Blood of Baal ideas

[kazetanade]

I haven't played, but on the table-

SL, BL
2 x 20 GS
1 x 30 Horma

Neuro, Neuro
3 x Rippers
1 x Exo
1 x Pod

Neuro
1 X 6 HG
1 x Ravener


Edit: the Hormas take TS, the GS are there as threat saturation and just testing things out. The Hormas are my surprise threat unit that strolls in with a 4+ rr1s and a 4+ rr1s ap-1 and just shred elites.

I'll probably try to incorporate Flyrants and TG, or a Warrior blob at some point.

I like the new Toxi but I think it's a trap - it's a decent strategem that has difficulties triggering and actually leaves you in an extremely bad situation if it fails. Itself is only a mid-size threat and is supportive in nature rather than high impact, meaning we'd use it to save something rather than be the beatstick. The Genestealers might be unnecessary, and we get points from there. GS and Mala/Male support might be great though.

The Exo is a suicide drop, the HG gets popped somewhere safe and keeps spraying as many turns as possible.

[brianb9999]

Dec 19, 2019 12:32:29 GMT kazetanade said:

Edit: the Hormas take TS, the GS are there as threat saturation and just testing things out. The Hormas are my surprise threat unit that strolls in with a 4+ rr1s and a 4+ rr1s ap-1 and just shred elites.

Any TS on the stealers? And you cast the new behemoth power on the horms to get to 4+ I take it?

[zimko]

TS is a steep cost on Genestealers, even with this new ability. I'm satisfied with the buff that the power gives by itself, no need to make units more expensive. It's already doubling the damage output vs T8.

[Squire]

I did a bit of math hammer for monstrous size on OOE (talons), swarmlord and a trygon against a knight, all using the re-roll wounds stratagem.

OOE does 22.5 damage, plus any mortals from charging (average 1, I guess). Actually it's slightly lower than 22.5 because I couldn't be bothered factoring in potential misses on a 2+ re-rollable to hit, and just went with 7.5 hits.

Swarmy does 17.8 damage, plus any mortals for 6's to wound which I didn't factor.

A trygon/prime does 18.4 damage

The good news is all of them are probably going to drop a knight down to its lowest bracket, even if it hasn't taken any damage up to that point. Swarmy almost certainly walks out of this without being harmed, especially if you're prepared to throw a CP re-roll at its 3++ if a chainsword swing gets through. OOE and the trygon probably lose 6 wounds

The trygon's numbers are encouraging, if we're expecting a FAQ preventing monstrous size being taken by special characters. If all a trygon does in a game is take 18 wounds off a knight it's done a good job considering they cost about one third the points

[zimko]

Here's another one for ya. Flyrant with toxin sacs, Scythes of Tyran and Murderous size does about 16 damage. And all these creatures can one shot a knight with +1 to wound.

[hivefleetkerrigan]

Anyone know when we'll get a blood of baal FAQ? Also, I still haven't seen one for faith and fury.

[kazetanade]

Zimko has correctly pointed out that we're already doubling damage against T8 - that GS unit now deals 21.6? damage on average to a Knight in a single combat phase. Previously, we needed TS in order to give them a fighting chance against Knights, but it made them too expensive and in a meta full of ignore LOS shooting for anti-infantry, being THAT fragile squishy expensive was bad.

Hormagants at 7pts is already pushing it IMO, and the damage output will never match anywhere near that of a Genestealer's, but it's a lot cheaper with a lot more bodies, and basically a lot more expendable. It does 60+%? of what a Genestealer squad would do for approx 60% of a Genestealer squad cost but also has more bodies to soak (conversely with lower T and no invul). If the TS arent really necessary (the Horms squad can actually go into Intercessors and kill them without needing TS), then running 3 x 30 Hormagants with the usual is going to be really strong since it's a cheap 150pts chaff unit that will also pack a surprise punch in melee no one expects, getting maybe 60% of the damage of a GS squad but costing around 40% of one.

The one I'm super excited to see is OOE or SL into Centurions with the Monstrous adaptation. People are gonna think "Free kill" then gawk in horror when OOE tears up 5 Centurions himself. Without Monstrous, they can also kill Aggressors really well, so we might not even need that Exo Drop in the end - The Exo specifically targets Aggressors, T7 Dreadnoughts, or other faction Fliers/Transports/Tanks, but has an extremely rough matchup against penalties to hit, since its shtick is +1 to hit proccing Symbiostorm. Trading the Exo drop for 2 x Mawlocs will be funny as heck - I think there's a toss up between these here.

