acehilator said:

nintura: Two battalions are not really an option for us at 1k, our HQs are either expensive or really underwhelming, so running four @1k is not going to work very well. Three at most (battalion + whatever). I like running a Kraken Patrol at 1k, Flying HT with HVC/RC, AG and the Kraken -1 relic, plus one Ripper swarm. Leaves you 747 points for what you really want to run.

topaxygourouni: Yeah it's not terrible, but I don't really know if Tfexes are worth it. BS 4+ on a beast created for ranged warfare is just so stupid.

48", str 10, ap-3, d6 damage tho... Basically 6 lascannon shots for cheaper than 2 lascannons.

I would give a pretty good portion of my daughter to be able to remove useless stuff from our monsters, like mandatory 8 pts for a useless cluster spine or the mandatory 10 pts for the massive scytals on tervigon and maleceptor.

[acehilator]

C'mon, you know that the problem is not the weapon itself but the unit that it is mounted on

Comparing Rupture Tfex to Quad Lascannon Relic Contemptor Mortis is just hilarious at this point, and that thing isn't seeing play because it's not good enough. And I'm over here like DAFUUUUUUUUQ.

*sad weapon beast noises*

[topaxygourouni]

It is what it is. We want long range high str shooting? This is what we have.

I was surprised there was not a stratagem for the T-fex in PA, given that even gargoyles got a freaking strat.

Epoxy combustion: 1CP: When you select a Tyrannofex to shoot with. Choose one of the following effects:

1. You may reroll the d6 damage roll for the rupture cannon.
2. You may reroll wound rolls of 1 for the acid spray
3. Fleshborer Hive shots gain ap-1.

I would dig that.

[acehilator]

Yeah 100%. Also our (please do not swear) flyers didn't get stratagems either, so looks like the ones we got are just strokes of genius (or so GWs designers tell themselves, probably)

The other option for high S shooting are HG and Dakkafexes with HVCs. Gotta do the math on that.

[topaxygourouni]

Dec 3, 2019 16:22:30 GMT acehilator said:

Yeah 100%. Also our (please do not swear) flyers didn't get stratagems either, so looks like the ones we got are just strokes of genius (or so GWs designers tell themselves, probably)

The other option for high S shooting are HG and Dakkafexes with HVCs. Gotta do the math on that.

I would bet my dinner that there was another page of stratagems, one for every unit, then they went to print with some stupid restriction like "ermagherd too many pages, need to remove 1" and it got axed.

Even if lost the bet I wouldn't mind because I'm fat and I need to lose weight.

EDIT:

1 rupturefex vs 2 HVC carnifex.

Let's give the fexes enhanced senses and spore cysts, and let's leave their second arms empty for now.

So we got: Rupturefex: 197 pts

2 x carnifex with HVC: (67+10+10+18)x2 = 210 pts, so almost the same.


OFFENSE:

Rupturefex: 6 shots, 48" range, BS 4+, str 10, ap -3, damage d6 (3.5). Average of 3 hits.
Carnifexes: 2d3 shots (4), 44" range (8" move + 36" range), str 9, ap-2 , 3 damage. Average of 3 hits.

So offense wise, the rupturefex is actually doing slightly better (slightly longer range, 0.5 more damage per shot, better ap. Carnifexes have the benefit of being able to move and therefore cover more angles.

DEFENSE:

Rupturefex: 14 wounds, T8, 3+ armor
2 Carnifex: 16 wounds, T7, 3+ armor, -1 to hit.

Defensewise the Fexes do slightly better, lower toughness but slightly more wounds and -1 to hit.

Overall they are pretty close I'd say. The carnifexes have a better stability (fixed damage, better BS) but the T-fex has a higher max damage output if the stars align. Of course we did not consider Hive fleets or physiologies, and we of course left 2 of the carnifex arms naked, although that would take the cost up.


It's actually pretty damn close.

[nintura]

man, can we get updates to battlescribe already? I want to be spending my time theorycrafting a list (or 12)

[kazetanade]

For 28pts more you get the ability to shred some infantry units, or chip damage against a medium vehicle. I'd say there's no contest, rather than it being close.

Also, there is a difference between "not good enough" and "there are better options".