I'm not loving the conceptual Toxicrene - IIRC, it's a 9" rerollable, 3d6 discard lowest - that gives it a 67%? Chance of making that charge? I really hate that odds for charging, even my GSC's 80% odds fail too often for me to be comfortable, and Toxicrene not making the charge is a death sentence to him and his protection target. If he had AG to make it at least 77%, which is good enough to make plans around, then he'd be a good contender for DS slots.

I still find myself coming to ask - why not Flyrants? They were good in a meta without Knights, facing some difficulties against the Kill Shot and Linked Prism Fire strategems (the former doesnt exist anymore and the latter only kills 1). They'll basically bully all the scoring and infantry out of the game, and as a 3 man will be able to face down sizeable threats that arent Knight level (which arent meta anymore).

[topaxygourouni]

I really very so much hope that we can get two rerolls on rupturefexes with the custom fleet if they are in synapse... gonna legit play 3 rupturefexes if this comes to pass.

[mule]

Dec 19, 2019 19:27:30 GMT kazetanade said:

Zimko has correctly pointed out that we're already doubling damage against T8 - that GS unit now deals 21.6? damage on average to a Knight in a single combat phase. Previously, we needed TS in order to give them a fighting chance against Knights, but it made them too expensive and in a meta full of ignore LOS shooting for anti-infantry, being THAT fragile squishy expensive was bad.

Hormagants at 7pts is already pushing it IMO, and the damage output will never match anywhere near that of a Genestealer's, but it's a lot cheaper with a lot more bodies, and basically a lot more expendable. It does 60+%? of what a Genestealer squad would do for approx 60% of a Genestealer squad cost but also has more bodies to soak (conversely with lower T and no invul). If the TS arent really necessary (the Horms squad can actually go into Intercessors and kill them without needing TS), then running 3 x 30 Hormagants with the usual is going to be really strong since it's a cheap 150pts chaff unit that will also pack a surprise punch in melee no one expects, getting maybe 60% of the damage of a GS squad but costing around 40% of one.

The one I'm super excited to see is OOE or SL into Centurions with the Monstrous adaptation. People are gonna think "Free kill" then gawk in horror when OOE tears up 5 Centurions himself. Without Monstrous, they can also kill Aggressors really well, so we might not even need that Exo Drop in the end - The Exo specifically targets Aggressors, T7 Dreadnoughts, or other faction Fliers/Transports/Tanks, but has an extremely rough matchup against penalties to hit, since its shtick is +1 to hit proccing Symbiostorm. Trading the Exo drop for 2 x Mawlocs will be funny as heck - I think there's a toss up between these here.

I'm not loving the conceptual Toxicrene - IIRC, it's a 9" rerollable, 3d6 discard lowest - that gives it a 67%? Chance of making that charge? I really hate that odds for charging, even my GSC's 80% odds fail too often for me to be comfortable, and Toxicrene not making the charge is a death sentence to him and his protection target. If he had AG to make it at least 77%, which is good enough to make plans around, then he'd be a good contender for DS slots.

I still find myself coming to ask - why not Flyrants? They were good in a meta without Knights, facing some difficulties against the Kill Shot and Linked Prism Fire strategems (the former doesnt exist anymore and the latter only kills 1). They'll basically bully all the scoring and infantry out of the game, and as a 3 man will be able to face down sizeable threats that arent Knight level (which arent meta anymore).

I'm hesitant to put things on SL cause he's already a free target. I think buffing OOE is perfectly fine though.

I still love flyrant's they're the workhorse of our army but they're pretty expensive 624 for 3. I think the new toxin sac relic is actually really good on rending claw flyrants though.

[hiveoverall]

Mule I mathed it out and 4 attacks Is really not enough for that TS relic. I don’t see any unit in which it is worth btw (making it trash tier relic IMHO but I like the concept of it so please prove me wrong

[No One]

kazetanade said:

I still find myself coming to ask - why not Flyrants?

RG: everything's a threat, and the actual threats just casually murder you. Even aside from that, there's definitely damage enough to deal with flyrants in most SM lists (e.g. even a fist cent unit in tac can kill a flyrant), and I'm not sure they've got the impact fast enough: definitely possible though.