I'm not sure what I would give to our T-Fex as a strategem. Assuming we want it to be as unique as that Toxicrene strategem, with an actual useful bonus - would really need to sit down and think about it. Probably something tied to its ability as a battle tank, rather than as a gun platform, like being able to shrug off damage by reducing it in half. The TFex is huge and on the battlefield I imagine its meant to be like facing off a Dreadnought class vessel vs a Cruiser. At its T8 and W16? If it started reducing all damage down by half (and has that Adaptive for 5++ and double W for damage), it's going to absorb a lot of hate before it gets taken out of the game.

If the singular had a chance to survive all 5 turns of a game, then like HG it has a really good chance of being a huge contributor.

One thing though is that as these abilities we're getting are all tied to strategems, we're not moving as a design towards MTO, which is how Nids have operated for years. MTO used to come in the form of spamming the same unit x3 or x7 in the case of Flyrants. There's no point having 3 Toxicrenes because only 1 can benefit from the strategem, there's less point to more than 1 Exocrene (because the 5++ ignore table only goes on 1, unless you spend both on Exocrenes and give up on other places). More than 1 Maleceptor isnt great either due to the short range of its ability, meaning only 1 of them have a good chance to being effective early on. But one of each is not looking bad at all, but the threats we're bringing I'm not sure whether we are achieving MTO (you could argue it both ways, I think). I DO like each monster having their own specialist role and rules to reflect really cool stuff they do.

On a side note, I expected the Haruspex to get the "COME BACK HERE" rule. I mean, it's got a huge grasping tongue meant to grab people running away and nom them. Really surprised the Toxicrene got it, I was almost certain he'd get a stronger Mortal Wound generating strategem to double down on its role as this huge messy acidic venom thing that makes everything around it melt. Very thematic. But the Haruspex got a reroll to hit instead... which was one of the things it really needed. Now it just needs to have its d3A changed to 3 flat and the thing is solid (assuming it ever gets into combat).

I did some really rough points chewing. If we were to bring an Exocrene with pod, a Toxicrene with pod, a Maleceptor, HG and Raveners, SL, Broodlord and GS, we'd have something like 400 points left to spend. Not a lot - which means we'll not get to field all our toys at once. Gotta have to pick what you want to throw about really.

I think the Exocrene really got a good shot here, but let's think objectively - at 12 shots and exploding 5+, you're getting 14 hits on average, and will wound most relevant targets on a 3+, so you're getting like 9.5 wounds, with either a 5+ or a 6+ to save. so 6 failed saves to 8 failed saves. You'll kill around 1/3 to 1/2 of a Centurion squad, or a full Aggressor squad. Grotesques barely feel it, but most other elites will. Stormshields of course dont feel anything. Is this worth the investment into the thing? Off the top of my head, no not really, but I think its worth trying.

Coming back to the Maleceptor, its fandangled new ability is not bad. The way I see it, it's meant to support extremely aggressive plays. You throw him into the enemy for his psychic/mortal wounds, throw a few other things into them as well, then make everything in their face -1S to shoot. Bolters that should have cleaed Genestealers suddenly cant do their job, and Lascannons suddenly take a dump against the T8 monsters in range. Missle Launchers and Grav go to (please do not swear). Suddenly you HAVE TO KILL THE MALECEPTOR, otherwise you arent going to make your trades on everything else. This gets doubled with a unit of Genestealers that are strung out across or near many units, that cant back away because they need to stay close to their buff bubble to function, or are FLY with low movement left from taking huge damage. Executioners on -2 base to shoot (Horror and Strategem), damn. Riptides on 6s! its huge. And paired with Swarmlord, he's one of the better candidates for T1 on table set up for leading the Synapse Charge combo (other than the BL that can die in overwatch, no one else can hide properly on the table. Not sure about his speed though). But if the Exocrene shows results, I think Maleceptor is the first thing I'll cut out. I wish they buffed his base psychic replacement ability - it's so weak that it really shouldnt replace psychic casting. At least make it a d3 base with 3 flat on a 6, since we're giving up casting ability, and either focused 1 unit 12" or x number units in 6".

I'm a little torn about HG. In Jorg, you have a safety net - then you get 3+ rerollable on the turn it comes down. That's huge for HG. 24 shots becomes 20 hits instead of 16. Assuming you have both Kronos Exo and Jorg HG coming in on the same turn, you have some real scary firepower out of nowhere that will tear holes in peoples armies (or, because Centurions are borked defensively, an Exo and HG buffed in this manner will fail to kill the whole unit). The downside is that the Exo will take a huge beating after dropping, and the HG lose their output potential when not in Kronos. I'm not sure how I feel about this, or double Kronos HG and Exocrene just taking turns on the power. Aaaah, if only we had a way to give a reroll to wound...

The more I work it in my head though, the more that it seems Nids is becoming a shooting army. Like... what?

The last thing I really want to try, but not sure how to build around it, is to bring back Triple Flyrant. With the new charges, there's a lot of potential there. As long as we lock something in combat, we'll continue being a nuisance, basically moving from bully target to bully target. So I figure, SL moves up on T1 launching something else right in for whatever. T2 he launches himself as the starting charge, then Flyrants get Hive Instinct and follow him in. 4 Tyrants basically ganging up on a target every turn, smiting 1 thing to death hopefully and shooting something else to death, then hugging something in combat before killing in enemy's turn.

[topaxygourouni]

Dec 3, 2019 18:22:10 GMT kazetanade said:

For 28pts more you get the ability to shred some infantry units, or chip damage against a medium vehicle. I'd say there's no contest, rather than it being close.

Also, there is a difference between "not good enough" and "there are better options".

I'm not sure what I would give to our T-Fex as a strategem. Assuming we want it to be as unique as that Toxicrene strategem, with an actual useful bonus - would really need to sit down and think about it. Probably something tied to its ability as a battle tank, rather than as a gun platform, like being able to shrug off damage by reducing it in half. The TFex is huge and on the battlefield I imagine its meant to be like facing off a Dreadnought class vessel vs a Cruiser. At its T8 and W16? If it started reducing all damage down by half (and has that Adaptive for 5++ and double W for damage), it's going to absorb a lot of hate before it gets taken out of the game.

If the singular had a chance to survive all 5 turns of a game, then like HG it has a really good chance of being a huge contributor.

One thing though is that as these abilities we're getting are all tied to strategems, we're not moving as a design towards MTO, which is how Nids have operated for years. MTO used to come in the form of spamming the same unit x3 or x7 in the case of Flyrants. There's no point having 3 Toxicrenes because only 1 can benefit from the strategem, there's less point to more than 1 Exocrene (because the 5++ ignore table only goes on 1, unless you spend both on Exocrenes and give up on other places). More than 1 Maleceptor isnt great either due to the short range of its ability, meaning only 1 of them have a good chance to being effective early on. But one of each is not looking bad at all, but the threats we're bringing I'm not sure whether we are achieving MTO (you could argue it both ways, I think). I DO like each monster having their own specialist role and rules to reflect really cool stuff they do.

On a side note, I expected the Haruspex to get the "COME BACK HERE" rule. I mean, it's got a huge grasping tongue meant to grab people running away and nom them. Really surprised the Toxicrene got it, I was almost certain he'd get a stronger Mortal Wound generating strategem to double down on its role as this huge messy acidic venom thing that makes everything around it melt. Very thematic. But the Haruspex got a reroll to hit instead... which was one of the things it really needed. Now it just needs to have its d3A changed to 3 flat and the thing is solid (assuming it ever gets into combat).

I did some really rough points chewing. If we were to bring an Exocrene with pod, a Toxicrene with pod, a Maleceptor, HG and Raveners, SL, Broodlord and GS, we'd have something like 400 points left to spend. Not a lot - which means we'll not get to field all our toys at once. Gotta have to pick what you want to throw about really.

I think the Exocrene really got a good shot here, but let's think objectively - at 12 shots and exploding 5+, you're getting 14 hits on average, and will wound most relevant targets on a 3+, so you're getting like 9.5 wounds, with either a 5+ or a 6+ to save. so 6 failed saves to 8 failed saves. You'll kill around 1/3 to 1/2 of a Centurion squad, or a full Aggressor squad. Grotesques barely feel it, but most other elites will. Stormshields of course dont feel anything. Is this worth the investment into the thing? Off the top of my head, no not really, but I think its worth trying.