[papo28]

I really hate how they raised the price for TS on horms 60 points on a 150 pt unit is very very steep. Especially on t3 6+. I think they should charge on the unit kinda like a banner id be ok with a 10 point raise to 40 but 30pts is way to much. If you bring 2 units and want TS your better off just going with a third unit of 24 horms. TS are the most dissapointing thing to happen to nids in all these changes horms would have been somewhat competitive. Play behemoth cast +1 to wound then spend 1 cp for -1ap when outnumber and 1 cp for mortals on the charge all of a sudden you have what should have been a 180 pt unit thats throwing 60 ap1 hits with good chance to be 2 dmg a peice even against t6+ the perfect glass cannon that embodies nids. But now if you want TS theyre almost the same price as 20 electro priests that get a 3++ and 5+++ with d3 mortals on 6s

[kazetanade]

Dec 20, 2019 1:24:31 GMT No One said:

kazetanade said:

I still find myself coming to ask - why not Flyrants?

RG: everything's a threat, and the actual threats just casually murder you. Even aside from that, there's definitely damage enough to deal with flyrants in most SM lists (e.g. even a fist cent unit in tac can kill a flyrant), and I'm not sure they've got the impact fast enough: definitely possible though.

RG on turn 2, yes. Also only if pure, and it's a maybe 1 in 10 chance of meeting them (1 in 50 for me, there's only 1 RG player in this country because the play style is too hard for most SM players).

A fist cent is a bad example - that's meant to kill anything in the game. It kills Knights, it kills Mortarion, it kills hordes, it will definitely kill a Flyrant. That thing is DO NOT GET CHARGED PERIOD status man, charge them and kill them or do not attempt at all.

Most SM lists have these following to deal with Flyrants:

Dreadnoughts of various sizes (20 shots Levi orlascannon platforms)

Executioners

Aggressors

Punchy Cents

Smashcaps

Fringe Landspeeder play

And I think that's the whole list.

Smashcaps are a bit of a problem as they're difficult to remove surgically (you can absorb a double fight non BA cap, so no issue) , but otherwise for the rest we have good tools. An Exo drop will clear some Dreadnoughts or Aggressors, HG will mollify Execs or exposed Caps, and SL with his Monstrous buff will eat punchy Cents. The Flyrants can either bully shooty dreadnoughts or bully infantry and basically kick the game around from there.

[No One]

kazetanade said:

RG on turn 2, yes. Also only if pure, and it's a maybe 1 in 10 chance of meeting them (1 in 50 for me, there's only 1 RG player in this country because the play style is too hard for most SM players).

Yeah, where as here, last tournament 4 RG players, same as IH: admittedly 1 was mixed with a fists artillery det, but that was also the one running triple cents.

That thing is DO NOT GET CHARGED PERIOD status man, charge them and kill them or do not attempt at all.

You miss what sort of cent unit: I'm talking dakka cent, hence mention of tac. i.e. Siegebreaker, brutal vehicle killer. Still enough raw weight of dice to down a flyrant. Since most of that output is the hurricanes when you switch to tac, even RG without super doctrine, or WS, can basically kill a flyrant with assault cents just through shooting (captain+lieutenant or CM does ~11 wounds).

I dunno, just: basically every marine list will have some of those answers and I'm not seeing the rest of the list being quite effective enough at dealing with those threats against a competent player.

[topaxygourouni]

Flyrants are just a no go for me any more. 200+ pts for what? 4 str6 attacks in melee? yikes. sure you can compliment that with 12 devourer shots, but now we can have fexes that can advance and shoot, so we can get the same effect for literally half the price.

"But he's a jack of all trades". Still shouldn't cost 200+. Do you know who else costs 210 pts post CA? The new Keeper of Secrets, who is the same kind of psyker, equally fast if not faster (Warlord trait takes him to Movement 17), he is infinitely more killy (base str 8 sword, 10 attacks, flat 3 damage on everything, imposes heavy penalties on enemy units (-1 to hit aura, -1 to hit inflicted by the sword) and trades 1 invul save worse for +4 wounds, only he can also get a 6+++ for his troubles. Not to mention the drop dead gorgeous model.

If KoS is worth 210 pts, then a flyrant is flat out overcosted.


NOW FOR MY NEXT TRICK:

3 T-cytes with Venom Cannons, Jorm. 300 pts.

They all drop down, pop the spell for reroll hits. --> on avg 30 shots, 10 hits, 20 rerolls -> another 7 hits. Almost like a 3+ BS .

300 pts, 17 hits on venom cannons.

Who's bloody with me?