Coming back to the Maleceptor, its fandangled new ability is not bad. The way I see it, it's meant to support extremely aggressive plays. You throw him into the enemy for his psychic/mortal wounds, throw a few other things into them as well, then make everything in their face -1S to shoot. Bolters that should have cleaed Genestealers suddenly cant do their job, and Lascannons suddenly take a dump against the T8 monsters in range. Missle Launchers and Grav go to (please do not swear). Suddenly you HAVE TO KILL THE MALECEPTOR, otherwise you arent going to make your trades on everything else. This gets doubled with a unit of Genestealers that are strung out across or near many units, that cant back away because they need to stay close to their buff bubble to function, or are FLY with low movement left from taking huge damage. Executioners on -2 base to shoot (Horror and Strategem), damn. Riptides on 6s! its huge. And paired with Swarmlord, he's one of the better candidates for T1 on table set up for leading the Synapse Charge combo (other than the BL that can die in overwatch, no one else can hide properly on the table. Not sure about his speed though). But if the Exocrene shows results, I think Maleceptor is the first thing I'll cut out. I wish they buffed his base psychic replacement ability - it's so weak that it really shouldnt replace psychic casting. At least make it a d3 base with 3 flat on a 6, since we're giving up casting ability, and either focused 1 unit 12" or x number units in 6".

I'm a little torn about HG. In Jorg, you have a safety net - then you get 3+ rerollable on the turn it comes down. That's huge for HG. 24 shots becomes 20 hits instead of 16. Assuming you have both Kronos Exo and Jorg HG coming in on the same turn, you have some real scary firepower out of nowhere that will tear holes in peoples armies (or, because Centurions are borked defensively, an Exo and HG buffed in this manner will fail to kill the whole unit). The downside is that the Exo will take a huge beating after dropping, and the HG lose their output potential when not in Kronos. I'm not sure how I feel about this, or double Kronos HG and Exocrene just taking turns on the power. Aaaah, if only we had a way to give a reroll to wound...

The more I work it in my head though, the more that it seems Nids is becoming a shooting army. Like... what?

The last thing I really want to try, but not sure how to build around it, is to bring back Triple Flyrant. With the new charges, there's a lot of potential there. As long as we lock something in combat, we'll continue being a nuisance, basically moving from bully target to bully target. So I figure, SL moves up on T1 launching something else right in for whatever. T2 he launches himself as the starting charge, then Flyrants get Hive Instinct and follow him in. 4 Tyrants basically ganging up on a target every turn, smiting 1 thing to death hopefully and shooting something else to death, then hugging something in combat before killing in enemy's turn.

Well, T-fex would only require 1 physiology compared to the carnifex's two, but I see your point.

How about that:

It will not die! (1CP): When a Tyrannofex loses its last wound, roll a d6. On a 4+, place it on the table as close as possible to its previous position and more than 1" away from enemy units with d6 remaining wounds. You can only use this stratagem once per battle.

[topaxygourouni]

By the way, with the physiologies and the maleceptor we can finally play my old love:

3x30 termagant in 20 fleshborer / 10 devourer
2 x Tervigon, double physiology for 5++
Maleceptor
Malanthrope / venomthropes

All leviathan. You now have 90 gribbles with 6+++, -1 to hit and -1 str to incoming damage. If the enemy does not kill all 30 of them in a single go, the tervigons get to bring back 20 every turn. You left 1 alive? They are now 21 again. Just hide 5-6 of each unit behind terrain and we're good to go! Keep bringing your fleshborers back and keep advancing forwards until you lock the enemy in combat. Meanwhile your kronos gunline is kicking it from behind.

[draaen]

So I am thinking something like this for my nidzilla list

Custom Hive Fleet.
Trait 1: Monsters +1 to hit 
Trait 2: Regen 1 wound per turn

I think that with some melee carnifexes, Toxicrenes/Haruspexes with a maleceptor or two to provide the defensive bubble could be really cool and fun. Ripper swarms and warriors could fill out two battalion troops could provide some really cheap objective holders and command points.

Are we 100% on the monster upgrades can only be played twice? I thought I heard it read and it did not say you could only play it once. I just wonder if the reviewers assumed you can only use it once. I mainly ask because in my mind a T8 monster like the Haruspex getting a 5++ -1 Strength to incoming weapons along with wound regeneration so that they can always fight on their second bracket on our turn sounds pretty scary.

This combo would mean my big monsters are almost guaranteed to hit on 3's and the carnifex will hit on 3's or 2's in the first round of combat depending on if they charged. Since the whole army has multiple wounds and the wound regen ability I should get some back each turn and it would really force my opponent to target down a specific target. Pot shots for some free damage will likely just get healed. 

I know I'm giving up a lot of strats and psychic powers for the custom hive fleet but this combo really feels like it can make a melee centered nidzilla list work. Old one eye becomes pretty terrifying. I'm pretty excited to test some of this out. I think it could do okay. 

[acehilator]

Thanks for the math topax, but I think I'd agree with kaze that the comparison does not look favourable for the Tfex when factoring in the secondary guns. Also they suffer more against Flyers and other -1 to hit modifiers.

And you wouldn't put adaptations on Carnifexes, leaving them open for other things.

Regarding kaze's post, if you want to use the Toxicrene, start two on the table? Only 50 points more than podding one? Both with 5++ adaptation? Sounds like insanity, I know.

Start a Kraken Flyrant with the -1 to hit relic on the board with SL, Maleceptor and the two Toxis (I can't get over the fact that I really typed that sentence).

Opportunistic Advance + Onslaught the Flyrant, Hive Commander one Toxi, advance everything else. Metabolic Overdrive on the Maleceptor so he can hopefully bubble both the charging group and the one still standing in the open.
Drop the other two Flyrants next turn, one with the relic AG, using Hive Instinct + Kraken Synaptic Lure.

Other option: maybe Opportunistic Advance + Onslaught on the second Toxi. And then drop three Behemoth Flyrants T2, first with the relic AG and then use Hive Instinct to help the others in.

Not top tier by any means, but hilarious nonetheless, and should be ok for most local metas.

[topaxygourouni]

The best thing about the 5++ toxicrene is not the invul itsel, it's the slower degradation. The thing keeping Toxi behind is the fact that it's a melee monster that loses STR, attacks AND weapon skill as it degrades. Like, wtf were you thinking, GW? Anyways, slower degrade will keep it valuable for longer periods.

[acehilator]

That it's equivalent to a shooting platform losing BS, A and M obviously

But you're right, totally forgot about that.

[mule]

Dec 3, 2019 16:25:41 GMT topaxygourouni said:

Dec 3, 2019 16:22:30 GMT acehilator said:

Yeah 100%. Also our (please do not swear) flyers didn't get stratagems either, so looks like the ones we got are just strokes of genius (or so GWs designers tell themselves, probably)

The other option for high S shooting are HG and Dakkafexes with HVCs. Gotta do the math on that.

I would bet my dinner that there was another page of stratagems, one for every unit, then they went to print with some stupid restriction like "ermagherd too many pages, need to remove 1" and it got axed.

Even if lost the bet I wouldn't mind because I'm fat and I need to lose weight.

EDIT:

1 rupturefex vs 2 HVC carnifex.

Let's give the fexes enhanced senses and spore cysts, and let's leave their second arms empty for now.

So we got: Rupturefex: 197 pts

2 x carnifex with HVC: (67+10+10+18)x2 = 210 pts, so almost the same.


OFFENSE:

Rupturefex: 6 shots, 48" range, BS 4+, str 10, ap -3, damage d6 (3.5). Average of 3 hits.
Carnifexes: 2d3 shots (4), 44" range (8" move + 36" range), str 9, ap-2 , 3 damage. Average of 3 hits.

So offense wise, the rupturefex is actually doing slightly better (slightly longer range, 0.5 more damage per shot, better ap. Carnifexes have the benefit of being able to move and therefore cover more angles.

DEFENSE:

Rupturefex: 14 wounds, T8, 3+ armor
2 Carnifex: 16 wounds, T7, 3+ armor, -1 to hit.

Defensewise the Fexes do slightly better, lower toughness but slightly more wounds and -1 to hit.

Overall they are pretty close I'd say. The carnifexes have a better stability (fixed damage, better BS) but the T-fex has a higher max damage output if the stars align. Of course we did not consider Hive fleets or physiologies, and we of course left 2 of the carnifex arms naked, although that would take the cost up.


It's actually pretty damn close.

Thing is, is you can give tfex a 5++ and although you can do it on 2cfex, it doesnt seem worth it.